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Faithdancer
Guest
You go Coptic! I like you…and not in a “gay” way, either!
- Status
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CopticChristian
Guest
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Kolbe300
Guest
Coptic,
You posted as apparent evidence (I’m assuming) a few studies about changes in sexuality. Here’s the conclusion from your evidence:
In 1969, some doctor says a patient reported a spontaneous shift to heterosexual behavior. Which, as we know, a change in behavior means pretty much nothing.
In 1976, some doctor learned from one of his patients that he no longer had homosexual inclinations and was now happily married.
In 1985, 3.4 people claimed they had once been homosexual. (We have no idea if that means sexual orientation or behavior or both.)
In 1994, “some” people in a national survey apparently changed their sexual orientation without psychotherapy. Obviously we don’t know how many “some” is.
We can confirm then, based on this evidence at least, that 5.4 people, and “some” more, experienced some kind of change in sexual behavior or orientation (since 1969). While that may seem like overwhelming evidence to you, it doesn’t to me. I was actually surprised you would even post it. What I would conclude, based on that evidence alone, is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of human beings will not find themselves shifting from one sexual orientation to another.
The evidence, Coptic, is not even remotely on your side or Dr. Nicolosi’s. Which is why I believe our best option is to show homosexual persons what hope they do have in living the faith taught by the Catholic Church. There is hope there, and a lot of it. And a person need not change their sexual orientation to experience it or pursue it. If we can show them that hope, we can change lives.
I have little doubt that you will continue to be a cheerleader for Nicolosi, reparative therapy, and sexuality change (even spontaneous change!) which is certainly your right and prerogative. It’s not going to help any, but it’s your right to pursue the tactic.
Tonight, I was a representative of my parish community. The priest, who knows very well that I am a homosexual person, asked if I would allow him to wash my feet. Instead of telling me to go find a way to be straight, he has loved me as I am from the very beginning. He has shown me hope, and the love of Christ. His strategy works. Yours, I’m afraid, does not work and never will.
All that being said, you are a brother in Christ. I wish you the best this Easter season.
You posted as apparent evidence (I’m assuming) a few studies about changes in sexuality. Here’s the conclusion from your evidence:
In 1969, some doctor says a patient reported a spontaneous shift to heterosexual behavior. Which, as we know, a change in behavior means pretty much nothing.
In 1976, some doctor learned from one of his patients that he no longer had homosexual inclinations and was now happily married.
In 1985, 3.4 people claimed they had once been homosexual. (We have no idea if that means sexual orientation or behavior or both.)
In 1994, “some” people in a national survey apparently changed their sexual orientation without psychotherapy. Obviously we don’t know how many “some” is.
We can confirm then, based on this evidence at least, that 5.4 people, and “some” more, experienced some kind of change in sexual behavior or orientation (since 1969). While that may seem like overwhelming evidence to you, it doesn’t to me. I was actually surprised you would even post it. What I would conclude, based on that evidence alone, is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of human beings will not find themselves shifting from one sexual orientation to another.
The evidence, Coptic, is not even remotely on your side or Dr. Nicolosi’s. Which is why I believe our best option is to show homosexual persons what hope they do have in living the faith taught by the Catholic Church. There is hope there, and a lot of it. And a person need not change their sexual orientation to experience it or pursue it. If we can show them that hope, we can change lives.
I have little doubt that you will continue to be a cheerleader for Nicolosi, reparative therapy, and sexuality change (even spontaneous change!) which is certainly your right and prerogative. It’s not going to help any, but it’s your right to pursue the tactic.
Tonight, I was a representative of my parish community. The priest, who knows very well that I am a homosexual person, asked if I would allow him to wash my feet. Instead of telling me to go find a way to be straight, he has loved me as I am from the very beginning. He has shown me hope, and the love of Christ. His strategy works. Yours, I’m afraid, does not work and never will.
All that being said, you are a brother in Christ. I wish you the best this Easter season.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Kolbe,
Stay tuned. After the California SB-1172 is defeated you will find that more studies and papers concerning Homosexuality will be produced. If you do not get the Journal of Human Sexuality I suggest you do subscribe to it. NARTH will continue their work.
