The Red Heifer Sacrifice ... and its import to the 3rd Jewish Temple

[GEddie]

The Temple Mount and Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel) Faithful Movement is a fringe Jewish Orthodox movement that a majority of Jews don’t take seriously. For the 3rd temple to be built, this fringe group will have to eliminate Islam, because I can’t see Muslems taking the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al-Aqsa mosque to Mecca without brute force (or a major war)

The buildings can’t physically be moved; they are monuments of world-class size.
They do not need to be moved, and WW3 need not be fought to rebuild the temple (although it may result from that) because there is a possibility, if Israel and Islam were at peace, the Dome and Temple could stand side by side. Some scholars believe the Dome is actually about 50m from the Temple’s old foundations. There is room on the mount for at least a modest temple at the Dome’s side.

Would someone please find me one resource on this topic that does not imply the Catholic Church and the United Nations to be the Beast and the False Prophet, or the Church running a New World Order, or the Pope being the anti-Christ, or the Pope dominating Jersalem or any of the usual paranoid anti-Catholic hate propaganda?

Try David Lewis’ PROPHECY 2000. True, the title is dated now, but Lewis was a standout in NOT tying prophetic fulfillment to the millennial year. This book describes the temple project, including the Temple Institute and the possible location beside the Dome, as well as other prophetic topics. There is no critical mention of the Catholic Church in this book.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Danno2281]

I, for one, am not at all satisfied that there will be any third temple. “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.” There is absolutely no reason for a 3rd temple for its sacrifices have been superseded by Christ’s sacrifice. The olive tree that was Israel is the Church. References to the temple in the last days and to the coming to the temple may well be references to the conversion of the Jews to the real place of sacrifice, the Body of Christ. The levitical priesthood is now held by presumption only because the genealogies have been destroyed, and genealogy alone, with or without scientific reference, establishes priesthood in Judaism (lab results can be manipulated), just as Apostolic succession is necessary for our priesthood. By that same token, descent from David would be impossible to prove for any Messianic claimant. The kingdom has been established by Christ and no rival kingdom can succeed, with or without a red heifer.

 

[brb3]

I, for one, am not at all satisfied that there will be any third temple. “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.” There is absolutely no reason for a 3rd temple for its sacrifices have been superseded by Christ’s sacrifice. The olive tree that was Israel is the Church. References to the temple in the last days and to the coming to the temple may well be references to the conversion of the Jews to the real place of sacrifice, the Body of Christ. The levitical priesthood is now held by presumption only because the genealogies have been destroyed, and genealogy alone, with or without scientific reference, establishes priesthood in Judaism (lab results can be manipulated), just as Apostolic succession is necessary for our priesthood. By that same token, descent from David would be impossible to prove for any Messianic claimant. The kingdom has been established by Christ and no rival kingdom can succeed, with or without a red heifer.

I agree that all the OT prophesies and Revelations are hard to incorporate within our Catholic understandings on Christ and the Church. They only seem to make sense if the Church is Raptured BEFORE the Last Days.

There seems to be a two track course in prophesy. At least a double meaning … .one for the Church and one for Israel and the Temple. Christ returns to take his Church to Heaven … but, to fight for and reestablish his Jewish people in a Temple that He & DAVID will reign over. The 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. Actually, an EVERLASTING Kingdom.
And, it appears the Christians might be instrumental in ‘fighting’ with Christ in the great battle … to bring this about.

We say ONE WAY to God … thru the Church. And we know this is true and revealed in NT scriptures. But, the OT End Time prophesy is very difficult [for me] to incorporate into my Catholic understandings.

I’m hoping some here can help me put the pieces together. For example, Ezekiel spends over half of his LONG book discussing the End Times and the rebuilding of the Final Jewish Temple. And, it is clearly not Temple #2. In fact, he describes what I would call TEMPLE # 4. A Temple built by Christ, and ruled with Prince DAVID at his side.

