The reasoning behind Mary

[po18guy]

You believe in the Communion of Saints. Great!

Name a greater Saint than the Blessed Virgin (whom Christ created to be His mother) - the only one with Him from virgin womb to virgin tomb. I have always enjoyed this vid linking the scriptures to Mary.

 

[John10]

This is the kind of thing that kind of turns me off when people talk about Marian devotion and makes me fearful to pursue it at a distance closer than a 10 foot pole, to be honest. I want that intimacy with Christ where I know I can go to Him without being rejected, as unworthy as I am. So, to see someone suggest I shouldn’t go directly to Him at all scares me off.

You are free to pursue what you think it is best, but I believe you are making a big mistake by dismissing our Blessed Mother. As Saint Louis de Montfort said:

1. If we examine narrowly the rest of our Blessed Lord’s Life, we shall see that it was His Will to begin His miracles by Mary. He sanctified St. John in the womb of St. Elizabeth his mother; but it was by Mary’s word. No sooner had she spoken than John was sanctified; and this was His first and greatest miracle of grace.

At the marriage at Cana He changed the water into wine; but it was at Mary’s humble prayer; and this was His first miracle of nature. He has begun and continued His miracles by Mary, and He will continue them to the end of ages by Mary also.

Not only that She is the one our Lord revealed to us will eventually crush the serpent’s head (Lucifer) in the final battler (Genesis). To no other has God granted such power over evil.

Lastly but not least the Angel that appeared to Mary asked Her permission so that Christ could come! Our eternal redemption at one point depended on Mary consenting so that Christ could come to Her. The Angel clearly mentioned She was full of grace, to no other human has that mention been given in the Bible.

Sure you can still go to Christ directly, however I believe those who seek Christ through Mary have a significant advantage compared to those who dismissed Her.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

To me at least, with the information I’ve gathered, it feels like an extra step. Can’t I ask her Son to lead me more and more to Himself? Teach me new things about Himself? Ask Him what I should pray for? And so on?

Yeah, you can do that.

I like to ask them BOTH.

If you wanted a favor from a really powerful king, and you had a chance to ask him for the favor and also ask his mother to help you get the favor from the king, would you just skip talking to his mother because “it’s an extra step”?

Most of us like talking to Mary. We’re not doing it because we somehow can’t go to Jesus directly. We just like her. We LOVE her. She loves us.

Why would you reject the help of Jesus’ mom who loves you?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I sometimes ask Jesus to help me understand His mother, because all I want is to become closer to Him in anyway I can.

Out of all the humans who ever lived on earth, Mary was the one who was closest to Jesus. He was born of her flesh. She literally gave him life. She was closer to him than anybody ever was. She still is.

So if you want to become closer to Jesus, why would you not want to imitate and seek the help of the human closest to Jesus, ever?

Hail Holy Queen

She’s the Queen of Heaven, that’s a Church teaching, no problem there

Mother of Mercy,

Jesus is Mercy, she’s his mother

our life, our sweetness, and our hope

Jesus is all these things, she leads us closer to Jesus, she’s all these things too

to thee do we cry…

Kids cry to their mothers all the time. It’s pretty natural for those of us who’ve had a loving mother to turn to Mary in this way.

Turn then, most gracious advocate

She is our advocate before Jesus. Again, this is Church teaching.

thine eyes of mercy towards us …

You think that Jesus being merciful means Mary can’t also be merciful? Perhaps more merciful? In Scripture, she’s the one who tells Jesus the couple is out of wine. It doesn’t seem like he was going to do anything about it before she asked him. Might she not also ask for mercy for us and convince him to be merciful? I realize one is not required to believe in Vatican approved apparitions, but several of them indicate that Mary has actually done just this, gone to her Son and asked him to be merciful to humans committing sins.

These seem like more appropriate ways to address our Lord than His mother in my mind.

It’s not an either-or. Everything Mary does, she does for the glory of God aka Jesus.
Everything Mary does, she is tasked with doing by God. She didn’t just go off on her own and do it. She’s carrying out God’s will.
Jesus also wants us to address His mother in this way.

By resisting it, you’re actually driving yourself farther from Jesus by not accepting God’s will as manifested in the teachings of God’s very own church. You’ve decided, “Oh, I know better, I don’t need Mary, I don’t want Mary, I just want to be close to Jesus on my own! I should be able to do that and just leave Mary out of the picture. My will be done, not God’s will.”

Unfortunately, millions of Protestants and even many Catholics have made the same sad mistake.
They’re only hurting themselves.

