The reason so much of our youth reject Church teaching

[Lost_Wanderer]

How did humility and self-sacrifice cause you grief?

Quoting myself in case you missed it.

The only thing I learned from obedience was insecurity, fear, and how to diminish my own worth short of committing suicide.

Oh. And heartbreak.

 

[Rau]

Quoting myself in case you missed it.

I saw that, but those statements don’t reveal how those ends came about. (And it is certainly not self-evident). Perhaps you don’t want to say, which is fine. But absent substance, your posts convey a deep feeling of (unexplained) bitterness. Does “Lost Wanderer” continue to be an appropriate screen ID after so many thousands of posts?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I saw that, but those statements don’t reveal how those ends came about. (And it is certainly not self-evident). Perhaps you don’t want to say, which is fine.

Oh so you want the long version? I just don’t like repeating my words from scratch is all.

Here’s what I experienced growing up. I was mostly sent to Catholic schools from child, teenager, and all the way through college. I was taught Catechism in high school and my college Theology classes took care of elaborating on doctrine, sacraments, Church history etc.

Yet what did I ever use that faith for? Self-loathing.

The product of that was an anti-social outcast, average Juan, whose contempt for himself only reflected in contempt for others (and vice-versa). So, when I finally put a stop to it, my ‘faith’ suddenly lost its purpose.

In all honesty though, I don’t think you need a PhD to see how a sense of humility and self-sacrifice can easily turn one into a social, people-pleasing doormat as much as a saint.

But absent substance, your posts convey a deep feeling of (unexplained) bitterness

To you. I have to wonder why you are bothered by the idea that some beliefs which helped you have turned out to harm someone else.

 

[Rau]

Oh so you want the long version?

In all honesty though, I don’t think you need a PhD to see how a sense of humility and self-sacrifice can easily turn one into a social, people-pleasing doormat as much as a saint.

To you. I have to wonder why you are bothered by the idea that some beliefs which helped you have turned out to harm someone else.

The “long version” is no different and provides no insight at all. It asserts that your Catholic education assisted you in self-loathing, made you a social outcast with contempt for self and others. That’s another (longer) expression of an end result, but offers no explanation of how it did that.

Alas, I have no PhD, but I’m afraid I don’t see how Catholic teaching harmed you, only that you have been harmed by something.

The idea of certain beliefs “harming” doesn’t yet bother me, though I had hoped to learn exactly how. Then it might!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Alas, I have no PhD, but I’m afraid I don’t see how Catholic teaching harmed you, only that you have been harmed by something.

Is it that hard to figure out? What is the popular understanding of humility? Of self-sacrifice? Putting others before yourself.

You want to know how that can go wrong? Easy. Start thinking of yourself less and less until you start seeing yourself as less of a human being. The idea of humility is the best excuse for that, a gateway drug even. “I don’t deserve to be this happy.” “I’m a filthy sinner and need to confess less God looses Satan on me.” “This thing makes me happy. I should give it up forever because it is pleasing to God.” Seriously, it ain’t that hard to see how easily Catholics use their idea of humility to sound like spiritual masochists.

I’m sure somebody’s going to come at me and say that’s not what humility is so I’ll be blunt: Save your breath. I’m just talking about me. The same me that is just plain done with complicating his life with worry, guilt, and fearing the next devil’s curve ball while God watches from the cloudy bleachers.

 

[Rau]

…
You want to know how that can go wrong? Easy. Start thinking of yourself less and less until you start seeing yourself as less of a human being. The idea of humility is the best excuse for that, a gateway drug even. “I don’t deserve to be this happy.” “I’m a filthy sinner and need to confess less God looses Satan on me.” “This thing makes me happy. I should give it up forever because it is pleasing to God.” Seriously, it ain’t that hard to see how easily Catholics use their idea of humility to sound like spiritual masochists.

Why do you think it went wrong for you?

Did you give up something important in your life?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why do you think it went wrong for you?

Did you give up something important in you life?

Yep.

 

[Rau]

Yep.

Enlightening…. So you gave up something important, and that made you unhappy. Do you wish to elaborate on what you gave up and why?

 

[SecretCatholic]

I think most youth reject Church teaching because they don’t know what they really are or what they’re about. Understanding Catholicism means understanding a certain philosophical and theological take. Those are deep subjects. But they are hardly ever discussed seriously in pop culture. So most of the youth just gets sound bites and video clips from secular media- THAT’S their working knowledge of the church.

