The Reformation

[mercygate]

How about sharing the Catholic answer in regards to Jesus being om(name removed by moderator)resent. How can Jesus be at the right hand of God and at multiple masses for the Eucharist at the same time? Doesn’t Rome acknowledge that Jesus is forever the God man being fully God and fully man? Does Jesus’ humanity and body prevent Him from being om(name removed by moderator)resent?

No. The Holy Trinity is undivided. The Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is a mystery that pertains particularly to the Resurrection. The Resurrection Body, though “real” is definitely and again* definitely* not exactly the same kind of body that we have. He appeared and apparently vanished, He seems to have entered locked rooms without opening the door . . . He “vanished from their sight” at the Ascension . . . The Body of the Risen Lord is “flesh and bone” but definitely not not mere flesh and bone.

The absence of the mystical sense in much reformation Christianity is ncomprehensible: a profound impoverishment and diminution of the ancient faith, reducing it to a set of doctrinal propositions.

 

[GKC]

How about sharing the Catholic answer in regards to Jesus being om(name removed by moderator)resent. How can Jesus be at the right hand of God and at multiple masses for the Eucharist at the same time? Doesn’t Rome acknowledge that Jesus is forever the God man being fully God and fully man? Does Jesus’ humanity and body prevent Him from being om(name removed by moderator)resent?

Speaking not as a RC but as another sort of Catholic, do remember that the doctrine of the Real Presence is not that Christ flies down from God’s right hand into the chalice and ciborium on the altar at every Mass, but that the bread and wine are changed into his Body and Blood, soul and divinity. He doesn’t “go” anywhere, including from the right hand of God; the elements in the Eucharist change.

GKC

*Anglicanus Catholicus *

 

[JRKH]

Please understand Scripture does not speak of the church as the Roman Catholic Church. What do you consider Protestant or Orthodox institutions? Do you consider them churches too? Paul and John (Revelation) speaks of multiple physical churches and a universal invisible church.

When the NT was written there was One Christian Church, All other “churches” were either pagan or heretic. Christ established One Church on Earth and that Church is Catholic (Universal), Authoritative, and Visible.

The passages below seem to me to be a clear demonstration of Christ’s authority and how He passed it on to the Church.
May God keep us as Christian Brothers.

Christ’s instruction of what to do about a brother who “sins” against us.

Matthew 16: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, **tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. **18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Some of our Protestant brothers will want to tell us that the “Church” not an “institution” but the entire body of believers. If this is so then “Taking it to the Church” would be completed in step two where “Two or three witnesses” are called upon and no third step would be required. But Christ did establish a third step, telling His disciples to submit such obstinate disputes to “The Church’ for resolution and that they must accept The Church’s judgment as final.
So how does Christ define His Church?

Matthew 16 18:19
18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Even a casual reading of this passage shows that Simon (Peter) is named Rock and upon this Rock Jesus institutes His Church with Authority to Bind and loose. Bind and Loose What? Bind and Loose “Whatever”. Pretty Broad latitude.

But then this begs the question, of Jesus Authority to grant this power.

Matthew 28: 18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Since this passage is given after Jesus Resurrection, it’s safe to say that Jesus Had “The Father’s” ear. In other words His Resurrection was certainly sufficient to Prove His divinity. So Now He has been given Authority in Heaven and Earth. He in turn gave authority to His Church, soon to be founded upon the Rock of Peter (Kepha). This Authority is to Bind, Loose, hold and teach the Truth of the Gospel.

Finally as to the issue of obeying the Church, I will again point to the Masters own words.When Jesus was teaching in Matthew about the Jewish Law and the interpretations thereof, He sternly reprimanded the Jewish leadership and He did so publicly, but what did He tell the Faithful Jewish “laymen”? He told them,

“all that they tell you, do and observe” because “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat”. (Matthew 23:2-3)

Jesus is saying that the teachings of the Jewish leaders remains binding and valid even though the leaders themselves are sinful men. Jesus thus establishes that, under the Old Covenent, those who “Sit on the seat of Moses” have the power to bind and loose. Under the New covenent, that Power resides in those who sit on the “Chair of Peter”, who was selected by Christ to Lead His Church.
Even if the Church were to teach something in error, it is still up to us to obey her. God will deal harshly with the offenders, and mercifully with His faithful servents. I shudder to think what He will do to those who reject and villify the Authority He established and has maintained for so long.

This Church is not a mystical – ethereal collection of believers, though certainly that is what makes up the Church, it is an institution of God given to us for Guidance.

