The rich have money -- and passion

[vern_humphrey]

This being the Social Justice forum, let us first review what we mean by “social justice.”

Social Ministry has two main aspects: social service (also known as Parish Outreach) and social action

Social Service is giving direct aid to someone in need. It usually involves performing one or more of the corporal works of mercy. That is, giving alms to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick or imprisoned, taking care of orphans and widows, visiting the shut-ins etc. Another name for it is charity.

Social Action is correcting the structures that perpetuate the need. Another name for this is Social Justice.

So how do we get social justice (as opposed to charity?)

First of all, let us dispel some myths – that the rich inherit their money, and the rest of us cannot achieve what they have.

The rich have money – and passion
Interviews show that only a minority of the nation’s top 1% inherited their wealth or made it in the stock market. Most said they simply had a dream and were willing to take risks in pursuing it.

articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/EscapeTheRatRace/EscapeTheRatRace.aspx

And let’s take a look at some unlikely millionaires:

4 secret millionaires’ road to riches

articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/EscapeTheRatRace/4SecretMillionairesRoadToRiches.aspx

They’re from modest backgrounds, and they’ve faced plenty of hurdles. But these folks learned how to slowly, steadily build wealth without drawing the least bit of attention.

By Liz Pulliam Weston
You’re probably surrounded by them.
They live in modest homes, drive older cars, brown-bag their lunches. They don’t look like millionaires. And yet they’re worth seven figures.

Almost a decade ago, the book “The Millionaire Next Door” alerted America to these quiet-living folks who accumulate wealth while their neighbors spend themselves into debt.
Every day, more people join the ranks of the secret millionaires. Some of them post on the Your Money message board. I thought you might like to meet a few of them and learn how they did it.

Anyone can be affluent, as these stories show. All of us (baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money) can become self-supporting. None need rely on the charity of others (again baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money.)

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?

 

[mary_bobo]

And could I add that people need to make better choices for themselves. We are all products of the choices we make.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Vern
I believe one of the great social injustices has been not teaching the poor historically ASSESTS are the key to wealth. The rich do not to every business deal from which they profit, often they do only a few, sometimes they do very few or none. Often the owners of companies particularly large “S-corporations” know little about the company, products, or customers. Yet they either know how to leverage these assets or know how to manager (hire) people who do. Typically a review of the rich show many unpopular things to include 1) good genes, seldom to the rich could from the lower gene pool, 2) investment, to include good education, 3) resources- both physical and social, many in depth reviews find the successful failed, failed , and failed again only to have family reinstate them for another opportunity. I am not bad mouthing the rich or suffering class envy I simply ask the whole truth be portrayed. Nor do I fear the future, the future looks great. If you are aware of recent economic writing some believe this is continuing to change and soon assets will not predict wealth. This is based on 1) assets becoming readily available and cheap, 2) Man power becoming increasingly expensive. The key is preventing some from leveraging unjust power of others as in legislation to close borders, restrict free markets, etc. etc

BTW did you real expect the richest people to say anything other than “I earned it”?

 

[anthony022071]

There could never be an end to poverty. Jesus said that the poor will always be with us. Also, it would be structurally impossible for there to be a majority of affluent people. All societies seem to be pyramid shaped, with the great majority in a state of poverty or low-income at the bottom,a lesser proportion of middle-class people,an even lesser proportion of upper middle-class or aristocratic people,and a very small proportion of very wealthy people on the top. How could it be otherwise? How could there be a society structured like an upside-down pyramid, with a majority of affluent people? If the majority of Americans these days can think of themselves as middle-class, that is because we no longer have a slave class or much of an underclass of poorly-paid citizen laborers like we used to, but instead a lot of the manual-labor and factory jobs,and other “dirty work”,is done by poor people in other countries and by illegal immigrants.
When people suggest that anyone can become affluent through hard work and saving,or when success gurus try to inspire people to become avaricious “winners” like themselves,should Christians even consider it a desirable thing for people to become affluent or to become “winners”? I’d rather have Saint Francis’ attitude.
It may be true that “anyone” can become affluent,but in reality that “anyone” must remain a small minority.

 

[gmarie21]

Also, the affluent people I know (and I know quite a few within my own family - too bad they don’t pass that down to me ) are really miserable people. Maybe they’re miserable naturally, or maybe because they always want more, but they all are not content with their lives. Are their affluent people who are at peace with their lives, yes, but I would venture to say that they are a minority of the affluent population. Just look at the celebrity headlines and you’ll see just how peaceful the lives of celebrities are. Or how about the affluent politicians, many of them I fear will die of heart attacks with all the anger they seem to carry around.

Many poor give even when they don’t have much to give (I think Mississippi donates the most, and yet they are one of the poorest states in the country). Our goals in this life aren’t to be as rich as we can be. Our goals are to be holy, however an individual is meant to be holy only God and that individual knows. There are many who don’t listen to God’s will for themselves while pursuing the mighty dollar (or Euro, or whatever) and try every new age offer under the sun to try to be happy and at peace in their lives while being “successful”. I would rather be affluent with the love I give and receive from the people around me than with cold money. Yes, I need money to live just like everyone else, but all I ask is to have enough to support my family and maybe to enjoy one or two fun activities that may cost some money.

