The Reformation

[anon52328184]

i remember this OP from another thread who claims to be only 15 years old and wanting information about catholicism because he was doubting his protestant faith. the title of that thread was “what do you believe?” and he also started another thread called “jesus on the cross” or something similar to that.

some of his postings seem pretty sophisticated for a 15 year old.

reminds me of the michael jackson song - “wanna be startin’ something”!!

LOL!!

 

[TriuneUnity]

The Church is both infallible and sinless, but the members of the Church are fallible and sinful.

So what is “the Church” if not its members?

 

[anon52328184]

i need to make a correction on my previous post.

he didn’t start a thread called “is jesus still on the cross”, he only posted on there twice.

if he is 15 and wanting to understand the reformation, he might be confused by the answers here. might be over his head.

 

[jmcrae]

Please answer my question. Didn’t you just post that the church was one prior to the Reformation?

I assume he intended to say that prior to the schism of the East, the Church was one.

In the West, we were all Roman Catholic from 30 AD until 1517 AD, when Martin Luther went into an even deeper schism than the Eastern Churches, since not only did he start his own organization, he did it on his own authority, without any Bishop to assure the continuation of the Apostolic Succession.

The Lutheran Church has, therefore, had no valid Sacraments except for those that don’t require a priest since the time of Luther’s death. (Luther was a priest, but it seems as though it didn’t occur to him that he would need a successor - I suppose he thought the end of the world was going to come in his own times.)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Reformed,

I am reposting my information as I really want to know your thoughts on these issues.

There were problems in the Church during the time of Martin Luther. Those problems were a result of “men” or the sins of men. Many, including Catholics, worked for a reformation of the Church. Martin Luther’s mistake was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To abandon Christ’s Church seemed to show a lack of faith in Christ’s promises to be with His Church until the consummation of the world.

Once Martin Luther broke away from the Church what happened? Everyone heard of his defense of sola scriptura. Even Martin Luther’s own followers left him and started their own Church based on their own private intrepretation. The end result is thousands of denominations of Protestantism today.

In John chapter 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. Do we abandon Christ because of those who could not bare His words?

Among the thousands of Protestant denominations, there are many different interpretations of the Bible. Do we throw out the Bible and rewrite it?

Christ taught and prayed for one Church. St. Paul specifically wrote against schisms and taught for people to be of the same mind and judgement. Is thousands of denominations the answer to scriptures?

**Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.
**

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about. They did not speak about this “invisible” Church Protestants speak about today. The scriptures themselves were written to specific Churches and not this “invisible” Church.

You cannot say Christ started an invisible Church and yet speak in defense of the reformation, that is a contradiction in itself. The two are entirely different things, either you believe in the invisible Chuch or you believe in the reformed Church, which is it?

 

[anon52328184]

what does it actually mean to say the “invisible” church?

also, i was just wondering today if martin luther was happy with the result of his actions or if things had gotten out of hand and if when he died he had peace of mind from what came about because of his actions.

 

[Peter_J]

Please understand Scripture does not speak of the church as the Roman Catholic Church. What do you consider Protestant or Orthodox institutions? Do you consider them churches too? Paul and John (Revelation) speaks of multiple physical churches and a universal invisible church.

Reformed,

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church, i.e. the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” that we profess in the creed. In my own mind there’s no need to put the words “Roman Catholic” in front of “Church”.

But if someone asked me “What church do you belong to?” I would not respond with “I belong to the Church” or “I belong to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”. (Answering that way would tell them that I’ve have a high opinion of my church, but they still would not know which church I’m talking about.) Rather I would respond with “I belong to the Roman Catholic Church”.

 

[MagicKirk]

I’m well aware that many of you are able to throw mountains of words around. But honestly, it doesn’t do any good for someone who isn’t trained in catholic teachings.

I read through those posts and gathered very little information. Simple questions desire simple answers. Jesus didn’t use long-winded explanations to explain His teachings.

Hi Ryan. If you are still watching this thread, I suggest that you take the time to wade through whatever Manny has posted. I’m more of a lurker than a poster myself, but I have come to learn that Manny is always 100% Orthodox in regard to representing the Catholic faith.

One thing that you might have to get beyond (when trying to understand Catholicism) is that it isn’t necessarily simple. Steve Ray (a former protestant turned Catholic apologist) described this. He said that Protestants are at first thrilled when they discover Jesus is their buddy and their own personal Savior. At some point, however, many of them start to wonder if there is something more. If you want to understand the richness of Catholicism, you might want to be prepared to do a lot of reading. The Bible is just the beginning.

All those passages that are hard to understand… Many protestants (not all) tend to bleep over them. After 2,000 years of some of the most minds in Christendom have contributed to the depository of faith. If you ignore this vast depository you are only cheating yourself.

Sure there is a lot of reading. It will take the better part of a lifetime.

However, if you take the time and enjoy the journey, you’ll be a better man for it.

…just my unsolicited advice.

 

[MagicKirk]

Manny is always 100% Orthodox in regard to representing the Catholic faith.

No pun/ wordplay was intended

 

[jmcrae]

what does it actually mean to say the “invisible” church?