The great example in the Bible of the idea of Authority and taking it to the Church is the Council of Jeruselum in Acts. If the Church was a “body of believers” and not an “institution” then why did Paul feel the need to bring the issue to the Apostles (Church Leadership). It was because Jesus told them to “Tell it to the Church”.
Once at the Council, things did not run all that smoothly, there was much debate until Peter Spoke and quieted it. Even once the decsion had been made in Council it is logical to assume that there were varying degrees of “acceptance” among the individuals who debated so forcefully earlier. This would only be human nature. However All of them accepted the decision of the Council and submitted their own misgivings to the authority of the Church under the guiadance of teh Holy Spirit.

To me, these GOSPEL passages are powerful and conclusive evidence of the Authority of The Catholic Church since it is the Catholic Church that is the oldest and is traceable to the Apostles.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I know God is om(name removed by moderator)resent. I know we cannot seperate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…since the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. But do you think God the Son in the godhead is om(name removed by moderator)resent? I think you are thinking more about the Spirit in the godhead as being om(name removed by moderator)resent, maybe? I would like to hear the Catholic undestanding of the Son being omnipresent? Isn’t God the Son limited by His forver dual nature of being fully God and fully man? I do embrace the understanding of the hypo-static union of Christ. The Roman Catholic Church did not create the Trinity or the Holy Bible .

Do you believe Jesus Himself?

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." (Mt 18:20)

Does this mean just one group at a time?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There were problems in the Church during the time of Martin Luther. Those problems were a result of “men” or the sins of men. Many, including Catholics, worked for a reformation of the Church. Martin Luther’s mistake was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To abandon Christ’s Church seemed to show a lack of faith in Christ’s promises to be with His Church until the consummation of the world.

Once Martin Luther broke away from the Church what happened? Everyone heard of his defense of sola scriptura. Even Martin Luther’s own followers left him and started their own Church based on their own private intrepretation. The end result is thousands of denominations of Protestantism today.

In John chapter 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. Do we abandon Christ because of those who could not bare His words?

Among the thousands of Protestant denominations, there are many different interpretations of the Bible. Do we throw out the Bible and rewrite it?

Christ taught and prayed for one Church. St. Paul specifically wrote against schisms and taught for people to be of the same mind and judgement. Is thousands of denominations the answer to scriptures?

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about. They did not speak about this “invisible” Church Protestants speak about today. The scriptures themselves were written to specific Churches and not this “invisible” Church.

You cannot say Christ started an invisible Church and yet speak in defense of the reformation, that is a contradiction in itself.

 

[ralphinal]

We should point out the ultimate, final defense of the solas

If your Papist makes much useless fuss about the word sola, allein, tell him at once: ‘Dr. Martin Luther would have it so,’

Yep. That is sho’ 'nuff scriptural there.

 

[Reformed]

There were problems in the Church during the time of Martin Luther. Those problems were a result of “men” or the sins of men. Many, including Catholics, worked for a reformation of the Church. Martin Luther’s mistake was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To abandon Christ’s Church seemed to show a lack of faith in Christ’s promises to be with His Church until the consummation of the world.

Once Martin Luther broke away from the Church what happened? Everyone heard of his defense of sola scriptura. Even Martin Luther’s own followers left him and started their own Church based on their own private intrepretation. The end result is thousands of denominations of Protestantism today.

In John chapter 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. Do we abandon Christ because of those who could not bare His words?

Among the thousands of Protestant denominations, there are many different interpretations of the Bible. Do we throw out the Bible and rewrite it?

Christ taught and prayed for one Church. St. Paul specifically wrote against schisms and taught for people to be of the same mind and judgement. Is thousands of denominations the answer to scriptures?

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about. They did not speak about this “invisible” Church Protestants speak about today. The scriptures themselves were written to specific Churches and not this “invisible” Church.

You cannot say Christ started an invisible Church and yet speak in defense of the reformation, that is a contradiction in itself.

How about the Orthodox Church who rejects the Roman authority? (1 + 1 = 2)

 

[Mannyfit75]

How about the Orthodox Church who rejects the Roman authority? (1 + 1 = 2)

How about the continued dialogue between Catholic and Orthodox theologian that will bring about the unification of the two Churches? There is Joint Catholic-Orthodox Commision statement about the issue of papacy. This is one of the many steps for unifications. It’s called the Ravenna Orthodox-Catholic Statement.

 

[Reformed]

How about the continued dialogue between Catholic and Orthodox theologian that will bring about the unification of the two Churches? There is Joint Catholic-Orthodox Commision statement about the issue of papacy. This is one of the many steps for unifications. It’s called the Ravenna Orthodox-Catholic Statement.

Well, Prodigal seemed to have written that the church was one before the Reformation. The east and west split prior to the Reformation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How about the Orthodox Church who rejects the Roman authority? (1 + 1 = 2)

Use the math, does two wrongs make it right?

It’s as Manny says, there are unification talks ongoing. If the two came back together as one, would you rethink your reformed position?

I’ve listed specific scriptures that you do not address. You’re the professed sola scripturist. Do you have nothing to say about the scriptures I provided?

