The Reformation

[Reformed]

Reformed,

I am reposting my information as I really want to know your thoughts on these issues.

There were problems in the Church during the time of Martin Luther. Those problems were a result of “men” or the sins of men. Many, including Catholics, worked for a reformation of the Church. Martin Luther’s mistake was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To abandon Christ’s Church seemed to show a lack of faith in Christ’s promises to be with His Church until the consummation of the world.

Once Martin Luther broke away from the Church what happened? Everyone heard of his defense of sola scriptura. Even Martin Luther’s own followers left him and started their own Church based on their own private intrepretation. The end result is thousands of denominations of Protestantism today.

In John chapter 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. Do we abandon Christ because of those who could not bare His words?

Among the thousands of Protestant denominations, there are many different interpretations of the Bible. Do we throw out the Bible and rewrite it?

Christ taught and prayed for one Church. St. Paul specifically wrote against schisms and taught for people to be of the same mind and judgement. Is thousands of denominations the answer to scriptures?

**Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.
**

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about. They did not speak about this “invisible” Church Protestants speak about today. The scriptures themselves were written to specific Churches and not this “invisible” Church.

You cannot say Christ started an invisible Church and yet speak in defense of the reformation, that is a contradiction in itself. The two are entirely different things, either you believe in the invisible Chuch or you believe in the reformed Church, which is it?

I believe in the the invisible church consisting of God’s elect who collectively makeup the true church of God. It crosses denominational lines. I also call the elect as the remnant of God saved by grace alone.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed,

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church, i.e. the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” that we profess in the creed. In my own mind there’s no need to put the words “Roman Catholic” in front of “Church”.

But if someone asked me “What church do you belong to?” I would not respond with “I belong to the Church” or “I belong to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”. (Answering that way would tell them that I’ve have a high opinion of my church, but they still would not know which church I’m talking about.) Rather I would respond with “I belong to the Roman Catholic Church”.

Why do Catholics tend to identify themselves as Catholics first and Christian at a distant second?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe in the the invisible church consisting of God’s elect who collectively makeup the true church of God. It crosses denominational lines. I also call the elect as the remnant of God saved by grace alone.

Then you do not believe in the reformation of the Catholic Church that took place in the 1500s?

 

[mercygate]

In the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Protetstant churches, not all members will be in Heaven. Do you agree with that statement regarding those in the Catholic Church, that not all we end up in Heaven? All those who are in those visible churches stated above have a mix of those who will be in Heaven and those who will not. So, the invisible church only known perfectly by God, are those who will end up in Heaven.

For us the “invisible” Church is the Church in Heaven and of those who have died and are in the Church Expectant. The Church on earth IS visible, it is identifiable by history, consistency of teaching, by Apostolic Succession. The wheat AND the tares are in it together. The assurance we have in Christ is that the tares will not take her down.

We do not believe in double predestination. We do not believe that God’s perfect knowledge of who will reject Him in the final outcome means that they MUST reject him. While a sinner has breath, there is hope of his repentance.

 

[Reformed]

How about the Orthodox Church who rejects the Roman authority? (1 + 1 = 2)

Prodigal, post 47

I’m willing to accept that ^^ was just an honest mistake. But what I’m wondering is, when the mistake was pointed out to you (post #47) why didn’t you just admit it?

I’m not sure what you mean by a mistake in post 47? I know Christians who are of the Orthodox Christian Faith. Actually, the Orthodox Church claims to be the One True Church. And the Roman Catholic Church claims to be the One True Church.

Therefore 1 + 1 = 2 prior to the Protestant Reformation

 

[anon52328184]

there was a counter reformation, correct, in the 1500’s, but the reformation to me always refers to the creation of the protestant churches.

the counter-reformation was in the roman catholic church.

please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe in the the invisible church consisting of God’s elect who collectively makeup the true church of God. It crosses denominational lines. I also call the elect as the remnant of God saved by grace alone.

Then why did your people bother with creating the denominations, in the first place? Why couldn’t they just leave everyone in the same Church, where they started off from (which is the Catholic Church), instead of forcing everyone at the point of a sword to convert to some version of Protestantism?

 

[Reformed]

Do you happen to know which Mother Theresa they were referring to?

I’m pretty sure that Mother Theresa of Calcutta never said that Mary was a sinner.

St. Theresa of Avila conceivably could have said that (she lived before the Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined) but even that seems very unlikely.

Help me out fellow Oregonians!!!

The Catholic radio station about channel 88 which covers between Portland and Salem made that statement. Maybe it’s part of the internal Reformation…that remnant choosing to change Rome from the inside out? That station was very biblical and edifying! I think I found it. I heard that statement about 4:00 PM Pacific time, that Mary was a sinner and need of redemption like the rest of us according to Mother Theresa.

kbvm.fm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=1

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not sure what you mean by a mistake in post 47? I know Christians who are of the Orthodox Christian Faith. Actually, the Orthodox Church claims to be the One True Church. And the Roman Catholic Church claims to be the One True Church.