I am not much for washing feet. I would give you a hug and say thank you for your thoughts and insights. You believe what you want to believe and seek what you want to seek.
A
Arandur
Guest
People seem to look at homosexual attraction in a vacuum, as if other cases of human abnormalities don’t exist and those people’s burdens are meaningless.
To see this, we first have to get past the circular reasoning that assumes of homosexual attraction what people want to conclude: that it is “normal” in the both the sense that it is a standard biological condition for which humans are designed and in the sense that it should not have any implications for living or behavior other than to do what the inclination tends people towards. These assumptions lead people to even say, “God created me that way, so I can freely do what I’m inclined to do.”
Well, first of all, we can tell that the human body is not designed for it: that’s so obvious that any denial is like claiming the earth is flat, pigs fly, and the sun is just a light bulb. It’s a simple denial of clearly observable scientific fact.
But more importantly, the analog to other forgotten human conditions outside the vacuum of self-centeredness in the homosexual world is this: plenty of other people are born with conditions that are tremendous burdens. Plenty of people are born handicapped, even in extreme ways: missing limbs, missing senses (blind, deaf), missing sexual faculties, having severe mental disabilities or conditions, and with susceptabilities to many physical, emotional, and psychological disorders.
These disabilities are truly disabilities; they are not normal. Did God make them that way? Not in the sense that He intended to inflict such hardships upon people. We know that from Jesus’ many healings in the Bible, and his admonitions that these people are not afflicted for their sins or the sins of their parents. God is not guilty of our broken world–WE are.
So people are born with (or acquire over their lifetimes through no fault of their own) abnormalities all the time. These have often far-reaching implications for how they can live and how they should live.
Should people always give into their urges? What about those who have behavioral tendencies towards abberrant, harmful behaviors, such as sadism, masochism, people with disordered tendencies towards violence, pedophilia, even lying and stealing?
Should they just give in to those tendencies, even when doing so makes them feel good?
Surely guilt may be lessened by true handicaps, but that does not mean people should go ahead and do those behaviors that are harmful to themselves or others.
Some might claim that you need to express your sexuality rather than repress it otherwise you will be unfulfilled. That’s the biggest lie of the last century. Leaving aside the millions of people alive today, and the many millions more throughout history, who have led far more fulfilling lives in celibacy, what about all those forgotten people I keep mentioning who have disabilities that would prevent them from “fulfilling” their sexuality–through sexual intercourse?
What about a paraplegic? Is he or she denied fulfillment by that condition? Is anyone denying them a “right” by the fact that they are unable to consummate? What about all the single people who may never know a sexual relationship because they can’t find a partner, for whatever reason? Maybe a physical, mental, or behavioral condition is a huge barrier to such relationships–either to consummating or just to people wanting to have sex with them?
Do those people not have sexual desires?
The idea that sexual activity is necessary for fulfillment, that people should just follow their sexual desires, is extremely cruel to all of these “forgotten” people, in addition to just being a false statement.
Same-sex attraction is like so many other conditions that afflict humanity. So many conditions are not the fault of the person afflicted, and may even be something they were born with. That does not change morality for those people. It is a cross for the to bear. It may be heavier than most peoples’, but most people will experience a heavy cross, and most people will experience a serious sin that they find an extreme attraction to, even an addiction to, and have great difficulty breaking. We are all called to the same virtues, to the same chastity. People with same-sex attraction are no more burdened than single heterosexually-attracted people in the call to live chastely despite our attractions.
This is why we all need love and mercy, admonition but also encouragement and help. And those who are afflicted with abnormal handicaps and inclinations deserve more of our help, love, and attention, not less.
As with any hardship in the human condition, it can be overcome with love, but not with capitulation.
To see this, we first have to get past the circular reasoning that assumes of homosexual attraction what people want to conclude: that it is “normal” in the both the sense that it is a standard biological condition for which humans are designed and in the sense that it should not have any implications for living or behavior other than to do what the inclination tends people towards. These assumptions lead people to even say, “God created me that way, so I can freely do what I’m inclined to do.”
