The Reunification of the Body of Christ

[rbarcia]

The Catholic Church believes that Christ is the head of the Church and the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. That being said, the truth cannot be compromised. Notice the similarity between the words “discipline” and “disciple”. Unity would occur when our separated brethren enter into this communion out of obedience to Christs’ Church.

I do not say this to be uncharitable–so please do not take it that way.

No compromising truth for the sake of unity?
**
Pope Benedict XVI
**
“I hope that in several occasions during the visit … my deep respect for great religions, in particular for Muslims – who worship the one God and with whom we are engaged in defending and promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men – has emerged clearly,” Benedict said during his weekly audience at the Vatican.

 

[Mickey]

No compromising truth for the sake of unity?

***Pope Benedict XVI ***

*“I hope that in several occasions during the visit … my deep respect for great religions, in particular for Muslims – who worship the one God and with whom we are engaged in *defending and promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men – has emerged clearly,” Benedict said during his weekly audience at the Vatican.

I don’t see a compromise of truth here. I see the bishop of Rome showing respect and compassion for fellow human beings.

 

[christianley]

No compromising truth for the sake of unity?
**
Pope Benedict XVI

---

“I hope that in several occasions during the visit … my deep respect for great religions, in particular for Muslims – who worship the one God and with whom we are engaged in defending and promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men – has emerged clearly,” Benedict said during his weekly audience at the Vatican.

Where I live there is a radio program everyday called Endtimes Ministry. Their main thesis is that some future Pope is going to head a one world church and be the great anti-Christ before Christ’s coming. I can’t imagine that ever happening.

 

[Image_of_God]

I agree with this,being one in Christ, but this is not exactly the same thing as being one religious system that is run like a government.

There are disagreements on this. And I believe also, but the words of Jesus are saying that the Church may be one as “the Father and I are one.” Many people who say, “well it is okay if we remain seperate, but believe in Jesus,” are taking to lightly the union between the Father and the Son. They are united in everyway, physically and spiritual, yet two seperate persons.
If we remember that the Church is the “new Israel” we realize that the old Israel had a government, and that this government has been spread throughout the whole world by Christ. Christ only has one body, and not anymore than that. We also know that the government of the Church is a somewhat small reflection of the kingdom of God. Not nessarily that I say that the kingdom will be governmental, but I say that the kingdom will have a king and the Old Israel also had a king and also the new Israel, has the Pope who sends out the orders of the true king, Jesus.

 

[Image_of_God]

The Catholic Church believes that Christ is the head of the Church and the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. That being said, the truth cannot be compromised. Notice the similarity between the words “discipline” and “disciple”. Unity would occur when our separated brethren enter into this communion out of obedience to Christs’ Church.

I do not say this to be uncharitable–so please do not take it that way.

I agree. The Church should not compromise the orthodoxy of the faith that she has just for reunion. Orthodoxy, is something that the Church has and to abandon it, would be to abandon the faith that the Fathers had in Christ.
The Early Fathers did not compromise with the other Churches that were seperated. They held firm in their beliefs. The members of the other Churches had to come back to the fullness of the faith.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Genesis 11

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. *And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. *Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

You do realize that the apostle’s first day of pentecost after Christ’s resurrection, within many Christian traditions I might add, was considered the beginning of the Inversion of the Tower of Babel?

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

Admittedly, some actually thought they were drunk. Peter, however, stands up and quickly and clarifies the matter for all who were willing to listen.

 

[rbarcia]

There are disagreements on this. And I believe also, but the words of Jesus are saying that the Church may be one as “the Father and I are one.” Many people who say, “well it is okay if we remain seperate, but believe in Jesus,” are taking to lightly the union between the Father and the Son. They are united in everyway, physically and spiritual, yet two seperate persons.

All catholics are not together in one place, all religions have people all over the globe.

If we remember that the Church is the “new Israel” we realize that the old Israel had a government, and that this government has been spread throughout the whole world by Christ. Christ only has one body, and not anymore than that. We also know that the government of the Church is a somewhat small reflection of the kingdom of God. Not nessarily that I say that the kingdom will be governmental, but I say that the kingdom will have a king and the Old Israel also had a king and also the new Israel, has the Pope who sends out the orders of the true king, Jesus.

The church is not the new Israel. If the church were Israel, then Paul would sound like a fool in chapter 11. Rev 4 shows a more accurate picture of heaven,

**
Romans 11

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

**

 

[rbarcia]

You do realize that the apostle’s first day of pentecost after Christ’s resurrection, within many Christian traditions I might add, was considered the beginning of the Inversion of the Tower of Babel?

I am sure you have some quote from some early church member to prove this thought. Why does the tower of Babel need to be inverted, God did away with it Himself?

