The Relationship between faith & good works

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babylonfalling said:
We are saved by faith. But again faith without works is dead. It begets the questions, Is a man saved with dead faith?
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St. Paul says in Galatians 5:6, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Luther comments:
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith.** Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose.** To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God.** Idle faith is not justifying faith.** In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
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Jon
 
JonNC said:
St. Paul says in Galatians 5:6, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Luther comments:

Jon
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In that verse Paul is talking about works of the law which are clearly different than good works of charity.
 
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babylonfalling said:
In that verse Paul is talking about works of the law which are clearly different than good works of charity.
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I believe “working through love” means good works, not the works of mere law and obligation.
 
steido01 said:
What do you make of Eph. 2:8-9?

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT by works, so that no one can boast.”
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Best explanation I got on this was by Bob Sungenis. It all has to do with the relational context of the works. If I work a job, I can go to my employer and say “I did that, so I earned this”. But this is not the kind of relationship we must have with God.

When coupled with James I think the message is that works CAN be justifying, but only if done in faith. Conversely, If I do no works, then my faith is not a justifying faith.
 
ajcstr said:
Best explanation I got on this was by Bob Sungenis. It all has to do with the relational context of the works. If I work a job, I can go to my employer and say “I did that, so I earned this”. But this is not the kind of relationship we must have with God.

When coupled with James I think the message is that works CAN be justifying, but only if done in faith. Conversely, If I do no works, then my faith is not a justifying faith.
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Which leaves it as a (back to the Book of James) dead faith.
 
steido01 said:
What do you make of Eph. 2:8-9?

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT by works, so that no one can boast.”
Click to expand...
Paul is focussing on works which are done outside acknowledging the grace which we are in to be able to do the works from the Spirit.

Faith and Works doctrine does not contradict His grace, but acknowledges the grace we need to do good works.

These works are a participation in the faith given to us by the Father. They are deeds we do, which without faith we would never have done, because they sprang from faith in order to be fullfilled through us.

No one who does good works from God boasts that he is something great, but gives honor to God for His salvation. And God gives honor to the person who works righteousness.
 
Just some food for thought…

Matthew 35-40 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.

Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary

Ver. 35. For I was hungry, &c. We may take notice, that the wicked at the day of judgment, are said to be condemned for having omitted to perform good works. (Witham) — St. Augustine, in his 33d sermon, brings a beautiful reason why the kingdom of heaven is bestowed solely upon the works of mercy, and eternal damnation for the neglect of them; viz. because, however just a man may be, still he has many failings to atone for, on account of which the kingdom of heaven might be justly denied him: but because he has shewn mercy to his neighbours, he deserves in like manner to have mercy shewn him. But the wicked, not having shewn mercy to their neighbours, nor redeemed their sins by alms-deeds, or the like, are thus delivered up to eternal damnation. (Jansenius, concord.) — Jesus Christ only mentions one species of good works, though others may be equally meritorious; for the means of salvation are not precisely the same for all the saints; some are saved by poverty, others by solitude, and each by that virtue which he shall have practised in the greatest degree of perfection.

Ver. 36. And you visited me. How easy are the things our Saviour requires at our hands! He will not say at the day of judgment: “I was in prison, and you delivered me; I was sick, and you healed me; but only this, you visited me, you came to me.” (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — This seems particularly addressed to Christians engaged in the cares of the world, whose salvation principally depends on the practice of works of mercy.

Seems to me that works are a part of what Christ wanted and required of us for our salvation.
 
steido01 said:
What do you make of Eph. 2:8-9?

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— NOT by works, so that no one can boast.”
Click to expand...
Don’t stop at verse 9 :nope:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

:yup:
 
I´ve always preceived the catholic stance as more compassionate towards human nature. Even if we have faith, we are inclined to work wrongly. So there`s a struggle that goes beyond faith in human beings, and aknowledging this gives a better understanding of our flaws and a greater dimension of our achievements.
 
QNDNNDQDCE said:
Ephesians 2 does not teach “sola fide.” Paul is saying that works do not merit the initial grace of justification. He does not say that works have no bearing on salvation or that we will not be judged according to our works. To the contrary, Paul teaches that works do merit salvation subsequently.

What is granted in accordance with a fair judgment, would seem a condign reward. But life everlasting is granted by God, in accordance with the judgment of justice, according to 2 Timothy 4:8: “As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord, the just judge, will render to me in that day.” Therefore man merits everlasting life condignly.
newadvent.org/summa/2114.htm#article3

And Paul speaks of the judgment in Romans.