Do we toss the Book of Ezekiel out of our Catholic Bibles ? We cannot. We need to understand the Jewish issue better. Help me !

 

[juliamajor]

I agree that all the OT prophesies and Revelations are hard to incorporate within our Catholic understandings on Christ and the Church. They only seem to make sense if the Church is Raptured BEFORE the Last Days.

There seems to be a two track course in prophesy. At least a double meaning … .one for the Church and one for Israel and the Temple. Christ returns to take his Church to Heaven … but, to fight for and reestablish his Jewish people in a Temple that He & DAVID will reign over. The 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. Actually, an EVERLASTING Kingdom.
And, it appears the Christians might be instrumental in ‘fighting’ with Christ in the great battle … to bring this about.

We say ONE WAY to God … thru the Church. And we know this is true and revealed in NT scriptures. But, the OT End Time prophesy is very difficult [for me] to incorporate into my Catholic understandings.

I’m hoping some here can help me put the pieces together. For example, Ezekiel spends over half of his LONG book discussing the End Times and the rebuilding of the Final Jewish Temple. And, it is clearly not Temple #2. In fact, he describes what I would call TEMPLE # 4. A Temple built by Christ, and ruled with Prince DAVID at his side.

Do we toss the Book of Ezekiel out of our Catholic Bibles ? We cannot. We need to understand the Jewish issue better. Help me !

Rapture is not part of Catholic theology.There is a book out on the Catholic view called “The Rapture Trap”

 

[PeterK]

I just hope when it’s finally built that you don’t have to park a mile away, and that the exits and entrances are clearly marked, and that restrooms are easy to find, and it has nice gift shop inside with reasonable prices, and the interior lighting is good so my pictures aren’t dark, and that there are frequent tours so the groups are not too big or the waits too long, and the tour guide is easy to understand, and that maybe a little cafe with a cute name like ‘Solomon’s Portico’ is handy and reasonably priced, and that there’s some stuff for children like maybe a big sandbox called ‘The Wilderness’, and maybe it will be possible to get some Temple-Domer two-for-one tour packages, and that there’s some livestock slaughtering presentations with that audience participation thing going, and if we can keep the army personnel with their machine guns and missile launchers as low profile as possible that would help.

Anyway, you get the idea, I just hope they do it up right.:yup:

PeterK

 

[juliamajor]

I just hope when it’s finally built that you don’t have to park a mile away, and that the exits and entrances are clearly marked, and that restrooms are easy to find, and it has nice gift shop inside with reasonable prices, and the interior lighting is good so my pictures aren’t dark, and that there are frequent tours so the groups are not too big or the waits too long, and the tour guide is easy to understand, and that maybe a little cafe with a cute name like ‘Solomon’s Portico’ is handy and reasonably priced, and that there’s some stuff for children like maybe a big sandbox called ‘The Wilderness’, and maybe it will be possible to get some Temple-Domer two-for-one tour packages, and that there’s some livestock slaughtering presentations with that audience participation thing going, and if we can keep the army personnel with their machine guns and missile launchers as low profile as possible that would help.

Anyway, you get the idea, I just hope they do it up right.:yup:

PeterK

 

[Danno2281]

First of all, any “rapture” other than the one Pajul speaks of (after the resurrection of the dead, [1Thes,4:16]) is con trary to Christ’s prayer in Jn, 17:15. A fourth Temple (Herod’s was the third, Zorobabel’s was the second) would seem to be contrary to Christ’s words (Jn, 4:23) to the Samaritan woman’s query. Remember that this was attempted by the emperor Julian (“the apostate”) to demonstrate the falseity of Christian belief - the construction was destroyed, along with the workers, by earthquake.
You are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. Another temple in Jerusalem has absolutely nothing to recommend it.

