The reformation

[CMatt25]

Or if you are Lutheran, that the creaking noises of a house as it expands and contracts with the heat of the day are really the noises of the devil himself coming after you, just like your founder.

Maybe I’m misreading this. But are you saying the devil is like the founder of Lutheranism? Wouldn’t that make Luther like the devil then? And if this is what you were saying, is this allowed?

 

[momor]

Ha1 Ha! I assume you re being funny and not simply hostile.

As I have said several times, I am a product of a Catholic/Protestant heritage. Indeed, one of my ancestral kin (paternal side) was Archbishop of Quebec nearly 200 years ago. On the maternal line, an ancestor in Belgium was ordered to appear before the City Countil of Ghent, He had become a Huguenot in the 16th century and he knew that this likely met execution, or at least torture and imprisonment. So, that very night he fled with his family, ended up in England, and his grandson, by then a Puritan, came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

I presume this mixed heritage had led me to wish and work fervently for an ecumenical spirit rather than continued sniping and stereotyping. My postings should be read in this context.

In my view, both traditions have been scarred by superstition, bitterness, pettiness, misunderstanding and a woeful lack of Christian charity. As I recall (I Cor. 13) love is even more important than faith. I interpret that to mean that love of one another outranks doctrinal differences. I wish more of such love was evident with some of those who post here on CAF. 

I strongly believe in a 'big tent' Christianity (unity, not union), where honest people who may hold differing viewpoints can come together and dialogue in a spirit of friendship and mutual respect. I always liked the statement of John Wesley which went something like this: "If you love God as I love God, if you wish to serve Christ as I wish to serve Christ, let us join hands and walk together." He also is quoted as suggesting that we "think and let think". Amen!

This notion that only one church has a monopoly on the full splendor of truth in this mammoth, marvelous, miraculous and mysterious universe troubles me. My own feeling is that we all live in considerable ignorance in a world with perhaps a billion or two solar systems. I know, of course, that such independent thinking is condemned as egotism, but so be it. But when we arrive in that world to come I suspect that all of us and all of our doctrines and theories will seem primitive compared to the ultimate truth. But, thank God, the Lord is merciful, quick to forgive us our human pride, errors, and silliness. 

God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Appreciate the sentiment behind what you have written and I accept that most Christians who are trying to serve God are doing their best regardless of denomination and God sees and understands that.

But I am not willing to see the Catholic faith and doctrine diluted by Christian relativism. We are the original and one true Church and I want to see others return to the same Mother Church which they would have been part of if they had been born before the 1500’s. We didn’t wander away from other Christians, they wandered away from Catholicism.

 

[CMatt25]

As I recall (I Cor. 13) love is even more important than faith. I interpret that to mean that love of one another outranks doctrinal differences. I wish more of such love was evident with some of those who post here on CAF.

I strongly believe in a ‘big tent’ Christianity (unity, not union), where honest people who may hold differing viewpoints can come together and dialogue in a spirit of friendship and mutual respect. I always liked the statement of John Wesley which went something like this: “If you love God as I love God, if you wish to serve Christ as I wish to serve Christ, let us join hands and walk together.” He also is quoted as suggesting that we “think and let think”. Amen!

This notion that only one church has a monopoly on the full splendor of truth in this mammoth, marvelous, miraculous and mysterious universe troubles me. My own feeling is that we all live in considerable ignorance in a world with perhaps a billion or two solar systems. I know, of course, that such independent thinking is condemned as egotism, but so be it. But when we arrive in that world to come I suspect that all of us and all of our doctrines and theories will seem primitive compared to the ultimate truth. But, thank God, the Lord is merciful, quick to forgive us our human pride, errors, and silliness.

God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Roy I tend to agree with all the above.

Perhaps some would say though Wesley did not love God as they do, if they equate loving God with their particular doctrine. But this notion about a monolopy on the splendor of God troubles me too. As a result I have been accused of thinking God’s omnipotence can not overcome our human limitations.

But indeed 1Cor 13:13 says, "So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

So yes in the end, love, we believe, will be more important than faith differences.

Thank you for that reminder. God bless and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

We are the original and one true Church and I want to see others return to the same Mother Church which they would have been part of if they had been born before the 1500’s. We didn’t wander away from other Christians, they wandered away from Catholicism.

Yes that is your faith. It is the faith you place in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself, Her interpretation of the Scriptures, and your faith in Her interpretation of the ECFs and tradition, which allows you to reach your belief. None of us on CAF today were eyewitnesses. We walk by faith. Not by sight. God bless and peace.

 

[panner]

Are you willing to accept an entirely God-centered response?

Speaking as the other side for a minute I don’t think Catholics could. It would be totally inconceivable.

