The Remaking of Hillary Clinton

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Lisa N:
Certainly no one knows what is in another’s heart but by their fruits you will know them. IOW look at the ACTIONS of each. Which indicates that they support the kind of culture of life that we hold dear in the Catholic church? Hillary has had consistent proabort, pro liberal, pro secular positions. She devalues the family and is basically socialist in her philosophy. None of that sounds like a sincere religious faith.

Certainly Bush has speechwriters, however his positions are consistent and as I said even his enemies admit to the sincerity of his faith. He does not have coaches telling him how to appeal to the secular leftists but obviousl Mrs. Clinton wants to try to bamboozle people of faith. Even Mrs Clinton’s FRIENDS would not presume to suggest that her personal or political positions are Christian in focus. She could have Billy Graham on a remote feed and still not sound sincere.

Lisa N
I don’t limit my analysis to position on abortion when I look at candidates for political offices. I know that this litmus test approach is popular with many people on these message boards.

I also look at a politician’s views on how to deal with poverty, unemployement, the economy, education, healthcare, the environment, the “safety net”, and then I make my conclusions. George Bush gets an F- from me on most of these social issues; same for the Republican party as a whole. But this is a topic for an entire other thread.

On your second comment…I’m not in meetings with Bush and his advisors, and I’m guessing that you probably aren’t either. Neither of us knows what Bush gets counsel on, or how it is that his religious views became such an important part of his message. All I can tell you is that the message that is delivered by any candidate for office is carefully crafted. If you think that any politician at that level isn’t being coached and scripted and strategically positioned by handlers, then you are being naive.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
But if two individuals want to get married by a judge, how can you oppose it, without bringing religion into the picture? What reasons can you provide, without drawing on religious-based arguments, and in the context of a free country that doesn’t discriminate on the basis of gender, that two individuals can’t get married in a civil ceremony?
At least one person doesn’t believe he has to use “religion”.

The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage
 
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Pete2:
I

On your second comment…I’m not in meetings with Bush and his advisors, and I’m guessing that you probably aren’t either. Neither of us knows what Bush gets counsel on, or how it is that his religious views became such an important part of his message. All I can tell you is that the message that is delivered by any candidate for office is carefully crafted. If you think that any politician at that level isn’t being coached and scripted and strategically positioned by handlers, then you are being naive.

Pete
I am not naive but I am living in the real world and want more than just a talking head. Regardless of what the politician says, I judge him/her by what they DO.

Hillary is a socialist. She wants the government to run our lives. She doesn’t even think a family is competent to raise kids — remember her “It takes a village” book? She wanted the government to run our health care system. Heaven knows it’s such a howling success in Canada. Hillary is consistently prosecular, proabort, proleftist in her ACTIONS. I don’t give a rat’s patoot what’s in her heart or what comes out of her mouth, but the evidence by her ACTIONS is that she does not make her decisions from a Christian perspective. In contrast President Bush’s ACTIONS indicate a Christian and prolife perspective. Maybe he’s a closet atheist. Who cares. That’s between him and God and while I believe he is a sincere man of faith in reality what I really care about is how it translates into action.

Lisa N
 
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Pete2:
But if two individuals want to get married by a judge, how can you oppose it, without bringing religion into the picture? What reasons can you provide, without drawing on religious-based arguments, and in the context of a free country that doesn’t discriminate on the basis of gender, that two individuals can’t get married in a civil ceremony?

Pete
How about the same logic the supreme Court used in their rulings on the Ten Commandments? The legitimacy of their existence based on pertinent history. Apparently, the displays outdoors were done by an organization that commemorated the Ten Commandments as being a founding part of the history of the areas in question. That made them legit (according to the SC). The indoor displays apparently had no historical roots and were just for display. Ergo, SC said take 'em down. Not that I necessarily agree with their logic, but what could be more historical than marriage between a man and a woman? Let alone the obvious biology. :rolleyes:
 
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Pete2:
But if two individuals want to get married by a judge, how can you oppose it, without bringing religion into the picture? What reasons can you provide, without drawing on religious-based arguments, and in the context of a free country that doesn’t discriminate on the basis of gender, that two individuals can’t get married in a civil ceremony?
Discriminate based on gender? Gender does not equal behavior.