 

[GEddie]

I just hope when it’s finally built that you don’t have to park a mile away, and that the exits and entrances are clearly marked, and that restrooms are easy to find, and it has nice gift shop inside with reasonable prices, and the interior lighting is good so my pictures aren’t dark, and that there are frequent tours so the groups are not too big or the waits too long, and the tour guide is easy to understand, and that maybe a little cafe with a cute name like ‘Solomon’s Portico’ is handy and reasonably priced, and that there’s some stuff for children like maybe a big sandbox called ‘The Wilderness’, and maybe it will be possible to get some Temple-Domer two-for-one tour packages, and that there’s some livestock slaughtering presentations with that audience participation thing going, and if we can keep the army personnel with their machine guns and missile launchers as low profile as possible that would help.

Anyway, you get the idea, I just hope they do it up right.:yup:

PeterK

LOL!!!

Forget it, I’ve been to the Temple Mount; there is no good parking for 2km and you have to go through 2 checkpoints to get to it. The Temple Mount is about pilgrimage, not tourism, there is a difference.

ICXC NIKA

 

[JustaServant]

THE NEW TEMPLE AND THE SECOND COMING, by G. Jeffrey, 2007

Has not an ounce of Anti-Catholic propaganda in its pages. A great read for $10 @ B & Noble.

Oh my goodness…Grant Jeffery…haven’t heard that name in years.
He’s what even many evangelicals call a “prophecy pimp”, no offense intended. He led the “Bible Code” hoax back in the 1990s and the even worse “Y2K” hoax ten years ago. To even suggest him as an authority on ANYTHING is laughable. Hal Lindsay has more credibility.

brb, I warn you again. Delving into this prophecy fiction is not going to be enlightening to your soul. It is not only a royal waste of time, it WILL, guarenteed, lead you away from the Church. Take the advice from someone who has been there.

 

[JustaServant]

First of all, any “rapture” other than the one Pajul speaks of (after the resurrection of the dead, [1Thes,4:16]) is con trary to Christ’s prayer in Jn, 17:15. A fourth Temple (Herod’s was the third, Zorobabel’s was the second) would seem to be contrary to Christ’s words (Jn, 4:23) to the Samaritan woman’s query.** Remember that this was attempted by the emperor Julian (“the apostate”) to demonstrate the falseity of Christian belief - the construction was destroyed, along with the workers, by earthquake.**
You are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. Another temple in Jerusalem has absolutely nothing to recommend it.

Bingo. A fact many evangelicals (and those fooled by their propaganda) want to gloss over.

 

[JustaServant]

Ezekiel 40-48 is a prophetic vision of the person and work of Jesus Christ. We see the stream flowing from the temple and growing ever larger, which seems to correlate with the Jesus’ words in John 4 about the water that truly satisfies and steams of living waters. There is sin offering mentioned in Ezekiel 42, again indicating the work of Christ on behalf of His people.
Dispensationalism teaches a re-built temple as part of its misunderstanding of the nature of the Kingdom of God. Dispensationalism sees two different “kingdoms” one for people with some Jewish ancestory and one for everyone else. It teaches the first is based on earthly promises, the second based on “spiritual” promises.
John 2:19 tells us Jesus is the eternal temple that the previous were all pointing to. Dispensationalism confuses much of what is fulfilled in Christ, and therefore attaches significance to that. God judged rejection of the true temple, Jesus in 70AD.

 

[brb3]

Dispensationalism confuses much of what is fulfilled in Christ, and therefore attaches significance to that. God judged rejection of the true temple, Jesus in 70AD.

Yes, but that is past tense. John got his vision AFTER this date.

And, we know that the Jewish people were severely judged with the Chaldean and Babylonian Captivity & destruction of Temple #1. Yes, God still loved his special 12 Tribes … and brought them back to build Temple #2.

The fact they got severely judged in 70AD with loss of Temple 2 … doesn’t PRECLUDE a 3rd Temple. The OT prophets all speak to the certitude that God will never utterly reject his own kinship. Christ always spoke and ministered first to his own, and then to the gentiles. He even taught in scripture that its by his grace that the gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree. The Church needs to see itself in Christian-Zionist ways. The Olive Tree concept is still bedrock theology.

