The Relationship between faith & good works

[rinnie]

I don’t think its wrong to do good works to enter heaven. Why do them if not to be in heaven with God.

We obey all of the commands of God to gain heaven.

But where the problem came is SIMPLY THIS. FAITH ALONE without works.

We are taught no such thing as faith alone, not even possible without Grace. Grace alone, that’s okay.

You can say I do good works by Grace Alone, that’s okay because that means by the grace of God not on your own.

That is why the Church will not accept faith alone. Because that means you have faith alone, apart from the Grace of God.

If protestants would understand what the Church is saying they would HAVE to agree, or say they don’t need God or his grace they can have faith without him.

If they would take the time to see what the Church is teaching instead of arguing with it, they would understand.

And when you use the grace of God to do good work it produces good works. If you do good works without the grace of God (anotherwards without the grace of God its other motives) its useless.

You boast on what YOU did, not what the grace of God has given you to do.

A true Catholic will say there are no good works or faith without the Grace of God.

So faith alone!! Nope!!

 

[JonNC]

Hi rinnie,

=rinnie;11988010]Because we are saved by the Grace of God and by Christ o the cross. And if we did not have grace from God we could not even have faith or works.

Agreed.

So by the grace of God we are given faith to do good works. But we can also reject the grace and faith given to us by God and refuse to do good works.

Agreed.

Having faith and not using it is fruitless, it produces nothing.

Agreed.

But when we do good, even though we need grace to do good, we still have free will to do it. We do it not on our own but by the grace of God. We use the Grace.

The guidance of the Spirit working in us. Agreed.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

And a bit more from Luther’s Smalcald Articles:

Part III, Article XIII. How One is Justified before God, and of Good Works.

"What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.

“And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ’s sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1:31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.”

 

[babylonfalling]

I think the protestant fairly presses the question “Are you saved by the good works you do? That is do you attempt to do good works in order to receive heaven.” I can only answer no, because I see my sin. But I also see in scripture the imperative not live the same old ordinary life one has left before, we are told to do good and good we must do (does any protestant deny that we must do good?). I think the protestant when pressed will ultimately have to say in order to have a legitimate faith it will necessarily be accompanied by good works or else it is the wrong sort of faith, mere profession.

In this regard I don’t see a difference, that is a practical and real difference between the various traditions that shows any marked difference in reality, only a difference in how it is explained, that is how God accomplishes his task. I cannot defend Roman catholicism’s view nor can I speak for all orthodox but when I look in the liturgy, the daily prayers we are supposed to say, there is an emphasis there on the sin we have committed. The morning prayer includes psalm 50 (51) in which our sins are bitterly remembered. But we do not also merely remember our sins and repent of them but also the hope and promise of God “Having risen from sleep, I hasten to thee, O master, Lover of mankind, and by thy loving kindness, I strive to do thy work, and I pray to thee: Help me at all times, in everything, and deliver me from every worldly, evil thing and every impulse of the devil, and save me, and lead me into thine eternal kingdom. For thou art my creator . and giver and provider of everything good, and in thee is all my hope, unto thee i do send up my glory, now and ever and to the ages of ages amen.”

There is that emphasis again in Jesus being the author of our salvation that we do not work for salvation: “For if thou should save me by my works, this would not be grace, or a gift, but rather a duty, yea, thou who art compassion and ineffable in mercy.”

In Orthodoxy there is synergy as opposed to monergism. God is the one who starts the process and we are to the best of our abilities conform to God and God will finish it and help us in our failure. I do not know of a protestant who would not say they strive to conform to God, but they would say that it is not them but God working in them. Modern protestants of all kinds seem opposed to the mere suggestion of doing good, that any attempt to do so is an attempt to buy salvation. Almost like doing good should come naturally without effort and I do not think this position is biblical. What I do think is biblical is to strive to do good, not buy our salvation but rather for the sake of God. I think that might be one of the reasons protestants rejected monasticism because they could not conceive of dedicating oneself to purity for the love of God. We ultimately do good because we love God and for no other reason, that should be the goal. Of course all know how bad each and everyone one of us is and we are to confess daily.

I also think good works are essential, in order to demonstrate our love for Christ. But I do not then deny the salvation of one who repents and had no chance to do good. Jesus says he receives the last first and the first last. I do not think there can be any one ideology of judging salvation, because only God can decide perfectly who is saved, who had genuine faith, who lived out that genuine faith.

In everything I have read of the fathers and of the church I see different emphases leading to the same destination. Same as in scripture. “He who loves me, will keep my commandments.” “Oh wretched man I am, who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our lord!” " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." “We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.” “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.”

