The Reformation

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Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
 
Any torture, murder, persecution, which in many instances occurred as much for political reasons and often carried out at the wish of political leaders in the name of but not in the spirit of God are against the commandment of God, “thou shalt not kill”.

Can the murders and persecutions of the Protestants be viewed separately unless there is some underlying wish to vilify Catholics?🙂 The question equally is, whether you like it or not, equally applicable to Protestants. 🙂 In all cases, political interests led to religious persecution which is contrary to the commandments of God, and of the value of each human life and freedom of conscience and therefore horrific on all counts
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
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There is a misconception from protestantism who are incorrectly believe what secular powers who were Catholic did and blame the Catholic Church as the culprit.

Simply render to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and render to God what belongs to God.

It should be noted that the Catholic Church never has a capital punishment law. There is a fine line drawn here.
 
the burning of John Wycliff
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This was done after his death. I am not horrified but I think it a little silly to a 21st century mind. Putting it back to the time he lived it does not bother me. He was a detriment to those in the Church. Scripture says woe to those who scandlize the innocent.
burning of William Tyndale
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He was strangeled to death and then his body burned.
It is hard for are minds to understand that heresy was a danger to the peace of the community. In Colorado, a man was hanged because he was a bad influence. This type of mind set is hard to understand for our 21 century minds.
Martin Luther
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was rightfully persecuted as is any heritic. The damage he did has yet to be corrected.
I would not call it slaughter. Other than the ones you have mentioned who else are you speaking about?

Joseph Smith? That is a can of worms.

I don’t know a lot about these men. But it all has to be set into the context of the time and mind set. I do not view it the same way you do. aArocities abound in all ages and the ones you mention are not paticularly outstanding compared to Hitler.
 
Each individual is responsible for his/her own actions and sins. The atrocities that took place during the Reformation aren’t the fault of the Church or the various Protestant faiths. They’re the fault of those who ignored Christ’s teachings and commited them.
 
Though one life is too much, the number of lives lost on both sides are exagerated. The real crime is the seperation of christians from being one family.

To be steeped in history is to ceast to be protestant. This is a pharse used by many.

From my study of the reformation, my conclusion is that the royalty of Europe saw the challenge to the authority of the RCC by Martin Luther as an opportunity gain independence from Rome and to take back all the lands and churches that were given to the RCC for services rendered over hundreds of years. The Royalty of Europe depended and petitioned the RCC to take care of many civil matters because they were competant and could be trusted. Such services as Schools, Hospitals, Legal systems, as well as civil projects such as roads, bridges, etc were performed by the RCC for the heads of state in most of the European countries. The RCC was compensated with lands on which they built churches and monasteries as well as farmed and the land made fruitful. The reformation came during the renasance period which was also called the time of enlightenment. A time when the royalty felt they could now handle or wanted to handle the affairs that were formally handled by the church. Therefore the royals welcomed the challenge and supported Martin Luther not so much on theological grounds but on the grounds of authority. Luther’s first bible included all of the same books as the Catholic bible and luther believed in almost all of the Catholic teachings. His stance changed over time due to pressure to be different enough to form a seperate religion. A side benefit was that the Royalty would also take back all the lands and churches which had formally belong to the RCC. Over night riches for the royalty that backed up Martin Luther. Another side benefit is that these royals could also crown themselves without the Blessing of the Pope.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
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Since both sides have owned up to behaving poorly - it’s best to put this behind us and move on.
That’s about it for my thoughts.

Peace
James
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Would you agree, or not, that a church (any church) has the right to discipline its membership and ensure that those who teach in its name are teaching according to the principles it lays out for instruction?

For example, would it be appropriate for someone to call himself a Southern Baptist preacher, but go around preaching things contrary to what the Southern Baptist Convention has agreed ought to be taught? And if he refused to be stopped or corrected, what measures might be taken to force him to stop?

The Reformers were presenting themselves as Catholic priests and teaching things contrary to the Catholic faith - and not only that, but calling into question the authority of the Church, and calling for violence against the Bishops and against Catholic institutions such as schools and monasteries. Luther’s armies rampaged through Europe burning down convents, monasteries, churches, and schools. They weren’t stopped until they got to Rome and vandalized the Vatican. Thousands of innocent women and children were burned to death.

How was the Church supposed to react to this?

The discipline meted out by the Church to those who were found to be guilty of heresy was in accordance with the norms of the time - Luther was excommunicated and removed from his community; Tynedale’s Bishop refused to remove him (although he did rebuke him), so the members of his congregation hanged him (they weren’t supposed to do that; they did it because they were frustrated and didn’t know what else to do about him) - Wycliff died a natural death while under house arrest.

I have noticed that neither Wycliffe’s nor Tynedale’s Bibles are used by any Protestants today. Why not? It is most likely because they were openly heretical translations, well deserving of being burned. It makes no sense to defend them, unless you would ever actually use them. But no right-thinking Christian ever would, because of the heresies that they contain.
 