Well, first of all, we can tell that the human body is not designed for it: that’s so obvious that any denial is like claiming the earth is flat, pigs fly, and the sun is just a light bulb. It’s a simple denial of clearly observable scientific fact.
But more importantly, the analog to other forgotten human conditions outside the vacuum of self-centeredness in the homosexual world is this: plenty of other people are born with conditions that are tremendous burdens. Plenty of people are born handicapped, even in extreme ways: missing limbs, missing senses (blind, deaf), missing sexual faculties, having severe mental disabilities or conditions, and with susceptabilities to many physical, emotional, and psychological disorders.
These disabilities are truly disabilities; they are not normal. Did God make them that way? Not in the sense that He intended to inflict such hardships upon people. We know that from Jesus’ many healings in the Bible, and his admonitions that these people are not afflicted for their sins or the sins of their parents. God is not guilty of our broken world–WE are.
So people are born with (or acquire over their lifetimes through no fault of their own) abnormalities all the time. These have often far-reaching implications for how they can live and how they should live.
Should people always give into their urges? What about those who have behavioral tendencies towards abberrant, harmful behaviors, such as sadism, masochism, people with disordered tendencies towards violence, pedophilia, even lying and stealing?
Should they just give in to those tendencies, even when doing so makes them feel good?
Surely guilt may be lessened by true handicaps, but that does not mean people should go ahead and do those behaviors that are harmful to themselves or others.
Some might claim that you need to express your sexuality rather than repress it otherwise you will be unfulfilled. That’s the biggest lie of the last century. Leaving aside the millions of people alive today, and the many millions more throughout history, who have led far more fulfilling lives in celibacy, what about all those forgotten people I keep mentioning who have disabilities that would prevent them from “fulfilling” their sexuality–through sexual intercourse?
What about a paraplegic? Is he or she denied fulfillment by that condition? Is anyone denying them a “right” by the fact that they are unable to consummate? What about all the single people who may never know a sexual relationship because they can’t find a partner, for whatever reason? Maybe a physical, mental, or behavioral condition is a huge barrier to such relationships–either to consummating or just to people wanting to have sex with them?
Do those people not have sexual desires?
The idea that sexual activity is necessary for fulfillment, that people should just follow their sexual desires, is extremely cruel to all of these “forgotten” people, in addition to just being a false statement.
Same-sex attraction is like so many other conditions that afflict humanity. So many conditions are not the fault of the person afflicted, and may even be something they were born with. That does not change morality for those people. It is a cross for the to bear. It may be heavier than most peoples’, but most people will experience a heavy cross, and most people will experience a serious sin that they find an extreme attraction to, even an addiction to, and have great difficulty breaking. We are all called to the same virtues, to the same chastity. People with same-sex attraction are no more burdened than single heterosexually-attracted people in the call to live chastely despite our attractions.
This is why we all need love and mercy, admonition but also encouragement and help. And those who are afflicted with abnormal handicaps and inclinations deserve more of our help, love, and attention, not less.
As with any hardship in the human condition, it can be overcome with love, but not with capitulation.
K
Kolbe300
Guest
Stay tuned? Coptic, it seems to me as if your theory and support of reparative therapy is based upon evidence you think is going to arrive one day. It’s as if you’ve dropped all your eggs in a basket that isn’t even there. This has been a very eye opening thread.
Ditto, my friend.
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CopticChristian
Guest
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CopticChristian
Guest
Arandur,
You bring up good food for thought. There are people that are actually asexual.
I
InSearchofGrace
Guest
Hello, Kolbe,
Indeed, you are loved, brother in Christ, and may you be blessed this Easter!
If I may react to your postings, without taking away from your personal experience and witness as fertile ground to God’s graces.
What I find curious is the incredulity on your part and others of testimonies that are not exactly unheard of.