Thinking about it. Catholicism is like Windows, Orthodox are like Apple, and Protestantism is like Linux

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

It seems to me a particularly good question, apropos of current climate in the Church.

There were legitimate complaints leveled at the Church. She had her defenders and she had her attackers, but she did not have our Papa Bene.

Right now, there is division among Catholics. I speak specifically of SSPX, but suspect that there are other easy examples. They are Catholics who have observed problems. They are knowledgeable about our Church’s history and doctrine. They love the Church. Unfortunately, they lack humility. Maybe it is not analogous, but is looks similar to me.

The reformation happened because there were problems in the Church. The devil exploited those problems by enraging some against them to the point that they were not capable of humility. They railed against these problems, but ultimately threw out the baby with the bath water, and left! They lost sight of that one simple little verse. “…and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” The Church will have problems; she has had problems. But we know that though we are sinful, we are protected by the Holy Spirit from errors in doctrine- if not in application of that doctrine. We know that there is only one Church, founded by Christ. Leaving the Church is cutting yourself off from that single unique Church. When splits happen, it is devastating. I picture the broken and tattered body of our abused and beaten Lord on his way to the cross.

I mentioned our current pope because I believe he has worked hard to avoid another split. He reaches out to SSPX, in charity but without bowing. At the same time, he is bringing back home others from other denominations. He is a champion of truth, but also of charity and unity.

So, what could have been done? A little more listening to the complaints, in charity. A little more humility on the side of the reformers. A lot more prayer.

 

[cooterhein]

The schismatic churches have continued to splinter into thousands of denominations while the Latin Church they splintered from has remained unified.

Except, of course, for the thousands of denominations that splintered away from the Catholic Church. And then, just as soon as they leave, it’s like you forget that they broke away from you.

 

[cooterhein]

Speaking as the other side for a minute I don’t think Catholics could. It would be totally inconceivable.

Because such disunity is against God’s will, or perhaps only in His permissive will? If it’s ok to call it disunity. I’m not entirely sure.

Thinking about it. Catholicism is like Windows, Orthodox are like Apple, and Protestantism is like Linux

I’m trying not to overthink this. What are the points of comparison? I can think of several that could be fun.

 

[mark_a]

Ha1 Ha! I assume you re being funny and not simply hostile.

As I have said several times, I am a product of a Catholic/Protestant heritage. Indeed, one of my ancestral kin (paternal side) was Archbishop of Quebec nearly 200 years ago. On the maternal line, an ancestor in Belgium was ordered to appear before the City Countil of Ghent, He had become a Huguenot in the 16th century and he knew that this likely met execution, or at least torture and imprisonment. So, that very night he fled with his family, ended up in England, and his grandson, by then a Puritan, came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

I presume this mixed heritage had led me to wish and work fervently for an ecumenical spirit rather than continued sniping and stereotyping. My postings should be read in this context.

In my view, both traditions have been scarred by superstition, bitterness, pettiness, misunderstanding and a woeful lack of Christian charity. As I recall (I Cor. 13) love is even more important than faith. I interpret that to mean that love of one another outranks doctrinal differences. I wish more of such love was evident with some of those who post here on CAF.

I strongly believe in a ‘big tent’ Christianity (unity, not union), where honest people who may hold differing viewpoints can come together and dialogue in a spirit of friendship and mutual respect. I always liked the statement of John Wesley which went something like this: “If you love God as I love God, if you wish to serve Christ as I wish to serve Christ, let us join hands and walk together.” He also is quoted as suggesting that we “think and let think”. Amen!

This notion that only one church has a monopoly on the full splendor of truth in this mammoth, marvelous, miraculous and mysterious universe troubles me. My own feeling is that we all live in considerable ignorance in a world with perhaps a billion or two solar systems. I know, of course, that such independent thinking is condemned as egotism, but so be it. But when we arrive in that world to come I suspect that all of us and all of our doctrines and theories will seem primitive compared to the ultimate truth. But, thank God, the Lord is merciful, quick to forgive us our human pride, errors, and silliness.

God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

I don’t think all that will fit in your profile’s “religion” field. I was thinking maybe one-three words like “Freelance Trinitarian”, “non-denominational”, etc. Using “Christian” is really the same as saying “guess”.

 

[panner]

Because such disunity is against God’s will, or perhaps only in His permissive will? If it’s ok to call it disunity. I’m not entirely sure.

Good answer

I’m trying not to overthink this. What are the points of comparison? I can think of several that could be fun.

Don’t know, I just thought it up and had to post it. Comes from being a computer geek

 

[mark_a]

But are you saying the devil is like the founder of Lutheranism?

Not at all.