 

[levi86]

This being the Social Justice forum, let us first review what we mean by “social justice.”

So how do we get social justice (as opposed to charity?)

First of all, let us dispel some myths – that the rich inherit their money, and the rest of us cannot achieve what they have.

And let’s take a look at some unlikely millionaires:

Anyone can be affluent, as these stories show. All of us (baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money) can become self-supporting. None need rely on the charity of others (again baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money.)

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?

Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others who adhere to his theology assert that for one to be truly committed to social justice one must become part of the oppressed, the marginalised, the proletariat; that those on the comfortable side of the poverty line can never be free of the ideologies of western capitalism that continue to oppress the poor.

From reading your post it is painfully obvious that you have never been truly poor. If you had ever experienced poverty you would understand how condescending your comments are.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There could never be an end to poverty. Jesus said that the poor will always be with us.

We will always have people who, by reason of mental or physical handicaps, cannot support themselves. And some people will become addicted to drugs and alcohol.

But everyone else can be affluent – if we inculcate in them the basic values of getting a good education, working and investing.

Also, it would be structurally impossible for there to be a majority of affluent people.

Then the United States doesn’t exist – because more than half of us make several times more than the poverty level!

All societies seem to be pyramid shaped, with the great majority in a state of poverty or low-income at the bottom,a lesser proportion of middle-class people,an even lesser proportion of upper middle-class or aristocratic people,and a very small proportion of very wealthy people on the top.

In the United States, the majority are not in poverty. The overwhelming majority are in the middle class – and as the articles I posted show, everyone in the middle class can be affluent by the time they retire.

Many now on welfare could do the same – if we educated them and inculcated the right values.

How could it be otherwise? How could there be a society structured like an upside-down pyramid, with a majority of affluent people?

Look around you – the majority of people in the United States are not poor. And with the right values and strategy all those in the middle class can be affluent when they retire. Most of those in poverty can – with education and the right values – rise into the middle class.

If the majority of Americans these days can think of themselves as middle-class, that is because we no longer have a slave class or much of an underclass of poorly-paid citizen laborers like we used to, but instead a lot of the manual-labor and factory jobs,and other “dirty work”,is done by poor people in other countries and by illegal immigrants.

Now that is correct – we have created a labor black market. Yet people in that black market can rise into the middle class – and many do.

When people suggest that anyone can become affluent through hard work and saving,or when success gurus try to inspire people to become avaricious “winners” like themselves,should Christians even consider it a desirable thing for people to become affluent or to become “winners”?

When a person rises from poverty to become a “winner,” three good things happen:

1. That person no longer needs welfare or charity – leaving more for those who do.
2. That person becomes a contributor. He pays taxes, hires other people, produces goods and services – and that benefits all of us.
3. He passes on his values to his children – who become self-supporting, productive citizens.

I’d rather have Saint Francis’ attitude.

Would he have preached that people should scorn education, not work, and have no savings?

It may be true that “anyone” can become affluent,but in reality that “anyone” must remain a small minority.

Look around you – the majority of Americans have a very good chance of becoming millionaires if they adopt the right habits and attitudes.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others who adhere to his theology assert that for one to be truly committed to social justice one must become part of the oppressed, the marginalised, the proletariat; that those on the comfortable side of the poverty line can never be free of the ideologies of western capitalism that continue to oppress the poor.

If everyone is poor, who creates the jobs the poor need to support themselves?

If everyone is poor, who pays the taxes for the social programs so beloved to liberals?

If everyone is poor, who contributes to the charities that help the poor?

From reading your post it is painfully obvious that you have never been truly poor. If you had ever experienced poverty you would understand how condescending your comments are.

What is “obvious” to you is dead wrong.

You have “painted yourself a picture” and are now admiring your creation, mistaking it for reality.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Also, the affluent people I know (and I know quite a few within my own family - too bad they don’t pass that down to me ) are really miserable people.

It sounds to me like envy is speaking here.

I know a lot of poor people who are miserable. My wife and I work with a lot of people who use drugs, drink and drift from job to job. They are not happy.

Those of my friends who are self-supporting are much happier. They give to the Church and charities, they employ other people and live full lives.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern
I believe one of the great social injustices has been not teaching the poor historically ASSESTS are the key to wealth. The rich do not to every business deal from which they profit, often they do only a few, sometimes they do very few or none. Often the owners of companies particularly large “S-corporations” know little about the company, products, or customers. Yet they either know how to leverage these assets or know how to manager (hire) people who do. Typically a review of the rich show many unpopular things to include 1) good genes, seldom to the rich could from the lower gene pool, 2) investment, to include good education, 3) resources- both physical and social, many in depth reviews find the successful failed, failed , and failed again only to have family reinstate them for another opportunity. I am not bad mouthing the rich or suffering class envy I simply ask the whole truth be portrayed. Nor do I fear the future, the future looks great. If you are aware of recent economic writing some believe this is continuing to change and soon assets will not predict wealth. This is based on 1) assets becoming readily available and cheap, 2) Man power becoming increasingly expensive. The key is preventing some from leveraging unjust power of others as in legislation to close borders, restrict free markets, etc. etc

BTW did you real expect the richest people to say anything other than “I earned it”?

