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Fidelis
Guest
Both are important. Either/or platitudes are unrealistic and are for the immature. Rephrased, one could ask: What is more important, love or truth? Again – BOTH!
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rr1213
Guest
Protestants and Catholics recite the same Nicene Creed since both Churches come out of the Western tradition. For the Orthodox (who actually have a pretty good argument that the Western Church unilaterally changed the wording as to the Filioque), this would still be an issue. The Real Presence in the Eucharist is going to be a problem for a whole lot of Protestants. For those for whom it is not a problem (a significant minority, usually Lutherans and some Anglicans), they would still have trouble with the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist vis-a-vis transubstantiation (as would the Orthodox if I understand their position correctly). Birth control? Who knows. Allegiance to the Pope? Lots of people, Protestant and Orthodox, are willing to pay respects to the Pope as first among equals and the primary Christian leader, but primacy and infallability are huge stumbling blocks. As for priestly celibacy, that is actually one of the few issues mentioned where the Catholic Church could budge since it is a matter of preference and not doctrine (whether the Church would budge is another question).
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Caesar
Guest
The Body of Christ is unified- as one Church under the Pope 
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rr1213
Guest
And the 800 or 900 million Christians who belong to Protestant, Orthodox or other churches? What are we…cat food?The Body of Christ is unified- as one Church under the Pope
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Caesar
Guest
Well, they arent in the Church, just in various levels of communion with the Church.And the 800 or 900 million Christians who belong to Protestant, Orthodox or other churches? What are we…cat food?
But the fullness of the Truth has not been broken, and does not need to be reunified.
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Genesis315
Guest
The Church is already one and unified. But, as John Paul II taught in Ut Unam Sint, the Lord desires all men–especially those who desire to profess Him as Lord–to experience the unity He has already bestowed on His Church.
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christianley
Guest
Unfortunately, the Vatican doesn’t seem to be very open to allowing married priests in the West. I think it is ludicrous that Eastern churches in communion with Rome can have married priests, but the Western rite can’t exept on a very limited basis. I must admit it is very hard for me to pray for more vocations as long as the Vatican doesn’t make more allowance for married priests.
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christianley
Guest
It doesn’t seem to me the Catholic Church will ever change its views on a celibate priesthood in the West. Perhaps it would even like to impose it upon the East if it could do so. The advantages to continuing with the celibate priesthood are too great to consider abandoning it.
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rr1213
Guest
Think about it. Out of all the items mentioned above, a celibate priesthood is the only item that is not doctrine or dogma and which the Catholic Church ADMITS is within the Church’s DISCRETION to change. If the Catholic Church is not willing to bend on matters that are not REQUIRED by its teaching, then there really is not hope for reunification short of absolute submission to the Catholic Church. No compromise, no give-and-take on matters that are NOT doctrine, just submission. From the Protestant side, I don’t see that happening either. A true negotiation posture would be a willingness to compromise on items that are not essential (such as a celibate priesthood) even while holding fast on items that are essential (matters that the Church considers dogma or doctrine).
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Mickey
Guest
The celibate priesthood in the West is a discipline–why should this discipline be compromised?
Did you know that Eastern Catholic priests can be married (if they are married before ordination)? Did you know that there are Roman Catholic priests who are married (ie: Anglican minister converts to Catholic Church and is already married). The celibate priesthood in the Latin Catholic Church is not oppressive–have you read what St Paul syas about celibacy?
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rr1213
Guest
Yes on all points. And this might not be an issue if, during a reunification, the Catholic Church says to Protestant and Orthodox Churches that their priests (assuming they have been validly ordained by Catholic standards) do not need to be celibate. If the Catholic Church is not willing to concede on this matter…a matter not required by doctrine…then why should non-Catholic Churches bother to even discuss the matter? The Catholic Church would be saying come home, but only on my terms, and I won’t compromise even on those things where Scripture itself says there is discretion.
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Mickey
Guest
It’s already being done , my friend! That’s my point! Married Anglican pastors are now Roman Catholic priests! Eastern Catholic priests are permitted to be married–just like the Orthodox. They would not have to compromise! It is already in place. However, if the non-Catholic layperson wanted to be a married Roman Catholic priest, it would not be permitted (just as I as a married Catholic man would not be permitted to be an ordained priest in the Roman Catholic Church)–that is the discipline they have followed for hundreds of years.
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rbarcia
Guest
**
Genesis 11
1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
**
Genesis 11
1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
**
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Mickey
Guest
John 17: 18-21
As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
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KindredSoul
Guest
I believe that Church Unity, as some of the other posters have said, already exists in the Fullness of the Catholic Church. I’m not yet Catholic, that said.
So what does this mean for Non-Catholics? From what I gather, both on this forum and out of it, every Christian is in some sense Catholic…in the literal, “Communion with the Pope in Rome” sense. But this Communion is imperfect. The One True Church is our (I am technically still among the number, I suppose, until Easter) Home, by virtue of our Baptism…and so we as Christians belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (which is the Church headed by Rome), but we do not take advantage of our blessing…we do not return Home.
The Catholic Church remains our Home for as long as we are Christian. As with a kidnapped child who never knows where his home is, our Home doesn’t cease to be our Home just because we do not recognize it. That, so far as I gather, can only happen when we finally do recognize it as our Home and reject it–whether because of laziness or just because it isn’t what we want to believe; then we become Runaways instead of Kidnappees. This is when we fall from grace…which makes common sense: If you actually recognize something as God’s will, and reject it, you’re sinning, separating yourself from Him. Any Protestant will agree, in principle; the same principle, from what I can tell, applies to coming Home to the Catholic Church as well.