I think you mean discrimination based on behavior. This we do all the time and for good reason. Here’s some secular (non-religious) reasons for discriminating against normalizing homsexual behavior:
  • very high concentration of disease
  • very high concentration of life-threatening disease
  • high rates of suicide
  • dramatically lower life spans
  • high rates of drug usage
  • inability to produce children
  • incompatible body parts
  • tradition of marriage historically has been the same forever and shows a very strong correlation to stability in families and society
  • historical tradition shows societies that accepted homosexuality as normal sufferred a great deal
 
Thanks for that link, enjoyed the article. Not a bad argument, but I found the central assumption weak, and it didn’t change my mind. Found this on the internet:

Bowling for Gay Marriage

I have found, in recent weeks, that the national debate on gay marriage has taken the form of a very poor bowler. Most attempts at rational argument end up in one of two gutters, and the results have no real impact. On one side, arguments about marriage from a religious point of view are over before they begin (and beside the point in the public arena), and on the other hand, endless speculation about the political ramifications of one position over another trivializes what is, for many people, a very personal and important issue.

So it was with great anticipation that I read Adam Kolasinski’s Feb17 column (“The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage”). However, the resulting impact left too many pins standing for me to be satisfied. His conclusions do not follow from his arguments, and his arguments are based on questionable assumptions. If this is the secular case against gay marriage, I enter a motion for summary judgment.

A questionable assumption submarines Mr. Kolasinski’s argument in the very first paragraph. His second sentence states that “state recognition of marriage is not a universal right.” Assuming he meant “legal right” instead of “universal right” (even free speech isn’t a “universal right”), this statement is patently untrue. Marriage is an explicitly stated right of United States citizens. In Loving v. Virginia [388 U.S. 1 (1967)], the United States Supreme court said: “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men. Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival …” This oversight changes the entire course of the discussion; the “burden of proof” is now on gay marriage opponents, and not “gay advocates,” as is suggested in the fourth paragraph.

But even if we grant Mr. Kolasinski his premise, his argument that gay marriage does not meet this burden is specious. Most of his column focuses on the idea that the state issues marriage licenses, “Because … propagation of society is a compelling state interest.” This assertion is presented as a well-known fact without any hint of background or attribution. It simply isn’t true.

There is no official, public “reason” for marriage licenses. Antagonists have suggested that marriage “licenses” originated as a mechanism to allow states to to prevent interracial marriages. Others point to the fact that some states have marriage records that extend back to the late seventeenth century, suggesting that it all started as a bookkeeping venture. The Massachusetts SJC decision addresses this very question, and they create a laundry list of reasons for marriage licenses. They begin by suggesting that civil marriages “enhance the ‘welfare of the community’,” and then list reasons like bookkeeping, property distribution, and the welfare of children. In six pages of reasons, they do not once mention “the perpetuation of society” or anything like it.

The Massachusetts Department of Public Health (sort of the “defendant” in this case) does later suggest that “providing a favorable setting for procreation” could be a valid legislative rationale behind a ban on same-sex marriage (this may have been the origination of Mr. Kolasinski’s argument). However, a rationale for new legislation is a far cry from a reason behind an existing system. And the distinction is important because Mr. Kolasinski’s argument suggests that the marriage licensing system is some sort of intentional, well-functioning piece of social engineering that gay marriage would disrupt. This assertion, properly made, would require a great deal more historical evidence (or, really, any historical evidence at all).

And the proof is in the pudding: civil marriage is completely orthogonal to procreation. Mr. Kolasinski attempts to make it not so by sweeping aside the large number of childless marriages by declaring them too expensive to discover (sterile couples), too few to be bothered with (elderly couples), or too impossible to ascertain (couples who choose not to have children). He then blusters through a half-baked pseudo-scientific recounting of “empirical evidence” about children who grow up with gay parents, and finishes with a demonstration the circular nature of the procreative argument (good marriages focus on procreation because marriages that focus on other things are bad).