And of course, since most people are now spiritually lacking, they don’t get much from their homes ether. Sports and entertainment are all put ahead of spirituality and the church.There’s no Bishop Fulton Sheen on the airwaves anymore intelligently preaching the truth. No, there are a thousand protestant preachers talking about the end of times instead. Mom and dad are not praying the rosary with the children (I wasn’t even aware that this was a common practice in the past until recently!) or even going to mass regularly. if they do go to mass, they make sure to behave as unCatholic as possible afterwards, entertaining all sorts of contrary values.

I knew a Catholic couple once who regularly went to church but had no qualms about getting their teenager, who talked a great deal about the faith, a stolen iPod (from someone they knew). They apparently saw no contradiction with their faith here.

I’ve read most of the answers here…and so far very few are the answers that the youths in question seem to give, at least to me.
I’ve discussed this topic with many youths who were thoroughly taught the Catholic faith “properly” by their parents and church…and when asked why they do not consider themselves Catholic or go to church anymore (I assume that is what you mean when you say “reject”?), they have all said the same reasons to me:
That they thought through the Church teachings and some of the major ones did not make sense to them. That they studied the evolution of the religion, the teachings and the Christian canon those first several centuries and found them to be structured within and for the context of that era 2000 years ago, and deeply flawed and out of date for a world that has moved onward/forward since then with new thoughts and ideas and understanding about people and the world around us.

You must talk with very informed and cultured youth, because I know very few young people who have “studied the evolution of the religion, the teachings and the Christian canon those first several centuries” and have the necessary historical and philosophical sophistication to reasonably conclude that it is “structured within and for the context of that era 2000 years ago, and deeply flawed and out of date”, especially given the fact that this “deeply flawed and out of date” religion has survived 2,000 years past its prime. That’s really odd! And those “new thoughts and ideas and understanding about people and the world around us.” are not all that new at all, are they? Interestingly enough the Church has innovated many “new thoughts and ideas” in this two-millennium time span, including many of those which have shaped out post-modern lives.

If I were a betting man, I’d gamble that these are not the average youth you speak of.

I want to say, “Wait, I understand now and can explain it!” But that ship has sailed.

It may have sailed, but maybe you can sail along with it. Why not ask your children to join you in an explanation and exploration of the faith- maybe by watching Catholic videos (like Father Barron’s) or by having friendly discussions, just as a favor to you, without any pressure for conversion? If you can keep it friendly, I don’t see why it can’t be done!

I was raised atheist. I was never raised in the faith to begin with.

Wow! I wonder how many atheists later become religious or even highly spiritual?

While this is undoubtedly true of some people, I know several young adults who have a very good understanding of what the Church teaches. They just don’t believe it.

Understanding what the church teaches and why it teaches it are two different things. The latter is a subject of much contemplation and exploration.

 

[SecretCatholic]

People like to say that if you don’t agree with the Church, the fault lies with you because the Church is never wrong. A lot of people find that notion to be silly, pointless, and untenable. They simply have more skeptical personalities or perhaps like to ponder things more than others. And they can’t force themselves to believe, nor do they want to simply obey without understanding or agreement.

It’s my understanding that this would be against church teaching, as faith is a gift and the church teaches that one should not act against one’s conscience.

I have come to terms that perhaps I will never really understand many many issues nor believe in them with the same amount of faith other people sometimes seem to carry. That is ok for me, I have decided. I think I am more skeptical and ponder more than others. But this is the path I have chosen. I don’t know.

I think with everything in life you have to consider what your options are and what is your best option, according to your moral standards and your life situation. I think it was Churchill who said something like “Democracy is the worse system of government, except compared to everything else out there.” There is no perfection on this Earth. But one sticks with the best one possibly can. Personally, I think we are better off with the “errors” of religion than with the deeper, more fundamental errors of secularism. I, like you, find Catholicism my best option, given its apparent closeness to truth and moral values, even if I have trouble with this or that teaching.

I recently read a theory written “as fact” by a non-religious person on how religions tell you contradictory things on purpose to confuse you and ultimately make you “give up” and accept their authority. I find that an interesting, but rather cynical reading of reality. Aren’t we constantly being told to accept things on “authority” from the “experts” (who change their minds every few years) in secular society? Aren’t even scientists stumped by apparent contradictions in theories, observations, etc? Sometimes there are just things we don’t understand and we need to accept we don’t understand them, as long as the wholeness of the teachings and its practices are sound.