Anytime the Jews repent of their error, Christ [Moses & ALL the OT saints & prophets] hear their prayers. Whenever they as a Nation repent in sackcloth/ashes, desire illumination, and pray to receive their King — Christ, Mary, and the Apostles will come to their rescue. Especially St. Paul. He knows he would of died with errant theology … but, for Christ having shown great mercy to him.

Perhaps God is waiting for the Church to Evangelize and befriend the Jews in a sincere way. We do know that our Church history on this matter is less than ideal. For a long time we seemed to write them off … believing we ‘inherited’ their position [errant replacement theology]. I’m glad to see recent Popes address this matter. Ecumenism is not just directed towards Protestants and Eastern Church.

 

[mark_a]

You seem to think re-establishing animal sacrifice is a good thing. Could you answer to (not so simple) questions?

1.) Why do you think the Jews re-establishing a system of animal sacrifice is a good thing?

2.) Is there anything in Catholic thought prior to the 20th century that indicates that the Catholic Church believed re-establishing animal sacrifice would be pleasing to God?

Good points.

I met a rapturist a few years ago who thought that animal sacrifices would resume during the thousand year reign when Christ comes back after the rapture to save his people, the Jews.

 

[Danno2281]

Yes, but that is past tense. John got his vision AFTER this date.

And, we know that the Jewish people were severely judged with the Chaldean and Babylonian Captivity & destruction of Temple #1. Yes, God still loved his special 12 Tribes … and brought them back to build Temple #2.

The fact they got severely judged in 70AD with loss of Temple 2 … doesn’t PRECLUDE a 3rd Temple. The OT prophets all speak to the certitude that God will never utterly reject his own kinship. Christ always spoke and ministered first to his own, and then to the gentiles. He even taught in scripture that its by his grace that the gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree. The Church needs to see itself in Christian-Zionist ways. The Olive Tree concept is still bedrock theology.

Anytime the Jews repent of their error, Christ [Moses & ALL the OT saints & prophets] hear their prayers. Whenever they as a Nation repent in sackcloth/ashes, desire illumination, and pray to receive their King — Christ, Mary, and the Apostles will come to their rescue. Especially St. Paul. He knows he would of died with errant theology … but, for Christ having shown great mercy to him.

Perhaps God is waiting for the Church to Evangelize and befriend the Jews in a sincere way. We do know that our Church history on this matter is less than ideal. For a long time we seemed to write them off … believing we ‘inherited’ their position [errant replacement theology]. I’m glad to see recent Popes address this matter. Ecumenism is not just directed towards Protestants and Eastern Church.

Please note that the second temple (built after the return from Babylon) was taken apart so that the third temple (Herod’s) could be built. There is no further temple in God’s plan. Solomon’s temple was destroyed 40 years after Manassah shed the blood of the innocent (2Kgs,24:4), Herod’s 40 years after the blood of Innocence Himself (which the Jews called down upon themselves) was shed. The temple has absolutely no place in our theology except as a symbol of the Church. The only future of the Jews lies in their acceptance of Christ, and until that happens, they remain estranged from God.

 

[JustaServant]

John got his vision AFTER this date.

Not according to Clement of Alexandria:

“For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero.”

Clement states that apostolic revelation ended with the death of Nero (A.D. 68). It would seem inescapable that Clement believed that John wrote Revelation before that date, and consequently at least two years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[JustaServant]

brb,
Since you are using the Protestant concept of ‘Scripture alone’ to reach your conclusions, let me use THAT method to break down this dispensationalist heresy you have bought into.
• Major premise #1: Three times this Babylon is called “O great city” (Rev 18:9, 16, 19)
• Minor premise #1: “The great city” is “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev 11:8)
• Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

• Major premise #2: Babylon was guilty of “the blood of the prophets” (Rev 17:6; 18:24)
• Minor premise #2: According to Jesus and Paul, only Jerusalem killed the prophets (Matt 23:34-35; Luke 13:33-34; 1 Thess 2:15-16)
• Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