 

[momor]

Except, of course, for the thousands of denominations that splintered away from the Catholic Church. And then, just as soon as they leave, it’s like you forget that they broke away from you.

I don’t know where you get thousands. There were only a few mainline protestant churches who broke with the Catholic Church. The thousands of splinter denominations since then never had any association with the Catholic Church before they broke off from other churches.

 

[gcnuss]

The schismatic churches have continued to splinter into thousands of denominations while the Latin Church they splintered from has remained unified. Now Anglicans are coming back. That’s why I say no thanks to the idea of abandoning doctrinal purity to “creative thinkers”.

I’m curious as to where you place the various sedevacantist Catholic churches. They certainly don’t see themselves as Protestant and, in fact, claim to be the true Catholic Church. Are they splinters of the Latin Church, fracturing its unity?

 

[fred_conty]

The very evening before Jesus died, yours and mine, He said, “Father that they may all be one as I am in You and you are in me, that they may all be one in Us.” That was His desire, that you and all of us would be one. Almost his dying wish for us to be united to Him as one family. This was close to his heart.

IWere any of us alive during those days when all the misery took place to the mystical body of Christ? That hurts all of us today. That was a terrible blow.

I think we should be honest, but at the same time, caring.

Since I was a boy growing up in a middle class neighbohood, I’ve always experienced kindness from every faith. A Jewish family on one side, and a Protestant neighbor on the other. Great neighbors and people. Two or three Catholic families on the block, the rest were Protestant or non goers. Really nice people who didn’t ask what faith are you, although they probably knew, but didn’t have any thing to do with the way they treated us. We had a Lutheran who my dad made a partner in his business, who I thought was better behaved than my own relatives and had all our respect. I could go on, but I don’t think I need to. When anyone is in trouble, everyone comes running regardless of faith.
Protestants say that they walk by faith alone, but I know them really by their good works they do. Some of them say they believe in predestination but I don’t see it because of the nice things they do.

To end, this is what caused the Reformation, lack of of the above.

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by gcnuss
I’m curious as to where you place the various sedevacantist Catholic churches. They certainly don’t see themselves as Protestant and, in fact, claim to be the true Catholic Church. Are they splinters of the Latin Church, fracturing its unity?

ANY “church” that breaks away from HMC is no longer in union with Rome making that “church” itself in schism, regardless of how they may see themselves or what they claim to be.
The One Holy Catholic Church is not, has never been, nor can ever be “fractured”.
Even the Orthodox, whom we recognize, are in schism from The One True Church instituted by Christ Himself and for whom, along with the Anglicans, we constantly pray to come home to Rome.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know what the Church could have done to avoid the reformation. I don’t think it could be avoided. There were always going to be those within the church who are schismatic, those who will try to twist the word of God and ignore the traditions of His Church, those who are mislead by the temptations of the world.

Pass the title and duty of Pontiff to a secular ruler, and stay out of secular politics. Do not let the earthly rulers appoint or influence the bishops, or any activity of the Church. Remember that His Kingdom is not of this world.

 

[mark_a]

Are they splinters of the Latin Church, fracturing its unity?

I would think so. Why else would the pope reach out to them?

 

[guanophore]

Yes that is your faith. It is the faith you place in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself, Her interpretation of the Scriptures, and your faith in Her interpretation of the ECFs and tradition, which allows you to reach your belief. None of us on CAF today were eyewitnesses. We walk by faith. Not by sight. God bless and peace.

CMatt, what you are saying is that there is no objective divine witness to Truth on this earth. Where is God in your equation?

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, what you are saying is that there is no objective divine witness to Truth on this earth. Where is God in your equation?

Guan, no one on this earth today was an eyewitness. In faith God is in the heart. If you need to believe you know with absolute certainty that your faith is the one truth, that’s fine. Many do. But faith and certainty seem oxymorons to me. I only know I am human and know so is everyone else of faith. God bless you on your faith walk and peace,

 

[guanophore]

Guan, no one on this earth today was an eyewitness.

So, what are you saying, CMatt? If you had seen all this with your own eyes, then you would believe it? Otherwise, you can’t know for sure that it is real?

What you are saying is that God cannot keep His promises.

Isa 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

God put His word into the Church, but was unable to preserve it there after all the “eyewitnesses” died?

  In faith God is in the heart.  If you need to believe you know with absolute certainty that your faith is the one truth, that's fine.  Many do.  But faith and certainty seem oxymorons to me.  I only know I am human and know so is everyone else of faith.  God bless you on your faith walk and peace,

What you are saying is that the frailties of humans are more powerful than the promises of God. He made promises of certainty, but was unable or unwilling to keep them.

John 14:18-22

18 “I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”

You don’t seem to believe that Jesus has revealed Himself to the Church, as He promised.