I think in trying to formulate neat theological answers we miss the point sometimes. I don’t think, from what I’ll readily admit is my limited reading and knowledge roman Catholics or Protestants have obtained the perfect answer as to the relationship between good works and faith.

None of have the perfect answer for this. There is a balance and an active relationship between faith and works though. It’s not one but both. Both enhance the other and neither amount to much without the presence of the other.

It may be that faith is not genuine without works and likewise, works have no holiness to them without faith.

 

[spina1953]

There are those who call themselves Christian but when it comes to helping others (good works) they don’t help but claim to have faith. There are those who do good works and take credit for it when they do but have little or no faith. There are those who say that all one needs is faith yet, do no good works, and there are those who say that one has to do good works, yet some will say one does not need faith to do good works. Then there re those who say that doing good works will not get one into heaven so why do it? Others say that all one needs is faith to get into heaven. But how does one sow faith? It seems to me that when one does good works out of love for God not seeking any credit or merit but does it with faith that even if the good work is not done very well all the same God is pleased since in the end when a person does good works of whatever kind it is really God working through that person.

Jesus said that not everyone who says Jesus, I did this or I did that in your name get into heaven, but the truth is that Jesus is saying that if one has faith in Him(Jesus) and does whatever work out of love for Him and not for self credit or praise from others so that in doing good works that it will shine in away that brings glory to God and also those who see the good works will give praise to God.

 

[babylonfalling]

Right. I think James implies someone can have ‘a faith’ which does not lead to salvation because it lacks works.

Jesus acknowledges many who will say to Him that they have done certain things in His name (prophecied, cast out demon, etc) yet He did not know them! They must believe in His gospel to some extent, yet somehow do not truly convert and follow.

There is not really a cut and dry definition for salvation. We know that faith is how we access the gift and works are how we actually participate in His life. But each person must open their heart to God in order to find the profitable goodness of the Lord.

If not, then salvation is possible even with a dead faith

 

[spina1953]

If not, then salvation is possible even with a dead faith

Hi babylonfalling: Good point! additionally did not Jesus say something along the lines of “If you do not believe in me then believe in the works I do?” meaning that to have faith in God is not enough if one does no works?

 

[wmscott]

What do you make of Eph. 2:8-9?

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT by works, so that no one can boast.”

In context:

From the Haydocks Bible Commentary (LINK)

Ver. 8. Faith is the beginning, foundation, and root of justification, and the first of all other virtues, without which it is impossible to please God. (Bristow)

Ver. 9. Not of works, as of our own growth, or from ourselves: but as from the grace of God. (Challoner)

 

[babylonfalling]

Hi babylonfalling: Good point! additionally did not Jesus say something along the lines of “If you do not believe in me then believe in the works I do?” meaning that to have faith in God is not enough if one does no works?

That’s not the only place where Jesus Christ actually told people to go out and do something.

 

[JonNC]

That’s not the only place where Jesus Christ actually told people to go out and do something.

And Lutherans respond to His call for us to do good works. From the Augsburg Confession:

Article VI: Of New Obedience.

1] Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification 2] before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

We are saved by grace thru faith.

We do good works BECAUSE of the work that has begun within us. We do good works because NOW that is our nature to do so. We do good works because NOW God’s Spirit resides within us and we become new creations in Christ.

We do not become new creations because we do good works…we do good works because we are new creations.

Our works stem not from a need to do them in order to be “saved”…we do them because we are “saved”.

Christ alone is our Righteousness, we can do nothing to merit this astounding grace, it is a gift which He offers freely…and once we possess this Gift, the Change within us begins, and as we walk in Christ, and have our minds renewed in Christ, we begin to be like Jesus, we seek to do the Will of our Father, we seek holiness because our restored natures calls us to do so…we do not become holy by doing good works…we do good works because we are holy, and we have the Holy One dwelling inside of us, restoring our broken image.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Okay, Protestor, but if someone is ““saved”” and lives a life of sin, will they enter into the kingdom of God?

 

[babylonfalling]

And Lutherans respond to His call for us to do good works. From the Augsburg Confession:

Jon

I wasn’t insinuating they didn’t.
My only point is the call to good works is ALL OVER the Bible

 

[JonNC]

I wasn’t insinuating they didn’t.
My only point is the call to good works is ALL OVER the Bible

I guess I should have put a in my post. It was my intent to agree with you from a Lutheran POV, not accuse you of anything. Sorry it came across wrong.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

Okay, Protestor, but if someone is ““saved”” and lives a life of sin, will they enter into the kingdom of God?

Friend, are you addressing me as “Protestor” in response to my post above or is your “Protestor” addressing all non-catholic Christians?

