The Reformation

[Peter_J]

In the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Protetstant churches, not all members will be in Heaven. Do you agree with that statement regarding those in the Catholic Church, that not all we end up in Heaven? All those who are in those visible churches stated above have a mix of those who will be in Heaven and those who will not. So, the invisible church only known perfectly by God, are those who will end up in Heaven.

Thank you. I wouldn’t necessarily say I agree with your idea of “the invisible church”, but I think what you just said is very reasonable.

The Church is both infallible and sinless, but the members of the Church are fallible and sinful.

To a certain extent, an analogy could be made between what Reformed said and what I said: he believes that everyone who’s in the invisible church is going to heaven; I believe that every teaching of the Church is correct. (Hence, if an individual person, even the Pope, teaches something that is in fact false, then that is not really a teaching of the Church.)

 

[Reformed]

You’ll have to be more specific with sources.

I think my statement is a common one for historic Protestant Christians. Read the book Faith Alone by RC Sproul.

amazon.com/Faith-Alone-Evangelical-Doctrine-Justification/dp/080105849X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220927131&sr=1-1

 

[MagicKirk]

Catholic Answers is American Catholicism…very much influenced by American Protestantism. I know the battle which goes on in American Catholic Churches.

I’m not sure that I agree with what I think you are suggesting, - but you put a smiley face after it, so I guess that it’s okay.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think my statement is a common one for historic Protestant Christians. Read the book Faith Alone by RC Sproul.

I think that’s a dodge answer. I don’t have time to read many books right now, as you know, and I’m particular about what books I read.

You claim something about infallibility and then run off in another direction? Make your point clear and back it up with online sources, or it didn’t happen as far as I’m concerned.

 

[anon52328184]

i am still lost as to what “invisible” church means. is this referring to the catholic church, did someone make up this term, or is this part of the churches teaching?

i understand what happened in the 1500’s when luther began the reformation, which, in turn, led to the many denominations that we have today.

however, i still don’t understand the term “invisible” church.

 

[mercygate]

Are you saying the Catholic poster of post 33 of the Predestination and Hitler thread is a heretic?

I am not following the Predestination and Hitler thread and do not plan to go there. Heresy is defined as the obstinate post-baptismal denial or doubt of some truth that must be belieived with divine and catholic faith. While an individual may at any point hold heretical doctrines, that does not make him essentially a heretic. T

his thread is about the reformation, which began because people obstinately persisted in beliefs contradictory to the Apostolic faith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think my statement is a common one for historic Protestant Christians. Read the book Faith Alone by RC Sproul.

amazon.com/Faith-Alone-Evangelical-Doctrine-Justification/dp/080105849X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220927131&sr=1-1

Let’s see, read the early Church fathers, some of who practiced Christianity with the Apostles, or read a book by someone who follows a reformation of that Church 1500 years later…I’ll stick to the most accurate sources, thanks though.

 

[Reformed]

I think that’s a dodge answer. I don’t have time to read many books right now, as you know, and I’m particular about what books I read.

You claim something about infallibility and then run off in another direction? Make your point clear and back it up with online sources, or it didn’t happen as far as I’m concerned.

I know it’s a tough one my friend. There has been many attempted and failed ecumenical movements and documents recently (ECT 1, ECT 2, Joint declaration, etc). I still think there is a good size remnant inside the Catholic Church. Protestantism will not save you, nor will Roman Catholicism. The biblical Christ is saving all those whom the Father gave Him to save (gospel of John) to the praise of His glorious grace. Good night and thank you all for your company and fellowship. It’s tough to go back to work after being on vacation for a month. God is amazing!

 

[MagicKirk]

So, you are saying that the Council of Trent condemns the gospel of God’s grace.

You referred to Sproul, a protestant apologist.

Was this his interpretation of what the Council said?

Certainly the Council never said any such thing. I think that it would be interesting if you could even come up with the quote from Sproul that supports what you said.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I know it’s a tough one my friend. There has been many attempted and failed ecumenical movements and documents recently (ECT 1, ECT 2, Joint declaration, etc). I still think there is a good size remnant inside the Catholic Church. Protestantism will not save you, nor will Roman Catholicism. The biblical Christ is saving all those whom the Father gave Him to save (gospel of John) to the praise of His glorious grace. Good night and thank you all for your company and fellowship. It’s tough to go back to work after being on vacation for a month. God is amazing!

