The Relationship between faith & good works

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JonNC said:
Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will earn you a path to Heaven?

Jon
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Jesus just may say, “I do not know you.”

These works arent done out of love… 😦

That means not good, and not from Our Father.
 
rcwitness said:
Jesus just may say, “I do not know you.”

These works arent done out of love… 😦

That means not good, and not from Our Father.
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I agree, and go back to Luther’s commentary on Galatians:
A true faith: ** “Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.”**

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I agree, and go back to Luther’s commentary on Galatians:
A true faith: ** “Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.”**

Jon
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Good Word, when credit is due.

The key word which flags red is ‘earn’
 
JonNC said:
Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will **earn **you a path to Heaven?

Jon
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Howdy John! Hope your knees are doing better. Long time no read 😃

Motive would define itself by the word in bold above.

Earn?
No.

Salvation is a free gift, but it’s not cheap - actually it costs our life.

It’s not an earning, it’s a surrendering.

Peace bro’
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Howdy John! Hope your knees are doing better. Long time no read 😃

Motive would define itself by the word in bold above.

Earn?
No.

Salvation is a free gift, but it’s not cheap - actually it costs our life.

It’s not an earning, it’s a surrendering.

Peace bro’
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Hi Jose,
The knees are doing better and better. Its been a year now. Hard to believe. Thanks for asking.

I agree. ISTM that, far too often, there is more misunderstanding and, yes, misrepresentation that goes back and forth on this issue.
At least from a Lutheran POV, the importance of good works is clear in the confessions. OTOH, it is clear to me that Catholics, despite the accusations of even some Lutheran writers (I haven’t seen it among posters here), do not practice works righteousness.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
But he says faith working through love (charity). He isn’t talking about mosaic law here. He’s definitely talking about charity.
Later in chapter 5, he makes clear the distinction:
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

The entire law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor. Charity.

Jon
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I know he’s not talking about Mosaic law…that’s the point
 
babylonfalling said:
I know he’s not talking about Mosaic law…that’s the point
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are you then agreeing with me? The Apostle makes clear, and Luther responds to that clarity, that a true faith, a saving faith, is a faith that works through love. the Lutheran understanding of that is faith justifies, and works are the necessary result (not necessary in terms of responding out of fear, but responding out of joyful thanks and love.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
are you then agreeing with me? The Apostle makes clear, and Luther responds to that clarity, that a true faith, a saving faith, is a faith that works through love. the Lutheran understanding of that is faith justifies, and works are the necessary result (not necessary in terms of responding out of fear, but responding out of joyful thanks and love.

Jon
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You are attempting to deny that good works done in faith are a participation in our salvation. Im not sure why?

Paul also says,“Work out your salvation.”

We can pit Pauls words against each other. The thing is, is that he was not the only Apostle, nor are we stuck with only his letters. We also have the wisdom and divine revelation from James.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
babylonfalling said:
And if there are no works to evidence the faith?
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Then where’s the salvation? Faith without works is dead.

The Bible gives us four primary criteria (and, no, before you try, I’m not going to argue with you about this) to determine whether or not we are saved:
  1. Our testimony
  2. Our doctrine
  3. Our fruit
  4. Our sanctification
If the Bible says we are saved unto good works and there are no good works to evidence salvation, then how can we say we’ve produced good fruit?
 
rcwitness said:
You are attempting to deny that good works done in faith are a participation in our salvation. Im not sure why?

Paul also says,“Work out your salvation.”

We can pit Pauls words against each other. The thing is, is that he was not the only Apostle, nor are we stuck with only his letters. We also have the wisdom and divine revelation from James.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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You’re correct but Paul himself believed in good works, and that we would be judged by our actions.
 
JonNC said:
Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will earn you a path to Heaven?

Jon
Click to expand...
Hi JonNC: For me personally, I do not think doing good works will get me into heaven. it is not about getting into heaven by doing good works. One does good works because first of all God prompts one to do so, secondly, one does good works because it is done out of love for God and one’s fellow man… It is what the Ten Commandments say as well as what Jesus said to love God and to love one’s follow man as oneself. Only God decides who will get into heaven and who does not and lastly, there is nothing one can do in good works that would ever earn or merit heaven since it is a free gift from God. For me I am just the instrument that God does His good works through me so that others might give glory to God the Father in heaven and not to me. As Jesus said what servant receives credit for doing what the Master bids?
 
South_Bound said:
Then where’s the salvation? Faith without works is dead.

The Bible gives us four primary criteria (and, no, before you try, I’m not going to argue with you about this) to determine whether or not we are saved:
  1. Our testimony
  2. Our doctrine
  3. Our fruit
  4. Our sanctification
If the Bible says we are saved unto good works and there are no good works to evidence salvation, then how can we say we’ve produced good fruit?
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Before I try what?
 
babylonfalling said:
You’re correct but Paul himself believed in good works, and that we would be judged by our actions.
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Yes, I wasnt implying Paul contradicts himself, but that many Christian disputes come from pitting Paul’s Teachings against the Church’s. Paul did not Teach that works do not justify us before Christ, but that the grace of Jesus justified all mankind to God, which faith is the foremost means to see and therefore believe, while works are faith manifested in us.
 
rcwitness said:
Yes, I wasnt implying Paul contradicts himself, but that many Christian disputes come from pitting Paul’s Teachings against the Church’s. Paul did not Teach that works do not justify us before Christ, but that the grace of Jesus justified all mankind to God, which faith is the foremost means to see and therefore believe, while works are faith manifested in us.
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I like to think of works as God’s Kingdom being manifested into the fallen realm through us. There IS more to works than that however.
 
JonNC said:
Hey guys,
What if you are doing good works because you think it will earn you a path to Heaven?

Jon
Click to expand...
Then you’re confused, but if it’s an innocent type of confusion based on simple ignorance, then you’re also NOT rejecting faith or belief in God. In fact, if you’re goal is heaven, they you believe in God.
 
rcwitness said:
You are attempting to deny that good works done in faith are a participation in our salvation. Im not sure why?

Paul also says,“Work out your salvation.”

We can pit Pauls words against each other. The thing is, is that he was not the only Apostle, nor are we stuck with only his letters. We also have the wisdom and divine revelation from James.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Click to expand...
Your point is well made, and clearly good works are very much part of salvation. However, there is a world of difference between working “out” and working “on”.

The good works that perfect our faith (justifying us before God) are only those that emanate from faith. They “work out” of the saving grace that is infused into our souls at baptism.
 
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