• Major premise #3: John’s people are commanded to “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues” (Rev 18:4)
• Minor premise #3: The only city Jesus ever commanded his followers to flee from is Jerusalem—when they saw two specific signs (Matt 24:15-16 Luke 21:20-21). Eusebius recorded that this departure happened and no Christians were trapped and destroyed in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70[7]
• Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

• Major premise #4: This Babylon would be destroyed (Rev. 18:2, 8, 10, 11, 17, 19-23)
• Minor premise #4: The only city Jesus said would be destroyed was Jerusalem—it would be “left to you desolate”(Matt.23:38) with “not one stone . . . left on another (Matt. 24:2)
• Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

So, you see even using the ‘Scripture alone’ method of “prophecy expert” Grant Jeffrey (his description, not mine), it is hard to get a late date for Revelation.

 

[brb3]

•

Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

.

Well it is true he allowed the Babylonians to destroy it

But, the Babylon in Iraq was also utterly destroyed … after only 70 years. And, lets not forget Sodom.

IMO, to suggest Jerusalem will play no role in God’s EndTime Temple plan is ludicrous.
But, if you can more clearly explain the scriptures to me … I will recant of error.

 

[JustaServant]

Well it is true he allowed the Babylonians to destroy it

But, the Babylon in Iraq was also utterly destroyed … after only 70 years. And, lets not forget Sodom.

IMO, to suggest Jerusalem will play no role in God’s EndTime Temple plan is ludicrous.
But, if you can more clearly explain the scriptures to me … I will recant of error.

We have…time and time again. Apparently you are not reading the posts
The first error you need to recant is the Protestant error of Scripture alone.
But what is bizarre, is that dispensationalists, like Grant Jeffrey, use thier own tradition. Even they don’t use Scripture alone. At least Reformed Christians are consistant. And they are not dispensational.
brb, I know you think you have ‘discovered’ something no one else has for 2000 years. I used to think so too. But the more I read, the more contridictions I saw with dispensationalists, even within their own system. That’s why they have to keep ‘re-inventing’ themselves decade after decade. Read Lindsay’s ‘Late, Great Planet Earth’ written in the 60s, It was outdated just a few years after he published it!!! What about the Bible Code books? Or the Y2K books? Now the ‘beast’ is ‘terrorism’. What will it be ten years from now?
You’re being hookwinked. And I guarentee you, you will be left with a choice: The Catholic Church or the ‘church’ of dispensationalism. The two cannot co-exist together.

 

[patrick457]

Well it is true he allowed the Babylonians to destroy it

But, the Babylon in Iraq was also utterly destroyed … after only 70 years. And, lets not forget Sodom.

Uh, I think you got that a bit backwards. Babylon was struck down in 141 BC.

IMO, to suggest Jerusalem will play no role in God’s EndTime Temple plan is ludicrous.

I believe the earthly Jerusalem has a part to play, for good or ill, at the end of days. But having said that, sorry but I do have some problems with your scenario - if I maydare ask, can we get a brief summary of that once again?

 

[brb3]

I believe the earthly Jerusalem has a part to play, for good or ill, at the end of days. But having said that, sorry but I do have some problems with your scenario - if I maydare ask, can we get a brief summary of that once again?

I’m still letting you X-perts paint the Catholic EndTime scenario for me. So far, I don’t have much to work with. So, I’m left to try to solve the mystery with primarily Protestant help.
Ryanoneil has come up with some key Catholic meanings … that are beyond dispute.

What is becoming clear is that John’s Revelation is strongly grounded on OT revelations that date to Moses. How much of the prophesy of OT prophets is allegory and not literal … is key. I don’t think the Jews believed it allegory, when written. Nevertheless, it could well prove literal for the Jews, and allegory for the Church. A double meaning … to accomodate BOTH Judah & Israel.

I’d love to find the earliest ECF’s addressing Ezekiel Chp. 34-48. … those before time of Origen & Augustine.