But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:5-11)

And Paul says that those who commit mortal sins will be damned.

I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences. (Galatians 5:16-24)

Furthermore, saying that salvation is by faith, not works is nonsensical because properly speaking faith is a work. Christ says to the Jews, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

It is not true that bad works means there was no faith to begin with. It is possible to have faith and be damned because we do not follow through on it, for which reason Paul says, If I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing (1 Cor. 13:2).

So it is baffling that Dr. Luther could say in opposition to Scripture that “although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it” (Smalcald Articles iii.13) when it is evident that God will judge and punish or reward everyone on the basis of their works.
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solar fide isn’t taught anywhere in the Bible
 
babylonfalling said:
I think there is a lot of mix up with works of the law works of love.
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Hi babylonfalling: You maybe correct but it seems to me that doing good works out of love is one thing and doing works because one has to is another.
 
babylonfalling said:
In that verse Paul is talking about works of the law which are clearly different than good works of charity.
Click to expand...
But he says faith working through love (charity). He isn’t talking about mosaic law here. He’s definitely talking about charity.
Later in chapter 5, he makes clear the distinction:
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

The entire law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor. Charity.

Jon
 
wmscott said:
Just some food for thought…

Matthew 35-40 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.

Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary

Ver. 35. For I was hungry, &c. We may take notice, that the wicked at the day of judgment, are said to be condemned for having omitted to perform good works. (Witham) — St. Augustine, in his 33d sermon, brings a beautiful reason why the kingdom of heaven is bestowed solely upon the works of mercy, and eternal damnation for the neglect of them; viz. because, however just a man may be, still he has many failings to atone for, on account of which the kingdom of heaven might be justly denied him: but because he has shewn mercy to his neighbours, he deserves in like manner to have mercy shewn him. But the wicked, not having shewn mercy to their neighbours, nor redeemed their sins by alms-deeds, or the like, are thus delivered up to eternal damnation. (Jansenius, concord.) — Jesus Christ only mentions one species of good works, though others may be equally meritorious; for the means of salvation are not precisely the same for all the saints; some are saved by poverty, others by solitude, and each by that virtue which he shall have practised in the greatest degree of perfection.

Ver. 36. And you visited me. How easy are the things our Saviour requires at our hands! He will not say at the day of judgment: “I was in prison, and you delivered me; I was sick, and you healed me; but only this, you visited me, you came to me.” (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — This seems particularly addressed to Christians engaged in the cares of the world, whose salvation principally depends on the practice of works of mercy.

Seems to me that works are a part of what Christ wanted and required of us for our salvation.
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Works are what gives actual life to a persons faith, making it active. It’s God’s energy changing the fallen world.
 
spina1953 said:
Hi babylonfalling: You maybe correct but it seems to me that doing good works out of love is one thing and doing works because one has to is another.
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It is but even doing them because you have to is still a good thing. After all, a selfish person who is still doing good works because he knows it’s God’s will acting out of faith. That’s better than doing nothing at all.
 
babylonfalling said:
It is but even doing them because you have to is still a good thing. After all, a selfish person who is still doing good works because he knows it’s God’s will acting out of faith. That’s better than doing nothing at all.
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Hi babylonfalling: I will agree with y because of course you are correct in your statement. That being said, If one is forced to do good works or because the law says one has to, while good does come from it, doing good works because one does it out of love for God and his fellow man without looking for recognition, praise, or gain, ends up gaining more because one is filled all the more with God’s love, and graces.
 
Originally Posted by** babylonfalling **
It is but even doing them because you have to is still a good thing. After all, a selfish person who is still doing good works because he knows it’s God’s will acting out of faith. That’s better than doing nothing at all.
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spina1953 said:
Hi babylonfalling: I will agree with y because of course you are correct in your statement. That being said, If one is forced to do good works or because the law says one has to, while good does come from it, doing good works because one does it out of love for God and his fellow man without looking for recognition, praise, or gain, ends up gaining more because one is filled all the more with God’s love, and graces.
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Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will earn you a path to Heaven?

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will earn you a path to Heaven?

Jon
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The way I look at it, faith and works are like an engine and a vehicle. A vehicle without an engine isn’t going anywhere and engine without a vehicle is pointless. To answer your question, one would be sitting in a car going nowhere.
 
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