I’m sure somebody’s going to come at me and say that’s not what humility is so I’ll be blunt: Save your breath. I’m just talking about me. The same me that is just plain done with complicating his life with worry, guilt, and fearing the next devil’s curve ball while God watches from the cloudy bleachers.

So you want to rant about how humility made you an unhappy wreck, but you won’t accept that maybe you were going about it all wrong- that maybe humility is not what you thought it was. Because you know, “morality” wrecked my life, but if you’re going to tell me that that’s not what morality is about: save your breath! Either you want to discuss the issue honestly, or you prefer one-liners and drama, in which case maybe you should “save your breath” for more important discussions.

 

[shelby_sun]

Those who say youth today just don’t understand the Church’s teaching or why they teach what they do don’t seem to want to see that millions of youth are fully aware of both but just do not agree for very logical reasons; although not spiritual.

People fail to remember that today our youth are taught not to trust anyone, not strangers, teachers, coaches, priest, etc.at least not as much as we did growing up. They cannot walk down the street without considering that someone could attack them. They cannot drive home from their job at night without being careful because someone might be driving while drunk or texting. They cannot go to school without thinking someone might try to sell them drugs. Youth today have to worry about and consider bad things happening minute to minute. Why do you think there is so much drug abuse, they want to stop all that thinking and worrying.

To them all that Catholic teaching over the last 2000 years has not made the world a better place; in fact to them, it is a worse place. So of course it makes sense for them to question things, but of those that question certain things, they still adhere to the major teaching of the Church.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So you want to rant about how humility made you an unhappy wreck, but you won’t accept that maybe you were going about it all wrong- that maybe humility is not what you thought it was. Because you know, “morality” wrecked my life, but if you’re going to tell me that that’s not what morality is about: save your breath! Either you want to discuss the issue honestly, or you prefer one-liners and drama, in which case maybe you should “save your breath” for more important discussions.

Ahhh, the smell of my proven point and the rantings of someone who can’t accept their ideals have failed somebody.

Perhaps that’s why they’re your ideals and not mine.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Enlightening…. So you gave up something important, and that made you unhappy. Do you wish to elaborate on what you gave up and why?

No thanks. I don’t see any point. I’ve made myself clear enough.

 

[Rau]

Ahhh, the smell of my proven point and the rantings of someone who can’t accept their ideals have failed somebody.

You’ve certainly said that Catholic teaching failed you - actually you said it did far worse things to you. But you’ve not presented any detail to enable a discussion, or to enable anyone to understand your experience and perspective, much less to ‘prove’ anything. That may be what SecretCatholic was getting at.

 

[Rau]

No thanks. I don’t see any point. I’ve made myself clear enough.

No, not at all. But that’s fine.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You’ve certainly said that Catholic teaching failed you - actually you said it did far worse things to you. But you’ve not presented any detail to enable a discussion, or to enable anyone to understand your experience and perspective, much less to ‘prove’ anything. That may be what SecretCatholic was getting at.

What you’re suggesting is exactly why I’m even in this discussion.

Listen/read yourselves. You and the rest of the Church speak here as if you could somehow fix all the woes and failures of this religion by asking for more details on an online message board. You want to get more personal in the hopes you could sway everyone with a dissenting opinion to change their life.

But can you?

Even the mods understand that such is overestimating the value of online forums.

Even if I laid out the great ill that certain Christian values have cultured in my life, what can you do? None of you hang with me at lunch or greet me when I come home. Had you fit such a description, you’d stand a slightly better chance.

Perhaps that is why much of us in the Millennial generation have ceased valuing the Church. The Church still seems too full of those detached from their experience.

 

[JimG]

Those who say youth today just don’t understand the Church’s teaching or why they teach what they do don’t seem to want to see that millions of youth are fully aware of both but just do not agree for very logical reasons; although not spiritual.

People fail to remember that today our youth are taught not to trust anyone, not strangers, teachers, coaches, priest, etc.at least not as much as we did growing up. They cannot walk down the street without considering that someone could attack them. They cannot drive home from their job at night without being careful because someone might be driving while drunk or texting. They cannot go to school without thinking someone might try to sell them drugs. Youth today have to worry about and consider bad things happening minute to minute. Why do you think there is so much drug abuse, they want to stop all that thinking and worrying.

To them all that Catholic teaching over the last 2000 years has not made the world a better place; in fact to them, it is a worse place. So of course it makes sense for them to question things, but of those that question certain things, they still adhere to the major teaching of the Church.