Someone asked why Visible Unity under One Church matters? Simple…Christians today spend more time disagreeing than they do showing a unified faith to the world. This is inevitable: There can only be one Truth, and no one can blame Christians who refuse to “agree to disagree” on issues so monumental as their faith and morals. How can we, though, present a unified Christian effort to provide a moral compass to the world if we can’t even agree on Abortion, Homosexuality, and–in some cases–even something so obviously sinful as premarital sex?! People who look for Faith want answers, and “Just love God” will not cut it…people want to know “How will I know that I love God?” They recognize that a mere sentimental emotional “certainty” is unreliable. The Biblical answer is that you will know by your fruits…and only in the visible Unity of the Church can Christians, with a United Voice, tell the world what those Fruits are.
These thoughts are part of what started the journey which has ultimately compelled me to come Home to the Church. I at first wanted to be part of that Visible Unity…then I later recognized the Truth in that Unity, and realize I couldn’t in good conscience not come home, without being the Runaway (as opposed to the Kidnappee).
So what does this mean for Non-Catholics? From what I gather, both on this forum and out of it, every Christian is in some sense Catholic…in the literal, “Communion with the Pope in Rome” sense. But this Communion is imperfect. The One True Church is our (I am technically still among the number, I suppose, until Easter) Home, by virtue of our Baptism…and so we as Christians belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (which is the Church headed by Rome), but we do not take advantage of our blessing…we do not return Home.
The Catholic Church remains our Home for as long as we are Christian. As with a kidnapped child who never knows where his home is, our Home doesn’t cease to be our Home just because we do not recognize it. That, so far as I gather, can only happen when we finally do recognize it as our Home and reject it–whether because of laziness or just because it isn’t what we want to believe; then we become Runaways instead of Kidnappees. This is when we fall from grace…which makes common sense: If you actually recognize something as God’s will, and reject it, you’re sinning, separating yourself from Him. Any Protestant will agree, in principle; the same principle, from what I can tell, applies to coming Home to the Catholic Church as well.
Someone asked why Visible Unity under One Church matters? Simple…Christians today spend more time disagreeing than they do showing a unified faith to the world. This is inevitable: There can only be one Truth, and no one can blame Christians who refuse to “agree to disagree” on issues so monumental as their faith and morals. How can we, though, present a unified Christian effort to provide a moral compass to the world if we can’t even agree on Abortion, Homosexuality, and–in some cases–even something so obviously sinful as premarital sex?! People who look for Faith want answers, and “Just love God” will not cut it…people want to know “How will I know that I love God?” They recognize that a mere sentimental emotional “certainty” is unreliable. The Biblical answer is that you will know by your fruits…and only in the visible Unity of the Church can Christians, with a United Voice, tell the world what those Fruits are.
These thoughts are part of what started the journey which has ultimately compelled me to come Home to the Church. I at first wanted to be part of that Visible Unity…then I later recognized the Truth in that Unity, and realize I couldn’t in good conscience not come home, without being the Runaway (as opposed to the Kidnappee).
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christianley
Guest
I can’t imagine the Roman Catholic Church compromising on abortion or birth control. Would the Protestants accept that? I can’t imagine the Roman Catholic Church compromising on its view of the Eucharist. Would the Protestants accept that? I highly doubt the Catholic Church will ever compromise very much on its views on a celibate priesthood. The best way for unification to come about will be through the gradual movement of non-Catholic Christians to the Catholic Church as individuals.
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rr1213
Guest
I’m not a fan of the Catholic position on priestly celibacy, but that is a subject for another day. This is all speculation, of course, but let’s think it through. If reunification with a large section of the Protestant faith takes place, what is the likely format? It could be a simple “merger” in that the Protestant congregations become Catholic and the Catholic Church assigns them a priest and/or ordains (or conditionally ordains or whatever) the former protestant ministers. IF that is the case, and the Church insists that rule of priestly celibacy applies to the new congregations, then I think there is a problem with the lack of compromise on the Catholic position about a matter that, admittedly, is within the discretion of the Church (I argue that it isn’t but, again, a topic for another thread). On the other hand, if the newly reunited, formerly Protestants, congregations and churches come into the Catholic Church as some form of separate rite in communion with Rome (say a Lutheran rite, or an Anglican rite that is not dependent on the permission of Rome to remain an Anglican rite), then perhaps an accomodation could be made by Rome that the clergy in such rites could be married.
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rr1213
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Would Protestants accept these compromises? It would depend on the various churches that you are discussing. Interestingly, the protestant churches that would be anti-abortion and anti-birth control are, often, believers in a symbolic Eucharist. So, there are issues. I also doubt that the Catholic Church would be accomodating on any of these issues. My point is that of all of the issues that divide us, the rule of a celibate priesthood is probably the least important and, as the Catholic Church admits itself, a rule that the Church could in its discretion change. So, if the Catholic Church is not willing to compromise on issues that it has the discretion to compromise on, then what hope is there of any compromise at all? The answer is none…or at least very little.
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Mickey
Guest
The Catholic Church believes that Christ is the head of the Church and the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. That being said, the truth cannot be compromised. Notice the similarity between the words “discipline” and “disciple”. Unity would occur when our separated brethren enter into this communion out of obedience to Christs’ Church.
I do not say this to be uncharitable–so please do not take it that way.
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rbarcia
Guest
I agree with this,being one in Christ, but this is not exactly the same thing as being one religious system that is run like a government.
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