 

[BlueMaxx]

I would start here…it really cleared things up for me…

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm

Also, think of the OT and the Ark of God…and then sort of take that forward to understand that Mary’s womb was the new ark carrying the new Adam and the new covenant…

I hope that helps…

 

[roseproject]

By resisting it, you’re actually driving yourself farther from Jesus by not accepting God’s will as manifested in the teachings of God’s very own church. You’ve decided, “Oh, I know better, I don’t need Mary, I don’t want Mary, I just want to be close to Jesus on my own! I should be able to do that and just leave Mary out of the picture. My will be done, not God’s will.”

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe I can do it on my own at all. Any desire I have to follow the Lord is by His grace given to me. Because He wanted me first. By myself, I can’t so much as take a step in His direction. He gave me that ability.

I have no problem asking her to pray for me as I ask the other saints to (except she is on a whole other level). It’s the I can only go to Jesus through her that confuses and troubles me.

You think that Jesus being merciful means Mary can’t also be merciful? Perhaps more merciful? In Scripture, she’s the one who tells Jesus the couple is out of wine. It doesn’t seem like he was going to do anything about it before she asked him. Might she not also ask for mercy for us and convince him to be merciful?

I didn’t mean she can’t be merciful… but that mercy stemmed from her Son wanting to manifest His mercy through her, right? So, to suggest Mary can be more merciful than her son is a strange thing to say, because her mercy originated from Him.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I can only go to Jesus through her that confuses and troubles me.

No one has ever taught that. We cannot ONLY go to Jesus through Mary.
We go through Mary because it is the quickest, best and surest route to Jesus. Not because we can’t get to Jesus otherwise.

If you were going to the grocery store and used Google Maps to get a route, and it showed you two routes, and the first one took an hour and the second one took 2 hours and was miles longer, both routes would get you to the grocery store, but most people would choose the first one because it’s shorter and faster. Likewise, if you choose to go to Jesus through Mary, it’s like you chose the faster and better route. But you can still get to Jesus on your own, it’s just not the “best route”.

that mercy stemmed from her Son wanting to manifest His mercy through her, right? So, to suggest Mary can be more merciful than her son is a strange thing to say, because her mercy originated from Him.

It’s not strange. Scripture has several instances where a patriarch, prophet or saint begged God for mercy or a favor, and God granted the favor, indicating that without the request he wouldn’t have granted it. One of these instances is Mary convincing Jesus to help the wedding couple at Cana. In each case it could be argued that the saint arguing with God was feeling/ showing more mercy than God was feeling/ showing at that moment. At Cana, God (Jesus) let himself be convinced by Mary. She’s our advocate before Jesus, she can convince him.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S8VQoGvyi90J:https://relevantmagazine.com/god/4-people-who-successfully-argued-god/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_en|lang_es

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Like, didn’t she give birth to the true source or our joy? Not become that joy?

The joy is Jesus, so she is the source of Jesus or Jesus came from her. Physically speaking of course.

 

[goout]

So, as of late, the reasoning of our devotion to Mary as an intercessor has been kind of tricky point for me. Like, I know the Church encourages us to go to her for help, for her to lead us to her Son, teach us about her Son, teach us what are good things to pray for, etc.

To me at least, with the information I’ve gathered, it feels like an extra step. Can’t I ask her Son to lead me more and more to Himself? Teach me new things about Himself? Ask Him what I should pray for? And so on?

Yes, I do pray to the saints for their intersession for certain things (St. Michael has been a big one in our family lately). But the difference between the other saints and the Blessed Virgin is that we pray to them to intercede for specific needs, whereas in Mary’s case, not only are we encouraged to pray to her to intercede for specific needs for certain areas in our life, but is one who is meant to “leads us to her son”… which seems like something that He can do Himself… This is where I get confused.

On a related note, I came to an interesting conclusion about her the other day which I want to confirm or correct…

If we are, as the Church, and particularly through the Eucharist, joined together as one body in Christ, does it then follow that since Mary gave birth to Christ, did she in a sense carry US in her womb and gave birth to us in a spiritual sense?

Any help is appreciated. I sometimes ask Jesus to help me understand His mother, because all I want is to become closer to Him in anyway I can. This has just been a stumper for me lately.

God Bless <3

Consider:
You are asking people on this forum to straighten this out, but the Mother of Christ doesn’t merit a conversation?
This is only a problem if you don’t believe Mary is living.

 

[roseproject]

This I have no problem with at all.