The etiology of the homosexual condition and its psychogenesis is still not known. We have “scientific” studies invariably rejected by the opposing side claiming use of imperfect method or that the study is not completely bias-free. However, the data seems to abound that there is more than a handful of variations in the stream of human sexual desire and compulsion between heterosexual and non-heterosexual on opposite ends. LGBTQ … to asexual. Deep-seated to transitory to absence. Does one with whatever is the articulated conflict acceptance of the condition, living out the inclination without scrutiny of objective personal physical and non-physical harm, management, or towards change? If one seeks change, is there only one result that should be targeted or be made acceptable? So how is it that one mechanism to manage unwanted homosexual urge need to be disparaged, be disallowed?
Instead of challenging that true conversions or sexual re-orientation can take place, why not be open to the option or at least accept what some people take and therapists, however non-mainstream in this current environment, offer?
Our Stories of Change
There may not be many published testimonies, but do you consider that ex-gays (a term to which gay practitioners have a seeming visceral aversion) are made to be the enemies of their once gay lovers and friends, that coming out as ex-gay is deemed to be a betrayal?
“Gender Affirmative” Therapy Can Help!
Note that Dr. Nicolosi is one of 22 counsellors listed.
Finding A Counselor or Life Coach
Dr. Nicolosi and the other therapists in the list do not guarantee success. A big factor is the client’s motivation to change. Why disbelieve those who say they have been helped? Individuals with unwanted homosexual attraction should not be discouraged to seek therapy, to direct their own treatment. If the result is less than complete resolution of homosexual attraction, it is not a reason to discount said therapy altogether.
Sexual re-orientation seeking patients or clients have a right to the direction of their treatment.
,
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Grace,
I truly believe that when California SB-1172 is defeated in April that Nicolosi will be vindicated and there should be a flourishing of alternative modalities that would include Therapy, Life Coach, Hypnotherapy and other modalities…there are a few online, not that I recommend them, Hypnotherapists offering modalities to accept and to change orientation…
K
Kolbe300
Guest
To you as well, ISOG!
You certainly may, and your questions are good ones.
Here’s the thing. I don’t challenge that true conversions or sexual re-orientation can take place. Anything is possible with God. All I know are the testimonies I’ve seen and read myself. Most of them (nearly all), speak of changes in behavior rather than orientation. In fact, many ex-gays admit to still having SSA, they just don’t act on it. Most testimonies I’ve read speak of leaving the “lifestyle” and say little about a change in sexual orientation. There’s nothing wrong with that or dishonest about it.
I’ve mentioned this before, but I remember watching a show on ex-gay ministries. Two leaders were interviewed. Both were ex-gay and both were now married. They were asked if they still had same sex attraction. One guy admitted that he did, daily. The other guy ripped off his microphone and stormed out of the interview. I thought that was telling.
I do not doubt that change is possible. I do not, however, believe that it is the norm. I firmly believe that a change in actual sexual orientation for a person who has always been SSA is incredibly rare. And the testimonies I’ve seen back that up.
That is why I get fired up when people make it seem as if actual change in sexual orientation (NOT behavior) is happening all over the place all the time. And these people never seem able to provide the evidence of these drastic changes.
This would be my hope: If someone truly desires to seek therapy for change, they should absolutely be allowed to. You never know. But I would love to see our approach as one which places the love for the person, as they are, above our demand for them to first change. I see so much focus on this forum for advocating change, and very little on what to do when that change doesn’t occur. Which, is likely to be the case.
I don’t see an ex-gay testimony as a betrayal, as long as they’re honest. (Like the guy that admitted he was still SSA.) If your behavior changed, but not your sexual orientation, make that clear. Be honest about it. If someone says they have no SSA any longer, who am I to disagree? I believe them. I just rarely see that.
Yes. And often times the reason given for a lack of success is a lack of motivation. Which really amounts to, “You didn’t want it bad enough.” I find that disturbing, especially considering the evidence.
I agree with you. But lets make sure they know that our love and support isn’t dependent upon their changing.