Indeed, the world is a worse place for them than it was for previous generations. If they look at the matter closely, it seems apparent that it began to get increasingly worse just at the point when Catholic teachings were beginning to be largely abandoned.

As for whether or not millions of youth have diligently studied but rejected Church teachings, I have my doubts. In an era of reduced attention spans, just how earnestly do they study such matters?

Lately I have been watching the EWTN series “Journey Home” by Marcus Grodi, streaming the archived videos. In what seems to be an age of unbelief, I was interested to hear the thought process of those who were going towards Catholicism rather than away from it. There are a lot of different stories, but in some ways similar. Many considered the matter for a number of years of prayer and study. Many began by rejecting certain doctrines, and yet after study ended up accepting them. So there must be something different going on than just, ‘well, I’ve given these things a lot of thought but I don’t accept them,’ because other thoughtful persons have reached just the opposite conclusions.

 

[shelby_sun]

Indeed, the world is a worse place for them than it was for previous generations. If they look at the matter closely, it seems apparent that it began to get increasingly worse just at the point when Catholic teachings were beginning to be largely abandoned.

As for whether or not millions of youth have diligently studied but rejected Church teachings, I have my doubts. In an era of reduced attention spans, just how earnestly do they study such matters?

Lately I have been watching the EWTN series “Journey Home” by Marcus Grodi, streaming the archived videos. In what seems to be an age of unbelief, I was interested to hear the thought process of those who were going towards Catholicism rather than away from it. There are a lot of different stories, but in some ways similar. Many considered the matter for a number of years of prayer and study. Many began by rejecting certain doctrines, and yet after study ended up accepting them. So there must be something different going on than just, ‘well, I’ve given these things a lot of thought but I don’t accept them,’ because other thoughtful persons have reached just the opposite conclusions.

Yes, but after studying and praying for a number of years those youths comes to change their beliefs as adults, many who want to go back and marry in the church or baptize their child as Catholic. They simple are no longer youths.

I am not going to debate how many are or are not studying or understanding the Church’s teachings. I have worked in a Catholic high school for twenty years and have 3 teenagers of my own. The school has 1100 students so I am very familiar with how much they are being taught, what their beliefs are, and why they believe what they do.

 

[EasterJoy]

Your understanding of my words is incomplete. Why did you leave out the Church? You and the Church are the ones proclaiming all these things about God yet when so-called ‘God’ acts inconsistently, the institution persists in its demand for obedience.

Sorry, not buying it.

Congrats, you just demonstrated the very problem that was inflicted upon me by modern Christianity. And by problem, I don’t mean some philosophical ambivalence. I’m talking a real, personal issue which can boast nothing in my life save being a major cause of drama.

You presume that man is but a tiny ant in the cosmos. That he’s nothing more than a little speck who should only bow down and eat the soup of his circumstances like a good boy. Never mind the possibility that maybe, there are those who actually get more help if they learn to help themselves. That they win the friendship and respect of others because they befriended and respected themselves first. Not the other way around, as you and the Faith are so fond of suggesting.

I noticed you never answered that little question of mine by the way. You might be comfortable with the idea that we get the good and bad in life thrown at us without a choice. I don’t. Not anymore. Perhaps if you were to know me personally, you’d have reason to fear for this change in perspective.

I’m afraid you’d just be very much alone though. For a person who has ceased caring for anyone besides himself, my friends and family like me better now.

So in essence, you really have no qualms with believing that you are but some piece for the divine and the demonic to squabble over.

And here I thought Greek paganism had nothing in common with Christianity.

If you want to gather up your portion of the inheritance and leave, no one will stop you. We hope you will be back before you go through it. :sad_bye:

 

[Rau]

What you’re suggesting is exactly why I’m even in this discussion.

Listen/read yourselves. You and the rest of the Church speak here as if you could somehow fix all the woes and failures of this religion by asking for more details on an online message board. You want to get more personal in the hopes you could sway everyone with a dissenting opinion to change their life…

Even if I laid out the great ill that certain Christian values have cultured in my life, what can you do?..

I honestly don’t know your motivations - you present yourself as harmed by the Christian faith but don’t care to expose how that happened other than to say it’s all the fault of humility and self-sacrifice. Does your experience point to failure of a Religion, a failure of teaching, of pastoral care, or something entirely different? Does your experience provide a cautionary tale for others to learn from? Who knows!