The Reliability of the Koran

[bpbasilphx]

When we are all raised up and held to account then we will see how reliable was the Qur’an.

**And at that point, all Mahometans will learn they hearkened to a lie.

God bless the Crusaders!

I confess there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead! **

 

[inJESUS]

I am not going to pretend that I can tell you WHY God did this, that, or something else. Allah is not the one who is questioned, WE are questioned.



If it were abrogated, not only why would Allah “remove” it from his book yet keep other abrogated verses there, but why didn’t Umar say it was abrogated and why was stoning still practiced from that time till now?

Actually, as I’ve mentioned before, Christians agree that God did abrogate what He revealed, sometimes leaving it in the Book, and sometimes not. Namely, according to Christianity, He abrogated the Law/Torah with the Gospel.

 

[hamba2han]

… Egypt had very meticulous historians who kept records of the names of every Pharoah from about 2000 BC right down to the last Cleopatra not long before Christ was born. It was common knowledge in Egypt and throughout the rest of the Christian world that “Pharoah” was merely a generic name…

You may have either missed the point or perhaps misunderstood the real significance of this accurate usage of the word ‘Pharaoh’ in the Qur’an.

You see, it is not the case of ‘Pharoah’ being a generic name that is the issue here but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as ‘Pharaoh’ in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

This is historically inaccurate because the king of Egypt during Joseph’s time was NOT called ‘Pharaoh’ and this FACT was not discovered until only recently by scholars and researchers in such scientific fields as archaeology and Egyptology.

This clear error is not found in the Qur’an whereas the Old Testament and other Jewish scriptures do indeed make this mistake.

The following are excerpts from various articles in Wikipedia:

1. Pharaoh was a name for the office of kingship in the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
2. The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
3. Archaeological excavations of the remains of the Abydos mortuary temple of king Ahmose I in the 1990’s have uncovered thousands of fragmentary reliefs depicting this pharaoh’s battles against the Hyksos as well as the earliest known depiction of chariots in Egyptian warfare. This discovery affirms the general view that it was the Hyksos who first brought the chariot into Egypt and permits Joseph to have enjoyed a high position in office during the 15th Hyksos Dynasty as opposed to the later native Egyptian 18th Dynasty… The price of 20 Derham which was paid for Joseph’s slavery in Mesopotamia also affirms a relative date for Joseph in the 18th or 17th Century BC.

Therefore, there is just absolutely no way that anyone living during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) could have known about this particular inaccuracy in the Bible.

It is therefore reasonable to believe that at the time the Qur’an was revealed, it was only God Himself who would have known about this small but yet hugely significant detail regarding this inaccurate use of the word ‘Pharaoh’ when referring to the King of Egypt during the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

 

[Sam_777]

You see, it is not the case of ‘Pharoah’ being a generic name that is the issue here but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as ‘Pharaoh’ in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

So what, Pharaoh name was even known in the time of Abram (Genesis 12:15), and Genesis is part of the Jews Torah, which was revered way back by God the Most High, so if you have a problem with that name maybe you should address it to our fellow Jews (open a new thread), and they might tell you what actually was written in Hebrew (the original language).

 

[ralphinal]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded

Some evidence that it may have been earlier. The archeologist says it would be like looking for World War II evidence in the newspapers of the 1990s.

I agree with Sam about the Pharoah thing. I wonder what the exact word used in the Hebrew was and what it means. I would bet it means ruler or king and that English translators changed it to something that we associate with Egypt.

This also brings up another question. How could Allah get something so abstract correct and miss something so much more common, like the nature of the Trinity or Jesus’s death on the cross?

 

[Angelos]

You may have either missed the point or perhaps misunderstood the real significance of this accurate usage of the word ‘Pharaoh’ in the Qur’an.

You see, it is not the case of ‘Pharoah’ being a generic name that is the issue here but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as ‘Pharaoh’ in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

This is historically inaccurate because the king of Egypt during Joseph’s time was NOT called ‘Pharaoh’ and this FACT was not discovered until only recently by scholars and researchers in such scientific fields as archaeology and Egyptology.

This clear error is not found in the Qur’an whereas the Old Testament and other Jewish scriptures do indeed make this mistake.