K
Kolbe300
Guest
I forgot to mention something with regards to this. I think it’s important that we also not disbelieve those who have testimonies about how they have been truly hurt by some reparative therapy techniques. We certainly can’t pick and choose who we’ll decide to believe. Anyways…
Happy Easter!
E
edwest2
Guest
Interesting comments but you apparently do not know some things. All that CopticChristian and many Catholics are looking for is an honest assessment of homosexuality.
The following was written by a gay man.
amazon.com/Sexual-Ecology-Birth-AIDS-Destiny/dp/0525941649/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0
The information presented in that book is bolstered by the CDC:
cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/
And here:
aidsmap.com/HIV-incidence-increasing-among-gay-men-in-Amsterdam/page/1599246/
Then we have material that can be used in schools:
telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8275937/Gay-lessons-in-maths-geography-and-science.html
Would you dismiss the claims of the following:
pfox.org/about_us.html
Or that the gay community is not doing a good job of informing other LGBT’s about HIV/AIDS? I mean there are a lot of LGBT web sites and groups/organizations that are national and international, and publications, but what are they doing? Seriously.
The moment anybody, anywhere, says a word or two, including here, that is perceived as anti-LGBT, posters and writers and other web sites are all over it.
Face it, there are gay and straight sex addicts, and it needs to stop. Both groups are in trouble if they don’t, both physically and spiritually. We’re all sinners, and God knows where I am on that list. For some, it’s illegal drugs or alcohol, for others, it’s unprotected gay or straight sex.
I never had a problem with the gay and bisexual people I worked with in the past, but the moment I saw “same-sex marriage” on the ballot in my State, my first thoughts were: WHY is this EVEN ON THE BALLOT? Followed by: WHY DOES ANYONE NEED MY PERMISSION to live how they want?
Can you answer that?
And if you can answer one more question: aside from the benefits package, why would two gay men want or need to get married? Of those who are, how many are celibate? My visits to gay web site shows that celibacy is a non-topic as far as I can see, and the gay life must or at least, should include sex.
Let’s just be honest with each other. Just like the formerly bisexual girl I dated who told me a little way’s into our relationship that she had sex with both men and women. I told her not to worry about it now that it was behind her. (That didn’t stop one lesbian co-worker of ours from literally chasing her around and hitting on her.)
So yes, Jesus is the answer for all of us. But for many, certain behaviors are hard to break. The Church gets that.
I hope you found my comments helpful. And I hope that ‘just being a gay human being’ does not hinder anyone reading this from seeking God, or from going to Mass.
Have a happy Easter,
Ed
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
I see why you would be doubtful of claims of sexual re-orientation.
Results are hard to measure and they vary, not a surprise. That does not nullify success or necessarily mean that the guy who stormed off was being deceptive or fudging his own result.
Perhaps the claim of success in sexual re-orientation is doubted by you because of the ease of separating orientation and behavior. I suppose there is a parallel to two business models of management, one, management by objectives, the other, management by results. Except that we are talking about human inner workings here. I would concede that results are more important, that is, behavior change over change in sexual orientation. However, would you not give more allowance if not praise for efforts to changing sexual re-orientation? Realizing it may not work or succeed to that extent with deep seated homosexual conditions, such method or modality attempts to go to the root instead of what is above ground, for cases where the homosexual hold is less strong. I hope my writing is making sense.
I’ll share a personal story. My husband is addicted to nicotine, has been for many years. Finally, thankfully, he wants to quit. I helped him obtain a starting three month dose on a smoking cessation medication, and he is just on the third week. I hope and pray he would stick with it. Do I think success of kicking the habit is dependent only on the effectiveness of the prescription? Or do I think motivation has a big part towards success?
Agreed on that! Whether a brother changes behavior or orientation should not be a condition to love and support by one human being to another. A caveat however, that does not translate to support for the clamor for rights to gay ‘marriage’ and adoption of children, made to be a legal reality or not.
K
Kolbe300
Guest
I’d say all of us don’t know some things.
I’m not interpreting it that way at all. But we all have our own opinion.