Admittedly, some actually thought they were drunk. Peter, however, stands up and quickly and clarifies the matter for all who were willing to listen.

Yes, I know many thought they were drunk, that they spoke different tounges to spread the Gospel (the main task of the church).

 

[rbarcia]

I don’t see a compromise of truth here. I see the bishop of Rome showing respect and compassion for fellow human beings.

Muslims worship a god who has no other name but allah. Muslims say Jesus is not the Son of God, Christian say He is. By saying this is the same god, you create a god that is a liar. This is a violaiton of God’s command, “You shall not create idols.”

Jesus did not do any such thing. He called those who denied Him followed the Devil.

**
John 8

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

**

Jesus did not say, “We both worship the same god.”

**
1 John 2

21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

**

The Pope also spoke of peace as the common goal.

**

Mat 10

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

**

The statement of the pope shows respect for muslims, but not for God. There is a conflict, even if you do not admit it.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

rbarcia:

I am sure you have some quote from some early church member to prove this thought.

Pentecost is considered many Christians to be a theological reversal of the phenomenon of the Tower of Babel. St. Augustine held this view if I recall correctly. And many other Christians have picked up on this as well.

rbarcia:

Why does the tower of Babel need to be inverted, God did away with it Himself?

Do a search like I did and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

rbarcia:

Yes, I know many thought they were drunk, that they spoke different tounges to spread the Gospel (the main task of the church).

But you do understand the significance of contrasting Pentecost with The Tower of Babel, right?

 

[KindredSoul]

Muslims worship a god who has no other name but allah. Muslims say Jesus is not the Son of God, Christian say He is. By saying this is the same god, you create a god that is a liar. This is a violaiton of God’s command, “You shall not create idols.”

It is true…Muslims do not truly worship God as we do…but they do worship Him, to their knowledge. Your words only prove that they worship Him falsely, and in an unworthy manner. Perhaps it is true, then, that their prayers are directed elsewhere, maybe even to the Devil. It still doesn’t change the fact that, in theory, Islam worships the same deity, even if they unknowingly are worshipping something else. This does provide somewhat of a link between our faiths because Muslims do not think that Christians are pagan in regard to God the Father…hence there’s a possibility of peace between the two faiths that doesn’t exist between many other faiths, simply because at least both claim to worship the God of Abraham, thus both claim to worship the same God; I think it quite clear that this was the intention of the Pope’s statement; of course, since he held up no neon sign saying “You only think you are worshipping the same God,” many will miss that entirely.

The Pope also spoke of peace as the common goal.

The statement of the pope shows respect for muslims, but not for God. There is a conflict, even if you do not admit it.

While it’s tempting, and, under the circumstances, entirely fair to simply say “There is no conflict, even if you do not admit it,” I will not leave it at that. Yes, Christ brings a sword, not peace. If you will look around you…the Pope’s recent statements caused chaos, simply because he spoke the truth about the Muslims’ violent ways. Without even meaning to, the Pope brought a sword…which is far more likely to be one fulfillment of Christ’s words than someone who deliberately sets out to “bring a sword.” Even now, there are Muslims who are resentful because they want the Pope to resign, to convert, but he won’t. He is staying true to his faith, and that is causing conflict, without him even trying. I don’t guess that “sword” is sharp enough, though, for some. As for me, a beautiful, graceful, elegant sword (someone who causes conflict even though trying to show love) can be just as effective as a rusty, coarse one (someone who sets out to bring “the sword”); in my opinion, the Pope’s actions and the results are quite an example of just that…

 

[KindredSoul]

Continuing on my last post, I also realize that your whole premise was flawed anyway. You were trying to prove that the Church does compromise for the sake of unity in some cases. That’s simply not true. The Church is not willing to conform to any of the Muslim ways. The Church is not accomodating the Muslims in Her doctrine, morality, or practices. In other words, the Church is not changing anything about Her so that Muslims can (without abandoning their own religion) syncretize their faith with Catholicism, and become Muslim-Catholics. No matter what the Pope may or may not think of Islam, the fact stands that the Church does not consider them Catholics, and would forbid anyone to persue Islam and still call himself/herself Catholic, and wouldn’t even concur if he tried to even call himself/herself Christian for that case. So the Church’s practice here is no more compromising than it is regarding other Christian Churches. Your point, therefore, was moot to begin with, considering the conclusion that you were attempting to draw.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes, Christ brings a sword, not peace. If you will look around you…the Pope’s recent statements caused chaos, simply because he spoke the truth about the Muslims’ violent ways. Without even meaning to, the Pope brought a sword…which is far more likely to be one fulfillment of Christ’s words than someone who deliberately sets out to “bring a sword.”