Also, you’ve repeatedly professed an “invisible” Church and you’ve spoke of the correction actions of the reformation. Can you not see the contradiction of the two issues? They cannot be connected as I see it. You cannot reform a visible Church and go around preaching it was an invisible Church that Christ created and St. Paul wrote letters to invisible Churches.

 

[Reformed]

Use the math, does two wrongs make it right?

It’s as Manny says, there are unification talks ongoing. If the two came back together as one, would you rethink your reformed position?

I’ve listed specific scriptures that you do not address. You’re the professed sola scripturist. Do you have nothing to say about the scriptures I provided?

Also, you’ve repeatedly professed an “invisible” Church and you’ve spoke of the correction actions of the reformation. Can you not see the contradiction of the two issues? They cannot be connected as I see it. You cannot reform a visible Church and go around preaching it was an invisible Church that Christ created and St. Paul wrote letters to invisible Churches.

Hey Prodigal,

Didn’t you just post and stated the church was one prior to the Protestant Reformation? Did you delete that post?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, Prodigal seemed to have written that the church was one before the Reformation. The east and west split prior to the Reformation.

Both Churches claim to be Catholic, both Churches share many of the same dogmas.

The reformation dropped many, including beliefs of the original reformer, Martin Luther himself.

Again, how can you profess an invisible Church and endorse a reformation of the ONE Church?

 

[Reformed]

Both Churches claim to be Catholic, both Churches share many of the same dogmas.

The reformation dropped many, including beliefs of the original reformer, Martin Luther himself.

Again, how can you profess an invisible Church and endorse a reformation of the ONE Church?

Please answer my question. Didn’t you just post that the church was one prior to the Reformation?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hey Prodigal,

Didn’t you just post and stated the church was one prior to the Protestant Reformation? Did you delete that post?

Yes, post #45. I’ve also posted two since. You haven’t addressed many points of all three.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, Prodigal seemed to have written that the church was one before the Reformation. The east and west split prior to the Reformation.

In 1054 the two went into Schism and they are still in Schism but that is being work out with. I have seen great work by both leaders in the both Apostolic Churches for unity.

 

[Reformed]

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about.

Okay, I just found it. I have been on the road for 5 hours and just arrived at my hotel. I was listening to a Catholic radio station and found it to be refreshing and very Protestant. They even quoted Mother Teresa saying that Mary was a sinner in need of redemption like the rest of us. They also used the Scriptures like a Protestant station. I knew there was a remnant inside the Catholic Church.

For those in Oregon, I found the Catholic station driving along the costal mountain range on my way to Astoria. The Catholic station covered from Portland to Salem. What’s up with that station?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In 1054 the two went into Schism and they are still in Schism but that is being work out with. I have seen great work by both leaders in the both Apostolic Churches for unity.

Thank you Manny, I was sitting here thinking the very same thing. In 1054 there was a schism and not a reformation.

Now maybe Reformed will answer how one can say Christ created an invisible Church and St. Paul wrote invisible Churches? How could it have been an invisible Church that Martin Luther reformed? They are two entirely different things.

 

[mercygate]

How about the Orthodox Church who rejects the Roman authority? (1 + 1 = 2)

Let’s go back to what the Orthodox DO accept. Apostolic succession, the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Our Lady, that she is now in Heaven, body and soul, that she is Mother of God. Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist; sacerdotal priesthood, baptismal regneration, infant baptism, confession to a priest, threefold Holy Orders of bishop, deacon, priest. The Orthodox acknowledge that the Bishop of Rome is a bishop.

So, when y’all agree with what the Orthodox DO agree with in the Catholic teaching, THEN we can talk about why they don’t accept the teaching concerning the papacy.

 

[mercygate]

Well, Prodigal seemed to have written that the church was one before the Reformation. The east and west split prior to the Reformation.

Even the supposed crisis point of the Filioque is little more than excuse for a break that had more to do with politics than teaching. The split had nothing to do with “reforming” doctrine.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You bet Mary needed a redeemer just like the rest of us.

Thing is, she was ‘redeemed’ by Christ. . .at her conception.

Suppose a man is walking along a road. Suddenly there is an earthquake and he falls into a gap that opens. A man runs forward and throws him a rope and lifts him from the gap.

Another man is walking along the road and is getting close to that gap – the man with the rope grabs him by the arm and stops him from falling into the gap.

Both men have been rescued from falling into the gap, haven’t they?

The difference is, one man actually fell in and was hauled out. The other was saved from falling into the gap in the first place.

Humanity is like that first man–but Mary is like the second. Saved BEFORE falling into that gap.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread. But since the remark was thrown out rather parenthetically, as the poster was ‘praising us with faint damns’ so to speak, I thought it might as well be quickly ‘addressed’ rather than open up a thread, as the point is so quickly and easily explained.