Cursilista said:
Though one life is too much, the number of lives lost on both sides are exagerated. The real crime is the seperation of christians from being one family.

To be steeped in history is to ceast to be protestant. This is a pharse used by many.

From my study of the reformation, my conclusion is that the royalty of Europe saw the challenge to the authority of the RCC by Martin Luther as an opportunity gain independence from Rome and to take back all the lands and churches that were given to the RCC for services rendered over hundreds of years. The Royalty of Europe depended and petitioned the RCC to take care of many civil matters because they were competant and could be trusted. Such services as Schools, Hospitals, Legal systems, as well as civil projects such as roads, bridges, etc were performed by the RCC for the heads of state in most of the European countries. The RCC was compensated with lands on which they built churches and monasteries as well as farmed and the land made fruitful. The reformation came during the renasance period which was also called the time of enlightenment. A time when the royalty felt they could now handle or wanted to handle the affairs that were formally handled by the church. Therefore the royals welcomed the challenge and supported Martin Luther not so much on theological grounds but on the grounds of authority. Luther’s first bible included all of the same books as the Catholic bible and luther believed in almost all of the Catholic teachings. His stance changed over time due to pressure to be different enough to form a seperate religion. A side benefit was that the Royalty would also take back all the lands and churches which had formally belong to the RCC. Over night riches for the royalty that backed up Martin Luther. Another side benefit is that these royals could also crown themselves without the Blessing of the Pope.
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Reformers sometimes became saints, and Martin Luther could have been one of that number. But he allowed himself to become a tool, alas.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
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JL: Just as death, capital punishment, in our day is now beginning to be viewed as not acceptable. Those modes of capital punishment were only beginning to be viewed as unacceptable. All those, Catholic or Protestant, who have done wrong and not repented will face a just God.
 
Think of the acts committed in context to scripture. If you thought people were coming to tear people from the One True Faith, and were convinced they were of the devil, how would you react? I’m sure some people thought this was the beginning of the loosing of Satan into the world, to deceive and devour. People may have thought that this was the beginning of the end, and acted according to that notion.

Revelation 20:[7] And when the thousand years shall be finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations, which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [8] And they came upon the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city

Many may have thought they were fighting agents of Satan, and defending God’s Church.
 
surritter said:
hmmm… hyperbole?
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Definitely. I can’t think of a single Protestant who ever actually received a legal death penalty from either the Church or any faithfully Catholic monarch. Tynedale was murdered by a lynch mob - members of his own congregation who were simply fed up with his heresies. And he’s the only one I can think of who didn’t die of old age. 🤷
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Wycliff was not ‘burned’. He died of natural causes.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut in the area of the mass. In my former thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=647040
I asked about the mass. Very helpful indeed were some of the responses.

Here’s my next question…

Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers? For instance, the burning of John Wycliff, burning of William Tyndale, persecution of Martin Luther, slaughter after slaughter of protestant reformers… I will be the first to recognize the horror and dismay at what my protestant forebears committed against Catholics and other races of people in return (i.e. Ireland, Southern Baptists with racist elements in the American south, etc…). But my question isn’t about what Protestants did, I will own up to that. My question is about what Catholics did. Please don’t try to just point out what protestants did wrong. Again, I acknowledge the wrong of protestants. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The Protestant Reformation was very ugly on both sides. It took centuries for Europe to recover demographically from the devastation caused by the conflicts of the Reformation, especially with regards to the Thirty Years’ War.
 
Christ_Bearer said:
Whether or not Catholics like or dislike the protestant reformation, are most if not all Catholics horrified at the atrocities that were committed against many of the protestant reformers?
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The harsh reality is that Protestants have persecuted just as much Catholics. But a mere 150 years ago nobody on this earth even existed, and the people who lived many centuries ago have already been judged by God, just as we will be judged when our time is up.
 
The church teaches the unchanging truth that it is wrong to kill.
The church as an institution of Christ has never strayed from this teaching, but sadly, individuals within the church have killed others (not including just wars). We are a church that welcomes sinners, because it is us sinners who need saving (which would be all of us). But us sinners acting out and killing people doesn’t change that the church itself, as Christ’s institution, is still a good thing that teaches truth. It just means that the people within it mess up. 😊

I do *not *agree with those who are saying that killings in the past are justifiable based on threats to the faith. The truth of God is unchanging, and human life is infinitely valuable, even if that human life is spreading heresy. They still deserve to be treated with respect and not to be killed. But just because it’s not justifiable doesn’t mean the church is bad. The individual is accountable for their own choices.
Although some people did bring up the good point that some of these burnings could be posthumous burnings, which may have been a burial practice… However, I do not know about that issue.
 
None of this could have occurred without the fall in Genesis 3. After that, all bets were off. I would suggest focusing solely on the catechism if you want to learn what Catholicism both believes and teaches. Ugliness abounds in all of human history.
 
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