Excellent point.

Jesus himself said, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[Image_of_God]

All catholics are not together in one place, all religions have people all over the globe.

I am sorry. That is not what I meant by physical. I meant that the Church is to be visibly one. The Churh is physically visible and as the creed says, it is one. That is all I meant.

The church is not the new Israel. If the church were Israel, then Paul would sound like a fool in chapter 11. Rev 4 shows a more accurate picture of heaven,

**
Romans 11

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.**

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That proves my point even more. He is refering to the land called Israel.
The people of God, which was inclusive only to the Israelites in Israel is now spread throughout the world. The people of God in Israel were his bride, but now through Christ, the People of God all over the world are the Bride, and this is called, the Church.

See read what the Catholic Catechism says and we will clear up any misinterpretations:

**759 ** The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life, to which he calls all men in his Son. The Father…determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ. This family of God is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, already present in figure at the beginning of the World, this Church was prepared in a marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Alliance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outporing of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.

**762 ** The remote preperation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people. Its immediate preperation begins with Isreal’s election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of all nations. But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant, Christ instituded this covenant.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[rbarcia]

I am sorry. That is not what I meant by physical. I meant that the Church is to be visibly one. The Churh is physically visible and as the creed says, it is one. That is all I meant.

That proves my point even more. He is refering to the land called Israel.

Romans 11

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, **until **the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The people of God, which was inclusive only to the Israelites in Israel is now spread throughout the world. The people of God in Israel were his bride, but now through Christ, the People of God all over the world are the Bride, and this is called, the Church.

See read what the Catholic Catechism says and we will clear up any misinterpretations:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The catechism is book is not the Bible, whjich is the Word of God.
The church and Israel are 2 separate entities. Salvation was opened to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who believed in Jesus. It was not a replacement.

God has bought Israel back to their land just as the Bible accurately predicts. When all the Gentiles come in, God will turn back to Israel. Just as verse 25 says.

 

[rbarcia]

It is true…Muslims do not truly worship God as we do…but they do worship Him, to their knowledge.

Their god’s name is allah, by saying you worship the same god, do you worship allah?

Your words only prove that they worship Him falsely, and in an unworthy manner. Perhaps it is true, then, that their prayers are directed elsewhere, maybe even to the Devil. It still doesn’t change the fact that, in theory, Islam worships the same deity, even if they unknowingly are worshipping something else.

This is not a fact, only if you use some strange philosphy lense. One is called allah, the other is called Yahweh. One has Jesus only as a prophet, the other has Jesus as His Son. One cannot be known, the other became man so we could know Him. One had a prophet name Mohamed, the other did not. One revealed Himself in a book called the Bible, written by over 40 men, over a period of 3500 years, with a consistent theme, the other reveal himself to one man with a single revelation. One calls Moses a Jew, the other a muslim. On calls Moses sister Mary, the mother of Jesus, the other one has Mary living thousands of years later.

It is a FACT that these 2 are not the same. Calling them the same is making God a liar.

This does provide somewhat of a link between our faiths because Muslims do not think that Christians are pagan in regard to God the Father…hence there’s a possibility of peace between the two faiths that doesn’t exist between many other faiths, simply because at least both claim to worship the God of Abraham, thus both claim to worship the same God; I think it quite clear that this was the intention of the Pope’s statement; of course, since he held up no neon sign saying “You only think you are worshipping the same God,” many will miss that entirely.

The Pope’s original statement surpirsed me, his apology did not. The minute he came under some persecution, he fell away and apologized.

While it’s tempting, and, under the circumstances, entirely fair to simply say “There is no conflict, even if you do not admit it,” I will not leave it at that. Yes, Christ brings a sword, not peace. If you will look around you…the Pope’s recent statements caused chaos, simply because he spoke the truth about the Muslims’ violent ways. Without even meaning to, the Pope brought a sword…which is far more likely to be one fulfillment of Christ’s words than someone who deliberately sets out to “bring a sword.” Even now, there are Muslims who are resentful because they want the Pope to resign, to convert, but he won’t. He is staying true to his faith, and that is causing conflict, without him even trying. I don’t guess that “sword” is sharp enough, though, for some. As for me, a beautiful, graceful, elegant sword (someone who causes conflict even though trying to show love) can be just as effective as a rusty, coarse one (someone who sets out to bring “the sword”); in my opinion, the Pope’s actions and the results are quite an example of just that…

The pope did not use a sword, he used peace. When muslims started threatening, he recanted and apologized. Then he made statements that make God a liar.

**

Mark 4

16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

**

 

[santaro75]

Then he made statements that make God a liar.