If me, mo a person living a life of sin they do not live within the Kingdom of God neither in this world nor any other. A " life of sin" really is NO indication one has become a New Creation in Christ, for those tho have “put on Christ” do not live " life of sin".

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Not at all! I addressed you as Protestor because I thought your handle really was Protestor. There is another user on this board with that name and I misread yours as his.

It is certainly true that a person living a life of sin is not an indication that they have become a new creation in Christ. But what I was seeking to clarify about your position is not about outward indications, but inward realities. You expressed earlier the idea that nothing whatsoever can merit the grace of justification (as Trent taught). But do you believe the Calvinist position that once one is justified in Christ, that he remains always justified regardless of his works whatsoever and that one who persists in sin till death or falls away from the faith was never really justified to begin with?

You said, “If… a person [is] living a life of sin they do not live within the Kingdom of God neither in this world nor any other.” If you are holding to a Calvinist position, since they believe all sins are mortal, there doesn’t seem to be a difference between sinning once and living a “sinful lifestyle.” But that aside, if one lives a life of sin (however that is defined), does that mean that they fell from justice before God or that they were never justified to begin with. Or at least is the former a possibility. Put another way, when someone is adopted as a child of God, is there any sin at all that can separate them from their inheritance?

I contend that justification can be lost.

 

[babylonfalling]

Sweet. Who knew y’all were Lutheran deep down?

We don’t subscribe to what Bonhoeffer coined “cheap grace.” If James’ words weren’t clear enough, Christ’s ought to be: every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. And this reconciles perfectly with Paul, who simply explains that no number of works we do can merit salvation - it is a gift from God.

Luther put it quite well, I think. “It is just as impossible to separate faith and works as heat and light from a flame.”

I never did a count but I bet if I did…there would be more verses from Christ about works than from James

 

[Publisher]

Not at all! I addressed you as Protestor because I thought your handle really was Protestor. There is another user on this board with that name and I misread yours as his.

It is certainly true that a person living a life of sin is not an indication that they have become a new creation in Christ. But what I was seeking to clarify about your position is not about outward indications, but inward realities. You expressed earlier the idea that nothing whatsoever can merit the grace of justification (as Trent taught). But do you believe the Calvinist position that once one is justified in Christ, that he remains always justified regardless of his works whatsoever and that one who persists in sin till death or falls away from the faith was never really justified to begin with?

You said, “If… a person [is] living a life of sin they do not live within the Kingdom of God neither in this world nor any other.” If you are holding to a Calvinist position, since they believe all sins are mortal, there doesn’t seem to be a difference between sinning once and living a “sinful lifestyle.” But that aside, if one lives a life of sin (however that is defined), does that mean that they fell from justice before God or that they were never justified to begin with. Or at least is the former a possibility. Put another way, when someone is adopted as a child of God, is there any sin at all that can separate them from their inheritance?

I contend that justification can be lost.

I am not Calvinist in my religious leanings. Friends believe what we do, how we treat others, how we respond to others needs in our “personal world” , how “gently we walk upon the earth” is far more important than what we believe .

Salvation begins now in this world, if we wish to live in the Kingdom of God fully realized, then we must begin to live NOW within the Kingdom we hope to one day see fully.

A New Creation in Christ may stumble and fall, but we confess to ou Father that we fell and we need His assistance to get back up and continue walking the Narrow Way. Sin in our lives grieve us because the Holy Spirit lives and works within us calling us always to holiness of life.

I don’t believe we are “saved” one minute and “lost” the next. He will keep what we have commuted to Him against that Day and will complete the Work Abe began in us.

At what time do we become “lost” again? I don’t know exactly, I suppose when we no longer are able to See that City we hope for. Yet I find the distinction between “mortal” and “genial” sin disturbing. Sin will eventually mar again the New Image of God we bear within us if left undealt with.

Daily…hourly examination of our lives and actions must ever be brought into the Light and a daily…hourly…minute by minute process of repentance and confession is something we must continue to strive for until our minds are renewed and our lives become reflections of His.

We rely on God’s mercy and astounding grace…especially His grace.

 

[rmcmullan]

I have heard this question recast as “Who is responsible for our salvation?” It it is God, then He picks and chooses whomsoever he pleases, regardless of our adherence to the law of the gospel. If it’s us, then we “earn our way into heaven” by our strict obedience to the law of the gospel.

Obviously, I am arguing for both.

 

[babylonfalling]

What do you make of Eph. 2:8-9?

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT by works, so that no one can boast.”

We are saved by faith. But again faith without works is dead. It begets the questions, Is a man saved with dead faith?