No, I wouldn’t dismiss their claims. I would take the time to look at them and consider them. I spent about the last hour reading many of their ex-gay testimonies. They are exactly like others I have read. I don’t dismiss them at all.
I’m not involved with any of these organizations, so I can’t offer an answer.
That tends to be a two-way street. At least on the forum. If anyone makes a comment perceived as pro gay people they’re usually assumed to be pro-gay “agenda.”
I agree with you. Do you think that a homosexual orientation is an addiction?
First of all, I’m not pushing for gay marriage. That being said, I think most gay couples couldn’t care less whether or not they have your permission to do anything at all. They want to be able to get married. If you are married or have ever wanted to be, you can probably empathize with that desire.
For the same reasons two straight people want to get married. As hard as that may be to believe, it really is that simple.
I’m not sure what you’re asking. How many married gay men are celibate? I would guess not many.
I think you’d probably be hard pressed to find celibacy, especially life-long celibacy, as a hot topic on a heterosexual website as well. Aside from priests, I think every heterosexual I have ever known has believed that sex is a part of life.
I’m being honest. I promise.
Amen!
You too, Ed!
K
Kolbe300
Guest
That’s true. I just couldn’t figure out a reason why he’d storm off. Why that question would anger him as an ex-gay. It seems like a question an ex-gay would want to answer (especially a leader). But you’re right, there’s no telling.
I agree. If sexual activity is the sin, then a turn away from that is a good thing. But I wouldn’t necessarily even call that a re-orientation. Edwest gave a link to a pfox website. You can take a look at some of those testimonies to see what I’m talking about. They are mostly testimonies of those involved in gay sexual activity who find hope and purpose in God. That is a great thing. I saw a few mentioning the daily struggle and the occasional slips. One man said he is attracted to women now. And I believe him. But overall, they seem like a change in behavior, which leaves me wondering about the orientation. If behavior is the litmus test, then I am ex-gay (ex-SSA, if you prefer). But I know that isn’t true.
Motivation certainly plays a role in success. And you can find thousands if not millions of examples of people who have successfully quit smoking (thank God!). I think what would help is if ex-gay and reparative therapies were completely honest about their purpose and how they measure success. In my opinion, improvement is needed there.
Peace!
D
Dakota_Roberts
Guest
Why would he be doubtful of something where almost every example turns out to be a misinterpretation of the nature of it? If someone is sexual attracted to both sex and they go from exclusive sex with the same sex to exclusive sex with the opposite sex you did not make a gay person straight, you helped a bisexual change behavior.
He seemed to take the question like a very insecure person.
They are indeed separate. I have a feeling almost anyone through prayer and frequent reception of the sacraments can change pretty much all behaviour. What is “the homosexual hold”? If behaviour is the litmus test I am completely asexual.
I think his point is that reparative therapy only blames the patient when it doesn’t work because it couldn’t possibly be the methods.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
DR,
In April the Circuit Court will hear oral arguments…most likely the law will be ruled unconstitutional however the Gay agenda will appeal…probably lose but that leaves the state of any progress for any kind of Therapy, Coaching, Hypnotherapy up in the air…these shenaningans only impede progress for those that want progress…
K
Kolbe300
Guest
Is California the only place reparative therapy is taking place? I honestly don’t know. It seems like everything is hinging on California here. I can’t imagine it’s the only place we can find data, is it?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Kolbe,
A case was filed in Washington, New Jersey has a case against Jonah and this is just in…a court in Washington DC says that the Office of Human Rights must extend the same rights to Ex-gays as they do to Gays suggesting that the Courts recognize that homosexuality is not immutable.
**I. GOVERNMENT AUTHORITIES AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS RECOGNIZE EX-GAYS AS A GROUP, WHICH REFUTES THE VIEW THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS FIXED AND IMMUTABLE. **
wthrockmorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dcruling.pdf
I anticipate that California will be an ongoing case with appeals with the first attempt failing…it does show what extremes the LGBT will go to…harnessing the Societies to change thinking and then trying to promulgate laws that promote that thinking…
- Status