Does anyone understand what the heck he’s talking about?

 

[Reformed]

Let’s see, read the early Church fathers, some of who practiced Christianity with the Apostles, or read a book by someone who follows a reformation of that Church 1500 years later…I’ll stick to the most accurate sources, thanks though.

I was reading a book on the history of Christian docrine from a distinguished Reformed writer last night. The book starts off with the Church Fathers. I was quite interesting but not pro-catholic. You see, it depends how you understand the writings of the Church Fathers.

 

[anon52328184]

i am not sure. maybe predestination? i was confused also.

 

[Reformed]

So, you are saying that the Council of Trent condemns the gospel of God’s grace.

You referred to Sproul, a protestant apologist.

Was this his interpretation of what the Council said?

Certainly the Council never said any such thing. I think that it would be interesting if you could even come up with the quote from Sproul that supports what you said.

Read the book, and you’ll find Sproul’s position on Trent and his conclusion to be mainstream Protetsant thinking within those Protestants who are well studied on the subject.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I was reading a book on the history of Christian docrine from a distinguished Reformed writer last night. The book starts off with the Church Fathers. I was quite interesting but not pro-catholic. You see, it depends how you understand the writings of the Church Fathers.

Yes, we’ve locked horns on private interpretations before. Your problem is which denomination you’re depending on. As a Calvinist, you follow a reformer of the reformation it appears.

 

[MagicKirk]

I was reading a book on the history of Christian docrine from a distinguished Reformed writer last night. The book starts off with the Church Fathers. I was quite interesting but not pro-catholic. You see, it depends how you understand the writings of the Church Fathers.

Do you read the ECFs (in their whole) yourself, or excerpts from Protestant apologists? If it is the later, it would be like taking Biblical verses out of context to prove whatever you want them to prove

 

[Peter_J]

"Prodigal Son1:

Reformers definitely believe a reformation of the Catholic Church took place in the 1500s. Until that time there was only ONE Church, the same Church Christ created and St. Paul wrote about.

I’m not sure what you mean by a mistake in post 47? I know Christians who are of the Orthodox Christian Faith. Actually, the Orthodox Church claims to be the One True Church. And the Roman Catholic Church claims to be the One True Church.

Therefore 1 + 1 = 2 prior to the Protestant Reformation

No, I wasn’t saying that #47 was a mistake.

Keep in mind that jmcrae said:

I assume he intended to say that prior to the schism of the East, the Church was one.

So then I’m saying to myself “Okay, I could accept that Prodigal Son1 made an honest mistake, as jmcrae suggests, but then why didn’t he just admit it when it was brought to his attention (post #47)?” So that’s what I was asking him.

 

[MagicKirk]

Read the book, and you’ll find Sproul’s position on Trent and his conclusion to be mainstream Protetsant thinking within those Protestants who are well studied on the subject.

My favorite Protestant apologist is Scott Hahn. …of course he converted to Catholicism.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe the Council of Trent sealed the official apostasy of the Catholic Church by condemning the gospel of God’s grace.

Where in the Council of Trent does it condemn the concept of grace?

However, I believe God still works and saves a remnant inside the walls of Rome, in-spite of her official position on the gospel. I guess you cannot recant what was said at Trent and still remain infallible.

I have read the Council of Trent, and there is nothing in it that I have any serious issues with; I don’t think Luther would have, either, if he had bothered to study it. (I suppose he must have been very elderly when it came out, though.)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No, I wasn’t saying that #47 was a mistake.

Keep in mind that jmcrae said:

So then I’m saying to myself “Okay, I could accept that Prodigal Son1 made an honest mistake, as jmcrae suggests, but then why didn’t he just admit it when it was brought to his attention (post #47)?” So that’s what I was asking him.

I told you I did address it in a way by stating, like Manny, that in 1054 there was a schism, which I view much differently than a reformation.

 

[Peter_J]

Prodigal Son1,

Take it up with jmcrae, not me. (Although it seems to me that he/she was just trying to help you out. )