-snip-
bryanadamsblog.com/archives/2004/02/thrashing_some.html

(there are two more paragraphs, but my post is too long… at the end, he concedes gay marriage is a slippery slope to other unions, so argues that marriage licenses should be abolished altogether?)
 
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HagiaSophia:
Talk about truth in packaging…

2008 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is reportedly consulting with a prominent evangelical minister who’s coaching her on how to communicate with Christian fundamentalists, a top clergyman said this week.

“She has engaged the former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Assemblies of God minister Dr. Don Argue,” Rev. Rob Schenck said Thursday.

Schenck is president of the National Clergy Council.

Appearing on Bill Bennett’s “Morning in America” radio show, Rev. Schenck told fill-in host Steve Malzberg that Rev. Dr. Argue had visited with the Clintons “numerous times in the White House” and is now helping Mrs. Clinton “learn the language of evangelicalism.”

newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/6/30/221503.shtml
Any “Evangelical” that would help Hillary is the right kind of Christian for the job. 👍
 
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Pete2:
Thanks for that link, enjoyed the article. Not a bad argument, but I found the central assumption weak, and it didn’t change my mind. Found this on the internet:

Bowling for Gay Marriage

I have found, in recent weeks, that the national debate on gay marriage has taken the form of a very poor bowler. Most attempts at rational argument end up in one of two gutters, and the results have no real impact. On one side, arguments about marriage from a religious point of view are over before they begin (and beside the point in the public arena), and on the other hand, endless speculation about the political ramifications of one position over another trivializes what is, for many people, a very personal and important issue.

So it was with great anticipation that I read Adam Kolasinski’s Feb17 column (“The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage”). However, the resulting impact left too many pins standing for me to be satisfied. His conclusions do not follow from his arguments, and his arguments are based on questionable assumptions. If this is the secular case against gay marriage, I enter a motion for summary judgment.

A questionable assumption submarines Mr. Kolasinski’s argument in the very first paragraph. His second sentence states that “state recognition of marriage is not a universal right.” Assuming he meant “legal right” instead of “universal right” (even free speech isn’t a “universal right”), this statement is patently untrue. Marriage is an explicitly stated right of United States citizens. In Loving v. Virginia [388 U.S. 1 (1967)], the United States Supreme court said: “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men. Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival …” This oversight changes the entire course of the discussion; the “burden of proof” is now on gay marriage opponents, and not “gay advocates,” as is suggested in the fourth paragraph.

But even if we grant Mr. Kolasinski his premise, his argument that gay marriage does not meet this burden is specious. Most of his column focuses on the idea that the state issues marriage licenses, “Because … propagation of society is a compelling state interest.” This assertion is presented as a well-known fact without any hint of background or attribution. It simply isn’t true.

There is no official, public “reason” for marriage licenses. Antagonists have suggested that marriage “licenses” originated as a mechanism to allow states to to prevent interracial marriages. Others point to the fact that some states have marriage records that extend back to the late seventeenth century, suggesting that it all started as a bookkeeping venture. The Massachusetts SJC decision addresses this very question, and they create a laundry list of reasons for marriage licenses. They begin by suggesting that civil marriages “enhance the ‘welfare of the community’,” and then list reasons like bookkeeping, property distribution, and the welfare of children. In six pages of reasons, they do not once mention “the perpetuation of society” or anything like it.

The Massachusetts Department of Public Health (sort of the “defendant” in this case) does later suggest that “providing a favorable setting for procreation” could be a valid legislative rationale behind a ban on same-sex marriage (this may have been the origination of Mr. Kolasinski’s argument). However, a rationale for new legislation is a far cry from a reason behind an existing system. And the distinction is important because Mr. Kolasinski’s argument suggests that the marriage licensing system is some sort of intentional, well-functioning piece of social engineering that gay marriage would disrupt. This assertion, properly made, would require a great deal more historical evidence (or, really, any historical evidence at all).
You can find a lot of things on the Internet. Care to find something that makes a good case for homosexual marriage or a good case against marriage altogether rather than some blither about not finding enough good arguments against homosexual marriage?