Ok, for an example take the Memorare prayer…

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins my Mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me, Amen.

Some of the prayer that are regularly said to her sound like they are asking for her to me, in herself, the one who answers our prayer, when it is God who answers by her intersession. Mary asks, God answers. I don’t know if I’m just reading into it too much or…

It would seem that the goal of Marian Devotion is to have her as the best saint to go to for intersession. “The prayers of the righteous avail much.” To go to her to ask God to answer us. Not for her in herself to answer us.

 

[roseproject]

I do ask her and her son for understanding of her role. Everyone in Heaven is more alive than we are, after all…

 

[goout]

This is I have no problem with at all.

Ok, for an example take the Memorare prayer…

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins my Mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me, Amen.

Some of the prayer that are regularly said to her sound like they are asking for her to me, in herself, the one who answers our prayer, when it is God who answers by her intersession. Mary asks, God answers. I don’t know if I’m just reading into it too much or…

It would seem that the goal of Marian Devotion is to have her as the best saint to go to for intersession. “The prayers of the righteous avail much.” To go to her to ask God to answer us. Not for her in herself to answer us.

Hyperbole is part of human expression.
If two lovers speak about one another, they might speak in words and tones that are shocking to an onlooker. To the beloveds, it is an expression of the deep relationship they have.
Don’t let passionate expression shock you. You seem to have a Christ centered focus already.

 

[goout]

Here’s a blog along those lines that appreciates passionate expression as part of devotion:

https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/in-defense-of-exaggerated-marian-devotion/21691/

 

[roseproject]

It’s not strange. Scripture has several instances where a patriarch, prophet or saint begged God for mercy or a favor, and God granted the favor, indicating that without the request he wouldn’t have granted it. One of these instances is Mary convincing Jesus to help the wedding couple at Cana. In each case it could be argued that the saint arguing with God was feeling/ showing more mercy than God was feeling/ showing at that moment. At Cana, God (Jesus) let himself be convinced by Mary. She’s our advocate before Jesus, she can convince him.

But she (and others who petitioned to God similarly) was inspired to do so only by God’s prompting and grace, being Full of Grace as she is. It feels like a which came first, the chicken or the egg situation.

 

[goout]

Marina devotion is incarnational.
Because Christ fully enters into the human condition, we have a fully human Christ to appreciate along with his divinity.

It’s important to remember: Christ is not a gnostic spiritual being, Christ is true God AND true man.
And so Christ has everything a human being has (but sin)::

An instituted Church as part of His real Body which he founded in real time, real space, with real people.
He speaks, he acts, he dies a death and rises from the dead corporeally,
And
Christ has a mother.

All based in his Incarnation.

 

[Brendan_64]

A very good post.

 

[BlueMaxx]

971 " All generations will call me blessed ": "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . *This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m sorry, but if you’re going to have this problem not only with Mary but with all Saints who freely choose to have a relationship with God and try to intercede with him, then you basically don’t accept the idea of saints having free will and are treating them all, including Mary, like they are little robots. You also are rejecting the whole idea of intercession.

 

[Rhubarb]

I was raised Lutheran and the church I was confirmed in was in general very hostile to Mary. I never understood why. On one hand they’d say praying to saints is superstitious, while on the other hand they’d fold their hands, look upwards and say something like “Grandma, help me be patient”. Even as a 12 year old boy I saw this as inconsistent.

I always got the impression that the Holy Family was treated as, well, a family by Catholics. I don’t know what’s wrong with going to someone’s mother for a little extra nudge on someone. It’s pretty clear to me from my readings of scripture that Mary holds a special place in creation. I don’t know why that should change in heaven.

It wouldn’t be the first time Mary convinced Jesus to intercede for others. (Wedding at Cana)

 

[BlueMaxx]

When I was “away” from the Catholic Church and basically going to a reformed theology church they to were hostile towards praying to any dead saints especially Mary.
Their reasoning is once one is dead, there is nothing they can do for you and it is in a sort of way insulting to Christ. That believe only He can effect your salvation.
When I first joined CAF a certain member here addressed my concerns on Mary worship…then after actually starting to read the Catechism and going to adoration, speaking with a priest and looking deeper into it it all started to click.
We worship Christ, we implore His Mother to intercede…there is a vast difference. “We” do not hold Mary above Christ but venerate her for what her role was and acknowledge Christ listens to His mother.

It is hard to break free from some beliefs we were raised to believe or learned for years…but looking at what the Church really teaches can open ones eyes and definitely change our perspective.