Therefore 1 + 1 = 2 prior to the Protestant Reformation

Not in the West; only in the East. In the West, there was only one Church from 30 AD until shortly after 1517 AD when Martin Luther, having been excommunicated from the Church, and based upon his own (complete and total lack of) authority, started up the Lutheran Church, straight out of nowhere except for his own head. (The only other time a religion ever got started like that was when Jesus Himself established the Catholic Church; every other religion derives from some form of recognizable authority - including the Eastern Orthodox, who retained and continue to retain Apostolic Succession in their line of Bishops.)

 

[Reformed]

I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother’s womb.

Yes, so do we!

Do you believe elect infants are regenerated and washed by the blood of Christ before they die in infancy? I do.

 

[mercygate]

Why do Catholics tend to identify themselves as Catholics first and Christian at a distant second?

To distinguish themselves from heretics.

“Catholic” and “Christian” are synonymous. If you lived in Russia, you would call yourself “Catholic” or “Orthdox.” Nobody would think for a minute that either a Catholic or Orthodox person were anything other than a Christian.

Non-Catholics have only in the past 40 or 50 years begun referring to themselves as ‘Christian’ in order to avoid the more proper term, “Protestant” which carries the taint of belligerance. Actually, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians usually refer to themselves by their distinctive denominational names. “Christians” tend to be from those groups that spring up independently of a denomination or that branch off of a denomination. “Nondenominational” is virtually synonymous with Baptist.

 

[Reformed]

Then you do not believe in the reformation of the Catholic Church that took place in the 1500s?

I believe the Council of Trent sealed the official apostasy of the Catholic Church by condemning the gospel of God’s grace. However, I believe God still works and saves a remnant inside the walls of Rome, in-spite of her official position on the gospel. I guess you cannot recant what was said at Trent and still remain infallible.

 

[MagicKirk]

Help me out fellow Oregonians!!!

The Catholic radio station about channel 88 which covers between Portland and Salem made that statement. Maybe it’s part of the internal Reformation…that remnant choosing to change Rome from the inside out? That station was very biblical and edifying! I think I found it. I heard that statement about 4:00 PM Pacific time, that Mary was a sinner and need of redemption like the rest of us according to Mother Theresa.

kbvm.fm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=1

The radio station has a link back to Catholic Answer Forums on its front page. …Maybe you heard wrong.

 

[Reformed]

For us the “invisible” Church is the Church in Heaven and of those who have died and are in the Church Expectant. The Church on earth IS visible, it is identifiable by history, consistency of teaching, by Apostolic Succession. The wheat AND the tares are in it together. The assurance we have in Christ is that the tares will not take her down.

We do not believe in double predestination. We do not believe that God’s perfect knowledge of who will reject Him in the final outcome means that they MUST reject him. While a sinner has breath, there is hope of his repentance.

Two Catholics posted in the predestination and Hitler thread that the magestirum allows you to believe in both single and double predestation. I think the two posts were 15 and 33. I actually like the poster of 15 and consider her my dear sister in Christ.

 

[mercygate]

A Catholic posted in the predestination and Hitler thread that the magestirum allows you to believe in both single and double predestation. I think the two posts were 15 and 33 making those statements by Roman Catholic Christians. I actually like the poster of 15 and consider her my dear sister in Christ.

You should know by now that it is necessary to check any such statement. Predestination to damnation (double predestination) is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe the Council of Trent sealed the official apostasy of the Catholic Church by condemning the gospel of God’s grace. However, I believe God still works and saves a remnant inside the walls of Rome, in-spite of her official position on the gospel. I guess you cannot recant what was said at Trent and still remain infallible.

You’ll have to be more specific with sources.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Two Catholics posted in the predestination and Hitler thread that the magestirum allows you to believe in both single and double predestation. I think the two posts were 15 and 33. I actually like the poster of 15 and consider her my dear sister in Christ.

Wow, are we like deliberately swaying the topic of discussion here?

 

[Reformed]

Then why did your people bother with creating the denominations, in the first place? Why couldn’t they just leave everyone in the same Church, where they started off from (which is the Catholic Church), instead of forcing everyone at the point of a sword to convert to some version of Protestantism?

I think there is great diversity within the walls of Rome. I bet American Catholicism is more biblical than Catholicism in predominate Catholic countries. I’m sure Rome allows this in America since you are surrounded by us Protestants. And remember, this country was founded and rooted in Protetstant Reformation Theology (Reformed Theology). You have to love those Pilgrims and Puritians fleeing from Rome and England.

 

[Reformed]

The radio station has a link back to Catholic Answer Forums on its front page. …Maybe you heard wrong.

Catholic Answers is American Catholicism…very much influenced by American Protestantism. I know the battle which goes on in American Catholic Churches.

 

[Reformed]

You should know by now that it is necessary to check any such statement. Predestination to damnation (double predestination) is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

Are you saying the Catholic poster of post 33 of the Predestination and Hitler thread is a heretic?