The following are excerpts from various articles in Wikipedia:

1. Pharaoh was a name for the office of kingship in the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
2. The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
3. Archaeological excavations of the remains of the Abydos mortuary temple of king Ahmose I in the 1990’s have uncovered thousands of fragmentary reliefs depicting this pharaoh’s battles against the Hyksos as well as the earliest known depiction of chariots in Egyptian warfare. This discovery affirms the general view that it was the Hyksos who first brought the chariot into Egypt and permits Joseph to have enjoyed a high position in office during the 15th Hyksos Dynasty as opposed to the later native Egyptian 18th Dynasty… The price of 20 Derham which was paid for Joseph’s slavery in Mesopotamia also affirms a relative date for Joseph in the 18th or 17th Century BC.

Therefore, there is just absolutely no way that anyone living during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) could have known about this particular inaccuracy in the Bible.

It is therefore reasonable to believe that at the time the Qur’an was revealed, it was only God Himself who would have known about this small but yet hugely significant detail regarding this inaccurate use of the word ‘Pharaoh’ when referring to the King of Egypt during the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

Where is it written in the Koran that Moses was born AFTER Egyptian Kings started to use the name Pharaoh for themselves? Please prove that the Koran talks of the 18th dynasty with regard to Moses’ period or at least that it is aware of that distinction. If you can do neither of these, please prove that the Koran does not consider the word “Pharaoh” a personal name.

 

[Sister_Amy]

 

[inJESUS]

no explanation as to why in light of abrogating verses with opposite teachings yet still there? the verse was recited as Quran after all.

Let’s not get in to a battle of semantics. The concept exists. Christians are not obligated to follow all the Laws of Moses, because of Jesus. They follow different laws. This is abrogation–you don’t call it such, but the concept is identical.

nop that is not semantics Amy. That is about 2 covenants, with a long time difference, initiated by 2 different people and targetting different people…not abrogation of verses by the same person within 20 years.

 

[inJESUS]

'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.

How do you explain all this Amy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Explain what?

 

[Postmodern]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded

Some evidence that it may have been earlier. The archeologist says it would be like looking for World War II evidence in the newspapers of the 1990s.

I agree with Sam about the Pharoah thing. I wonder what the exact word used in the Hebrew was and what it means. I would bet it means ruler or king and that English translators changed it to something that we associate with Egypt.

This also brings up another question. How could Allah get something so abstract correct and miss something so much more common, like the nature of the Trinity or Jesus’s death on the cross?

I’d say that in most Koranic exhortations on Biblical events it is taken as a hypothetical appeal to Medina’s Jewish population. And not stated as actually claiming the event took place. At least that is what I gather from the language and the commentary.

If the Koran is only making a hypothetical appeal that is fine. And if Christians only take the Old Testament stories as the Jews attempt to recount their history and metaphorical that is fine.

However if either texts claim they event took place, there is strong evidence to challenge this.

biblearchaeology.org/post/2006/09/debunking-the-exodus-decoded.aspx

 

[inJESUS]

Explain what?

'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses

the above

and below:

and in it there was the verse of stoning

 

[inJESUS]

Explain what?

'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning

first, the lengh of Ahzab chapter

and the fact that the stoning verse was recited as Quran.

 

[Sister_Amy]

'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning

first, the lengh of Ahzab chapter

and the fact that the stoning verse was recited as Quran.

Why do you need me to explain anything? You haven’t even told me who “me” is in the quote which means I’m going to have to go look it up on some fatwa site about adultery to find out who narrated this and WHEN, and read about the removal of the verse about stoning and this confused length about Surat al-Ahzab.

And… aren’t you capable of doing all that yourself?

Here’s something to think about. Maybe the verse was revealed to give the law, but removed (albeit not abrogated) as a mercy for the people. Wallahu alam.

 

[inJESUS]

Why do you need me to explain anything? You haven’t even told me who “me” is in the quote which means I’m going to have to go look it up on some fatwa site about adultery to find out who narrated this and WHEN, and read about the removal of the verse about stoning and this confused length about Surat al-Ahzab.

And… aren’t you capable of doing all that yourself?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Mahomet (who was a pedophile) was deceived by an inferior demon claming to be the Archangel Gabriel.

Correction, the spirit never identified itself. Mohameds wifes Nestorian Christian uncle did saying it was the same spirit that spoke to Moses.
Personally I think it was the same spirit that tempted Christ in the desert 600 years before that threw Mohammed around in the cave at Hira. After that I am not sure he had more visitations but I think so as Satan is too often quoted in the Quran.