Remember, opposite sex marriage has been the standard… forever.

The burdern of proof that homosexual marriage wiill not be bad for society is on those promoting it.
 
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legeorge:
Not that I necessarily agree with their logic, but what could be more historical than marriage between a man and a woman? Let alone the obvious biology.
Enslaving other human beings is also an historical tradition that dates back to Roman times and probably earlier. In our country we enslaved Africans up until 1865. Under that logic, slavery should still be legal.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
Enslaving other human beings is also an historical tradition that dates back to Roman times and probably earlier. In our country we enslaved Africans up until 1865. Under that logic, slavery should still be legal.

Pete
Enslaving human beings did identifiable harm to those humans. Marriage does identifiable benefit for humans.

Getting rid of something harmful does not justify changing something beneficial.
 
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Brad:
You can find a lot of things on the Internet. Care to find something that makes a good case for homosexual marriage or a good case against marriage altogether rather than some blither about not finding enough good arguments against homosexual marriage?

Remember, opposite sex marriage has been the standard… forever.

The burdern of proof that homosexual marriage wiill not be bad for society is on those promoting it.
Would you have argued, earlier in this century, that black people had to make the case to whites that they were equal? Because the standard was that they were not, for hundreds of years.

By the way, I posted that article because it is a direct response to the article that Stu originally linked to. I thought it was a good response to that article, so I posted it.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
Thanks for that link, enjoyed the article. Not a bad argument, but I found the central assumption weak, and it didn’t change my mind.
The point of my post wasn’t to debate “gay marriage”. You claimed that one could not oppose “gay marriage” whithout using religion. Whether you agree with the arguments or not, your initial point is incorrect.
 
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Pete2:
Would you have argued, earlier in this century, that black people had to make the case to whites that they were equal? Because the standard was that they were not, for hundreds of years.

By the way, I posted that article because it is a direct response to the article that Stu originally linked to. I thought it was a good response to that article, so I posted it.

Pete
My apologies on not seeing the article connection.

I refer you to post #30. Slavery was bad. Marriage is good. Elliminating a bad is good. Modifying a good is potentially bad.
 
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Pete2:
Enslaving other human beings is also an historical tradition that dates back to Roman times and probably earlier. In our country we enslaved Africans up until 1865. Under that logic, slavery should still be legal.

Pete
Hey now, that is your Supreme Court’s logic! My logic goes a little like this: if homosexuals can legally marry, there is no reason why Joe Shmoe can’t marry his doberman, or sister, or 10 year old internet buddy. Why not? Are you discriminating against dogs? or relatives? or , , kids? Heck, I want to live in a world like that! Don’t you?

As for Hillary Clinton, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not placing any bets, but she’ll wind up schmoozing a LOT of wishy-washy Christians out there and end up our first woman president. I just know it. It scares the ‘you know what’ out of me. If nothing else, she is good at “spin”. She could probably make most people in this country vote for a gorilla. After all, we were once just like them right? We don’t want to discriminate against the evolution - challenged. :whacky:
 
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Stu:
The point of my post wasn’t to debate “gay marriage”. You claimed that one could not oppose “gay marriage” whithout using religion. Whether you agree with the arguments or not, your initial point is incorrect.
That’s true, the guy was arguing about gay marriage based on economic terms. But I wasn’t saying it can’t be done… I’m looking for compelling arguments against gay marriage that are not religious arguments. I don’t think there are any.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
That’s true, the guy was arguing about gay marriage based on economic terms. But I wasn’t saying it can’t be done… I’m looking for compelling arguments against gay marriage that are not religious arguments. I don’t think there are any.
Pete
I suppose that is a matter of opinion now isn’t it. Unfortunately as we increasingly become a country of moral relativism, opinions vice absolutes will become the norm.

If it feels good then do it. Isn’t that what they say?
 
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Brad:
I refer you to post #30. Slavery was bad. Marriage is good. Elliminating a bad is good. Modifying a good is potentially bad.
Ok, so look at this century: what about equal rights for women? Or blacks? How were these justified? Discrimination is bad. We all can agree on that. Homosexuals are being discriminated against based on sexual preference.

