The Tridnetne Mass made chages to the Old Sarum Rite. Neither, however, were the same as the Liturgy that was celebrated in the 1st and 2nd century. So what makes the Tridentine Mass superior to all the rest?(other than your opinion)
No-what i am saying is that the Tridentine Mass has no more claim of superiority than any other Mass/liturgy clebrated in the last 2,000 years.
I have heard this argument by modernist Catholics defending modern liturgy as well as by protestants defending thier praise and worship services.
The TLM did not affect the old Sarum rite- they were quite different except the Ordinaries had common features and the Canon and parts immediately after the Canon were same. The Sarum rite died out because of the loss of the Catholic faith in England and the fact that therefore many of the priests were trained on the Continent.
Latin, it doesn’t surprise me that you lump modern liturgies that are not celebrated in your preference for latin, into the mode of your last paragraph. Maybe a handful of parishes, 0.01%, once upon a time did engage in liturgical dance, but it has been stopped. I have been to many, many masses in diverse places, and none of this is the norm as you would have us believe.
keeping in mind not only the Second Vatican Council but all other Councils of the Church which are all equally binding.
That’s interesting stuff, but what about this:
I was just reading Don Bosco’s vision about the Barque of Peter last night. The thing that struck me was that the “flagship” never wavered even when the battle and storm was raging around it. She tried to have tactical meetings with the other ships crews but it was always stopped by the storm. The funny thing is that the other ships went off course or were destroyed while they were trying to defend the “flagship” and yet the “flagship”, no matter how hard it was went perfectly on course.
I am not sure how you construed my words the way you did. There was no lumping in my words. We could probably agree on the liturgical dance thing. I have only seen it once, at a Cathedral no less that was celebrating a local Jazz festival and they brought a entire Marti Gras parade up and down all the isles for the opening processional. It was very sad.
It is so very easy to take a person’s words out of context, such as USMC did above with Pope Paul VI’s document. Not having the book, and not being able to read it in context, this proves nothing at all, just because Pope Benedict purportedly said it.
Could not disagree more. The core of the Eucharist was proscribed by Jesus himself and many of the elments in it are derived from The Book of Revleations. There is NO childs play in bread and wine becoming the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior and nothing childish about consuming his body and drinking his blood.
Excuse me for not making myself clear, but the concluding sentence of that first paragraph was:
The context for the Holy Father’s words are very easy. The quote was the preface of the book that I cited. The author approached the Holy Father and asked him if he would review his book and then write the preface which is the introduction to the book. That quote was the entire preface, and it clearly stands on its own. There is no additional context beyond that.
No, you did not say that, but in citing the quote from the Pope in your referenced book about these two controversial “binding” issues, says to me that you disagree, but are willing to abide by them … for now. It also says to me that you were a little anxious that others are be acquainted with the Pope’s bias. I wouldn’t be too eager to etch it in stone, Latin, for although he personally is in favor of it, this must be approved in collaboration with the full Magisterium.
You are not wrong. It truly hurts me to say that but you are not wrong. Many Catholics would recoil and run if they were suddenly faced with Traditional Catholicism, and that includes many many new converts. People have become used to the casual informality that fills the Church these days. Many people are apparently unaware that the Priest in his capacity at Mass is not just another member of the congregation who gets to preach. many people actually like the fact that experimentation is allowed in the Mass and that one never really knows what to expect.
Not only that, but most of these modernists who love to taunt traditionalist with the “we must obey the Pope” line … they would be the first to thumb their noses at the Holy Father if he did recind the NO and call for a return to the TLM.
Pope’s Bias? The Ex Cathedra authority of the Holy Father should not be discounted to a bias. I think the better term for this authority is revealed truth.
To correct the abuses does not require any changes to Canon Law, Papal Encyclicals, Councils, or Synodal Exhortations. It just requires dicipline. [Agreed, but a Pope will not arbitrarily do so without consulting many of his constituents before enacting a change.]
Quite true. It amazes me that so many people on both sides of the coin have forgotten the word obedience.