 

[inJESUS]

Why do you need me to explain anything? You haven’t even told me who “me” is in the quote which means I’m going to have to go look it up on some fatwa site about adultery to find out who narrated this and WHEN, and read about the removal of the verse about stoning and this confused length about Surat al-Ahzab. .

In Sahih al Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210, we read this sermon delivered by Hadhrath Umar during his last Hajj as Khalifa:

“Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it”.
"The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, someone may say, ‘By God, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God;’ thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed."

"Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted."

Al-Muttaqi 'Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book “Mukhtasar Kanz al-'Ummal” printed on the margin of Imam Ahmad’s Musnad, Volume 2, page 2, in his hadith about chapter 33, said that Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said:

'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’** He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.**

Suyuti narrates from Hadhrath Ayesha:

“During the life of the Prophet (s), Surah Ahzab was read with 200 verses, when Uthman collected the verses we only found that amount that is found in the current Qur’an”.

Tafseer Durre Manthur Volume 5 page 180, al Itqan Volume 2 page 25

Aal Hafidh Jalaladeen as Suyuti writes:
**
“Hadhrath Umar said at the Saqifa that the Qur’an has 1,027,000 letters”**
Tafseer al Itqan" by as Suyuti, page 88

The present Qur’an has 267,033 letters.

In Sahih Muslim Volume 7 (commentary of al-Nawawi) in the Book of al-Zakah, about the virtue of being satisfied with whatever God gives and about urging people to have that virtue, pages 139-140, reported that Abu al-Aswad reported that his father said:

“Abu Musa al-Ash’ari invited the Qur’an readers of Basra. Three hundred readers responded to his invitation. He told them: You are the readers and the choice of the people of Basra. Recite the Qur’an and do not neglect it. Otherwise, a long time may elapse and your hearts will be hardened as the hearts of those who came before you were hardened.”

"We used to read a chapter from the Qur’an similar to Bara’ah in length and seriousness, but I forgot it. I can remember from that chapter only the following words:

'Should a son of Adam own two valleys full of wealth, he would seek a third valley, and nothing would fill Ibn Adam’s abdomen but the soil.

"'We used to read a chapter similar to Musabbihat and I forgot it. I only remember out of it the following:

“'Oh you who believe, why do you say what you do not do? Thus a testimony will be written on your necks and you will be questioned about it on the Day of Judgment.”

It is obvious that these words which Abu Musa mentioned are not from the Quran. Abu Musa says that two surah’s from the Quran are missing, one of them similar to Bara’ah (the chapter of Bara’ah contains 130 verses).

Muslim reported in the Book of al-Rida’ah (Book of Nursing), part 10, page 29, that 'Ayesha said the following:

“There was in what was revealed in the Qur’an that ten times of nursing known with certainty makes the nursing woman a mother of a nursed child. This number of nursing would make the woman ‘haram’ (forbidden) to the child. Then this verse was replaced by ‘five known nursing’ to make the woman forbidden to the child. The Prophet died while these words were recorded and read in the Qur’an.”

We read Sahih al Bukhari Volume 5 hadith number 86:

Alqama went to Sham and when he entered the mosque, he said, “O Allah! Bless me with a pious companion.” So he sat with Abu Ad-Darda. Abu Ad-Darda’ asked him, “Where are you from?” 'Alqama replied, “From the people of Kufa.” Abu Ad-Darda said, “Isn’t there amongst you the keeper of the secret which nobody else knows, i.e., Hudhaifa?” Alqama said, “Yes.” Then Abu Ad-Darda further said, “Isn’t there amongst you the person whom Allah gave refuge from Satan through the invocation of His Prophet, namely Ammar?” Alqama replied in the affirmative. Abu Ad-Darda said, “Isn’t there amongst you the person who carries the Siwak (or the Secret) (i.e. of the Prophet, namely Abdullah bin Masud)?” Alqama said, “Yes.” Then Abu Ad-Darda asked, "How (Abdullah bin Masud) used to recite the Surah starting with: ‘By the night as it envelops; By the day as it appears in brightness?’ " (92.1-2). Alqama said “And by male and female.” Abu Ad-Darda then said, “These people (of Sham) tried hard to make me accept something other than what I had heard from the Prophet.”