Don’t dis the Pope. I am pretty sure he is smarter than you.

He is also, whether you like it or not, in a position to create peace in the world. That is one reason we need a visible head of Christ’s church on earth.

 

[Fidelis]

The catechism is book is not the Bible, whjich is the Word of God. *Nobody said it was.

The church and Israel are 2 separate entities. Salvation was opened to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who believed in Jesus. It was not a replacement.

 

[KindredSoul]

Their god’s name is allah, by saying you worship the same god, do you worship allah?

You should really know that “Allah” is Arabic for “God”…just the same as “El” is Hebrew for “God.” And I didn’t say, mind you, that Muslims were in fact effectively worshipping God; I said that, theoretically, they are to their knowledge. They claim to worship the God of Abraham. So do we. Therefore, even if they’re wrong, they think that they’re worshipping the same deity. There were not two gods of Abraham. They think they are very much worshipping God; they do not think we worship a different god, they think we worship God wrongly. Therefore, it is a fact that the Muslims believe they worship the same God we do, they just think that we have it wrong; the same as if two people knew you, and one thought you had done something you in fact hadn’t. Both might very well be speaking of you; one of them just has the wrong description of you. It may be a horribly wrong description, but both people have you in mind. As for not explicitly saying “Oh, they only THINK they’re worshipping the same God” that’s just a little thing called tact…which brings us to…

The Pope’s original statement surpirsed me, his apology did not. The minute he came under some persecution, he fell away and apologized.

The pope did not use a sword, he used peace. When muslims started threatening, he recanted and apologized. Then he made statements that make God a liar.

You have effectively ignored my statement below:

Without even meaning to, the Pope brought a sword…which is far more likely to be one fulfillment of Christ’s words than someone who deliberately sets out to “bring a sword.” Even now, there are Muslims who are resentful because they want the Pope to resign, to convert, but he won’t.

Read: It is not unreasonable, *if *you believe in an all-powerful God, to believe that the Pope’s peace could be Christ’s sword. In spite of even the Pope’s best efforts, the violent among the Muslims are not appeased. You think this is peace? It doesn’t matter what the Pope’s intentions are…Christ is not allowing the sword of truth to be blunted.

Really, what scares me is that you act as though you would have more respect for the Pope if he tried to bring war… No Christian has to try to bring war. If Christ said He came to be a sword (by which, I have to say, it seems He meant as a natural consequence of people not wanting to tolerate Christianity, not that He actually wanted war), the sword will come even if the Christian tries to be peaceful. Considering this happened with the Pope only vindicates that Christ’s prediction is still coming true, even by the Pope’s actions…sometimes (as with any other human being; for none are impeccable) in spite of himself.

Also, please recall that your original point is still void. You wanted to point out that the Catholic Church compromises itself. It does no such thing. Everything that makes a Catholic a Catholic remains the same no matter what a Pope may or may not say about Islam. Catholics believe in the Gospel, and have certain moral beliefs. That remains unchanged. Catholics are not saying that they would accept Muslims into the Catholic faith who refused to acquit their Muslim identity. The Church obviously does not consider Islam the true Faith. The Church is not compromising so that Muslims will not have to forsake their ways to be joined with Her. Therefore, in light of the original point you were trying to make, the whole debate here is meaningless, and avails nothing.

 

[Image_of_God]

Romans 11

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, **until ***the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Again he is refering to the land Israel-the Jews, not to the actual complete People of God. If then Israel is the People of God and the Church is not the New Israel, what is the Church?

And another thing, Israel, throughout the Old Testament, is refer to as God’s Bride, but the Church is also God’s Bride, and there can only be one, so who is it?

We as the Church, are heirs to the promises of the assembly of Israel, we are the bride.

You need to figure out what Paul meant by Israel in this part of the Bible.

The catechism is book is not the Bible, whjich is the Word of God.
The church and Israel are 2 separate entities. Salvation was opened to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who believed in Jesus. It was not a replacement.

God has bought Israel back to their land just as the Bible accurately predicts. When all the Gentiles come in, God will turn back to Israel. Just as verse 25 says.

I never said the Cathechism was the Bible, I was hoping you would see the truth in those parts of it.

Also, I never said that the New Israel, replaced the Old, just as the New Testament, doesn’t replace the Old. The definition of Israel in some cases is-the people of God. Through Christ, with the New Covenant, his bride becomes new. The Church is not a replacement of the Old Israel, but a fufillment. Hence, the Jews and Gentiles are included and not only the Old Israelites-the Jews.

The Church is the “New Israel” in the sense that she is the People of God renewed by Christ in the New Covenant, just as the Old Israel was also the People of God in the Old Covenant.