It means to say that there is nobody really in charge (especially not the Pope!!), and we can do whatever we want - we are “saved” by calling ourselves “Christians” but nobody really knows what that means, and nor is it really necessary to know what it means, because we are all happy, happy, happy Christians, and you can join whatever denomination you like (except for Catholic, of course, because of the Pope) or even just not go to church at all, if you don’t want to.

also, i was just wondering today if martin luther was happy with the result of his actions or if things had gotten out of hand and if when he died he had peace of mind from what came about because of his actions.

I don’t really know. I hope he repented at the end of his life, but there is no actual evidence that he ever did.

 

[anon52328184]

i am confused then because prodigal son1 said either you believe in the invisible church or the reformed church.

it sounds like you are saying they are one in the same.

i am roman catholic so i know which church i believe in. i just converted in july, but so many things have become clear to me since then.

i agree, i hope luther repented.

 

[jmcrae]

i am confused then because prodigal son1 said either you believe in the invisible church or the reformed church.

Prodigal is trying to get him to acknowledge some form of Church governance.

it sounds like you are saying they are one in the same.

Not really; someone who believes in the Reformation and honestly holds to the idea that the authority of the Church was transferred by God from the Papacy to one of the early Reformers, will not stand for talk of an “invisible church” any more than a Catholic would - they would insist that people need to belong to a church that follows the Reformed tradition and submits to a General Council.

i am roman catholic so i know which church i believe in. i just converted in july, but so many things have become clear to me since then.

I know what you mean. I studied the Church for 17 years before I converted, and then after I converted it was like I just started learning. I love this Church; there is no end to its treasures.

i agree, i hope luther repented.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

i am confused then because prodigal son1 said either you believe in the invisible church or the reformed church.

it sounds like you are saying they are one in the same.

i am roman catholic so i know which church i believe in. i just converted in july, but so many things have become clear to me since then.

i agree, i hope luther repented.

I’ve seen Protestants argue that Christ created a Church of Christianity within us (believers) all. They deny the Catholic Church was the Church Christ created. What I’m saying is, if you believe Christ created an invisible Church, you cannot believe in a Church started through a reformation of the Catholic Church, or vice versus.

 

[Peter_J]

Prodigal,

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about.

I’m willing to accept that ^^ was just an honest mistake. But what I’m wondering is, when the mistake was pointed out to you (post #47) why didn’t you just admit it?

 

[MagicKirk]

I’ve seen Protestants argue that Christ created a Church of Christianity within us (believers) all. They deny the Catholic Church was the Church Christ created. What I’m saying is, if you believe Christ created an invisible Church, you cannot believe in a Church started through a reformation of the Catholic Church, or vice versus.

Hi Prodigal.

I just want to make sure that I understand you.

Is your point that if the Church is invisible, there was no point in the Reformation?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal,

I’m willing to accept that ^^ was just an honest mistake. But what I’m wondering is, when the mistake was pointed out to you (post #47) why didn’t you just admit it?

See #52 and #57. Where I said both claim to be Catholic and both share many of the same dogmas. There is a difference between the schism and the reformation, in my opinion.

 

[Peter_J]

Okay, I just found it. I have been on the road for 5 hours and just arrived at my hotel. I was listening to a Catholic radio station and found it to be refreshing and very Protestant. They even quoted Mother Teresa saying that Mary was a sinner in need of redemption like the rest of us. They also used the Scriptures like a Protestant station. I knew there was a remnant inside the Catholic Church.

Do you happen to know which Mother Theresa they were referring to?

I’m pretty sure that Mother Theresa of Calcutta never said that Mary was a sinner.

St. Theresa of Avila conceivably could have said that (she lived before the Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined) but even that seems very unlikely.

 

[Reformed]

You bet Mary needed a redeemer just like the rest of us.

Thing is, she was ‘redeemed’ by Christ. . .at her conception.

Suppose a man is walking along a road. Suddenly there is an earthquake and he falls into a gap that opens. A man runs forward and throws him a rope and lifts him from the gap.

Another man is walking along the road and is getting close to that gap – the man with the rope grabs him by the arm and stops him from falling into the gap.

Both men have been rescued from falling into the gap, haven’t they?

The difference is, one man actually fell in and was hauled out. The other was saved from falling into the gap in the first place.

Humanity is like that first man–but Mary is like the second. Saved BEFORE falling into that gap.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread. But since the remark was thrown out rather parenthetically, as the poster was ‘praising us with faint damns’ so to speak, I thought it might as well be quickly ‘addressed’ rather than open up a thread, as the point is so quickly and easily explained.

I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother’s womb.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother’s womb.

Yes, so do we!

 

[Reformed]

what does it actually mean to say the “invisible” church?

also, i was just wondering today if martin luther was happy with the result of his actions or if things had gotten out of hand and if when he died he had peace of mind from what came about because of his actions.

In the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Protetstant churches, not all members will be in Heaven. Do you agree with that statement regarding those in the Catholic Church, that not all we end up in Heaven? All those who are in those visible churches stated above have a mix of those who will be in Heaven and those who will not. So, the invisible church only known perfectly by God, are those who will end up in Heaven.