We read in Mustadrak:

Abdullah bin Abbas would read the following verse in Surah Nisa “Fa ma asthathamthathu ba manaan ku” with these words 'la ajal masmee". When he was asked about this he said 'Allah (swt) revealed this verse in this way.

Allamah Dhahabi in his commentary of Mustadrak, confirms that the chain of narrators in this tradition is Sahih. (Mustadrak ma Talkhees Volume 2 page 305).

After all the chain is Sahih and Ibn Abbas is stating that words are missing from the Qur’an.

Here, i gave you the references Amy.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Al-Muttaqi 'Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book “Mukhtasar Kanz al-'Ummal” printed on the margin of Imam Ahmad’s Musnad, Volume 2, page 2, in his hadith about chapter 33, said that Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said:

Heh. That’s pretty funny.

Most of that post seemed unrelated to the discussion at hand.

 

[inJESUS]

Heh. That’s pretty funny.

Most of that post seemed unrelated to the discussion at hand.

what is funny about what i quote? and how is it unrelated to the topic of reliability of the Quran? didn’t you ask about stoning verse and al-Ahzab chapter? i quoted them in addition to other info from Islamic sources.

 

[inJESUS]

Muslim in the 7th part of his Sahih, in the book of Al
Zakat reported that Abu al-Aswad reported that his father said :

 Abu Musa al-Ashari invited the Quran readers of Basra. Three
 hundred  readers responded to his invitation. He told
 them

 You are the readers and the choice of the People of
 Basra. Recite the Quran and don't neglect it. Other
 wise a long time may elapse and your hearts will ne
 hardened as the hearts of those who came before you
 were hardened.

 We used to read a Chapter from the Quran similar to

 Bara'ah in length and seriousness, but I forgot it.

 I can remember from the Chapter only the following
 words :

 Should a son of Adam own two valleys full of wealth, he should

 seek a third valley and nothing would fill Ibn Adam's abdomen

 but the soil.


 We also used to read a chapter similiar to the Musabbihat and i forgot it. I only remember out of it the following:

 "Oh you who believe, why do you say what you do not do? (which is
 now in another place in Quran 61:2) Thus a testimony shall be
 written on your necks and you will be questioned about it on the
 day of judgment." (which is a little different than what is in
 another place in Quran 17:13)

It is obvious that the above underlined words which Abu Musa mentioned are not from the Quran. Abu Musa claims that two ( 2 ) chapters from the Quran are missing one of them is similar to Bara’ah in length.

If we take the report of Ibn Mardawayh which Huthaifah attributed to Umar in which he said that the Chapter of al-Ahzab, which contained 72 verses, was as long as the Chapter of the Cow ( containing 287 ) and take the report of Abu Musa which says that a chapter equal in length to the Chapter of Bara’ah ( contains 130 ) was deleted from the Quran, then the deletion in the Quran according to these reports would be 345 verses.

Sahih al-Bukhari see 8.817:

  When Umar performed his last Hajj, he said:

  Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed
  him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him
  was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it.

  The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am
  concerned that if time goes on, some one may say ' By God
  we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God ';
  thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment
  the Almighty revealed.

  **Again, we used to read in what we found in the Book of God :

Do not deny the fatherhood of your fathers in contempt because it is a disbelief on your part to be ashamed of your fathers.**

the above verse which was recited by Umar in the above tradition is not in present Quran.

Abdullah Ibn Masud is one of famous narrators.

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.521:


Narrated Masriq:

'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, 'Take (learn) the Quran from four: **'Abdullah bin Masud**, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin
Ka'b.' "

Muhammad clearly indicated that
Abdullah Ibn Masud is one of whom should be trusted on the matter of Quran.

Ibn Masud had a different Quran with a different sequence of chapters and different set of aayaat and he narrated that one aaya inside the present Quran has an extra word
“Him Who created” and he told this to people in different area.One of these differences are the last two chapters of Quran. He believed that these two chapters are **not **Quranic chapters and they are only some prayers .

 Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.501:

Narrated Zirr bin Hubaish:

I asked Ubai bin Ka’b, "O Abu AlMundhir! Your brother, Ibn Mas’ud said
so-and-so (i.e., the two Mu’awwidh-at do not belong to the Quran)."
Ubai said, "I asked Allah’s Apostle about them, and he said, 'They
have been revealed to me, and I have recited them (as a part of the Quran)