Allowing gays to marry causes no harm to any other human being in the country. It doesn’t damage anyone else’s marriage. The divorce rate is already pretty high, so the institution of marriage isn’t in all that great of shape under the stewardship of heterosexuals. Who’s to say that homosexuals are going to destroy the institution of marriage… it’s already a shambles!

There is no non-religious based argument anyone can put forth why homosexuals shouldn’t have an equal right to marry in a civil ceremony.

Pete
 
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Stu:
I suppose that is a matter of opinion now isn’t it. Unfortunately as we increasingly become a country of moral relativism, opinions vice absolutes will become the norm.

If it feels good then do it. Isn’t that what they say?
Well, we’re kind of in a weird spot here in the USA. The country is founded on individual freedom, including freedom to practice whatever religion you want. So with that, how can any one religious group say they have the fullness of truth over another group? More importantly, how can the US base law-making on one group’s truth and ignore another group’s truth?

As for me, I think the truth is in the Church. But as an American, I also think that legal rights are a different matter.

To clarify: This issue is different than abortion. In the case of abortion, a person is being killed. Their rights are being limited, severely. With homosexual marriage, a sin (as the Church sees it) is being allowed and recognized under the law. But nobody’s rights are being limited as a result. And there are many, many “Catholic Church approved sins” that are permitted under US law. Why is this one, gay marriage, any different?

Pete
 
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Pete2:
Well, we’re kind of in a weird spot here in the USA. The country is founded on individual freedom, including freedom to practice whatever religion you want. So with that, how can any one religious group say they have the fullness of truth over another group? More importantly, how can the US base law-making on one group’s truth and ignore another group’s truth?

As for me, I think the truth is in the Church. But as an American, I also think that legal rights are a different matter.
Truth is absolute. There is no “one group’s truth” and “another group’s truth”.

It’s great that you think the truth is in the Church. Then fight for it and don’t be ashamed.
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Pete2:
To clarify: This issue is different than abortion. In the case of abortion, a person is being killed. Their rights are being limited, severely. With homosexual marriage, a sin (as the Church sees it) is being allowed and recognized under the law. But nobody’s rights are being limited as a result. And there are many, many “Catholic Church approved sins” that are permitted under US law. Why is this one, gay marriage, any different?
Your argument against abortion could be characterized by those favoring infanticide as just “your truth” just as you dismiss arguments against “gay marriage”. Once again, there are absolutes.

“Gay marriage” undermines marriage, the traditional family unit and therefore the well-being of our children. There is evidence supporting such logic as well as common sense. Therefore it affects the rights of everyone else to a stable and productive society. Rebuttals that the state of marriage in the US is already degrading are fallacious. With such logic one could justify ridding society of almost all laws because some people don’t abide by them.
 
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Pete2:
That’s true, the guy was arguing about gay marriage based on economic terms. But I wasn’t saying it can’t be done… I’m looking for compelling arguments against gay marriage that are not religious arguments. I don’t think there are any.

Pete
The reason that society supports traditional marriage is that this institution provides stability for said society by creating the optimal situation to bear and raise children who become that society’s future solid citizens. No other partnership or arrangement is given this array of rights and responsibilities. From a purely secular point of view, society runs better with stable, intact families than with a variety of loose and transient relationships.

A homosexual union does not provide the same kind of optimal environment to raise stable citizens as a traditional male/female married couple. There are many many studies indicating that children who lack a father or a mother are greatly handicapped. Something like 80% of those in the justice system are the product of a single mother and no father in the home. A homosexual relationship by definition is abusive to the children purchased, bred or produced by the pair since they are denied an opposite sex parent. This does not seem like something society would want to promote does it?

Further as usual you use the slavery analogy. Getting rid of slavery removed a great evil. Allowing homosexuals to ‘marry’ doesn’t remove any great evil. Tell me how homosexuals are suffering commensurate to slaves by not being married?

So it behooves a society to support and promote the arrangement that provides the greatest opportunity to produce stable citizens. You don’t need religion to support traditional marriage as something that benefits society.

Lisa N
 
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