Did you expect those who dropped out of school, had children out of wedlock, used drugs and alcohol, and drifted from job to job (if they work at all) to have any feeling but envy for the “rich?”

But if a person has assets, and did not inherit them – by what means other than earning them could he have acquired them?

We can all be affluent – if we take advantage of the free education offered us, get jobs, work hard, constantly upgrade our skills, seek more responsibility, save and invest.

And we can help others – by fostering those values, instead of denegrating the people who practice them.

 

[gmarie21]

It sounds to me like envy is speaking here.

I know a lot of poor people who are miserable. My wife and I work with a lot of people who use drugs, drink and drift from job to job. They are not happy.

Those of my friends who are self-supporting are much happier. They give to the Church and charities, they employ other people and live full lives.

sorry to bust your bubble, but envy is not what I have for the affluent that I know. The poor may be unhappy too, I have also known those who are. It is those people who are content and at peace with their lives, no matter how rich or poor, who are happy. Money doesn’t have a whole lot to do with happiness, God has most of the hand as the reason why people are or aren’t happy (running away from God is very unfulfilling and unhappy).

If you’re trying to make an arguement for the Republican party, then say it. You won’t find any arguement from me. But, belittling people for not making the same choices as you and therefor not having as much as you is wrong and unChristian like. Some people sacrafice money for things that are greater than money (raising their children at home, helping the poor, having the job that doesn’t require stepping on people to make more money, etc.). So, as I had stated, affluence is not only measurable by “things” and “money” but can be measured by what is more important “love” and “faith”.

By the way, I am college educated and am a single mother, but I choose to make way less than I have in the past by working at a daycare so that I may be with my dd all day and that I may also help out my mother (who owns the daycare and has had horrible assistants in the past). To me, the quality time with both my mother and my daughter are more valuable than the $50000+ I could be making in business.

By the way, I have a father and step-mother who both make 6 figures per job they have (they both have two jobs, one with the Navy/Marines, the other with the government). I would never ask them for any money nor do I expect them to support me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

sorry to bust your bubble, but envy is not what I have for the affluent that I know.

Then why are trumpeting how “unhappy” they are? Are you a mindreader?

The poor may be unhappy too, I have also known those who are. It is those people who are content and at peace with their lives, no matter how rich or poor, who are happy.

Yet you told us the rich are unhappy?

Money doesn’t have a whole lot to do with happiness, God has most of the hand as the reason why people are or aren’t happy (running away from God is very unfulfilling and unhappy).

Then why were you so quick to tell us the rich are unhappy?

If you’re trying to make an arguement for the Republican party, then say it. You won’t find any arguement from me.

Where did** that** come from?

But, belittling people for not making the same choices as you and therefor not having as much as you is wrong and unChristian like.

I’m not the one who popped up and assured everyone that a certain class of people is “unhappy.”

Some people sacrafice money for things that are greater than money (raising their children at home, helping the poor, having the job that doesn’t require stepping on people to make more money, etc.). So, as I had stated, affluence is not only measurable by “things” and “money” but can be measured by what is more important “love” and “faith”.

And lack of envy?

By the way, I am college educated and am a single mother, but I choose to make way less than I have in the past by working at a daycare so that I may be with my dd all day and that I may also help out my mother (who owns the daycare and has had horrible assistants in the past). To me, the quality time with both my mother and my daughter are more valuable than the $50000+ I could be making in business.

Then why attack others for making their decisions?

Why attack those who pay the taxes, support the charities and create the jobs?

Why attack those who urge people to get an education, work hard, and save?

By the way, I have a father and step-mother who both make 6 figures per job they have (they both have two jobs, one with the Navy/Marines, the other with the government). I would never ask them for any money nor do I expect them to support me.

And what does that have to do with this thread?

 

[Maxply]

Some considerations:

Rich people I know are highly skeptical of individual appeals for gift-giving.

Research on nonprofits show rich people tend to give to institutions that largely support and benefit them.

My OWN beef with rich-folk is that they hire Washington lobbyists to create and defend tax advantages, and shove off their due responsibility.

Trust me, most rich people use the economy and government services more than you and I do, they put a larger “strain” on the system, so it’s fair they should pay more since they’re getting more out of the current lineup. And yes, I believe, corporations are NOT persons and should be treated differently than individual citizens.

 

[gmarie21]

Then why are trumpeting how “unhappy” they are? Are you a mindreader?

Yet you told us the rich are unhappy?

Then why were you so quick to tell us the rich are unhappy?

Where did** that** come from?

I’m not the one who popped up and assured everyone that a certain class of people is “unhappy.”

And lack of envy?

Then why attack others for making their decisions?

Why attack those who pay the taxes, support the charities and create the jobs?

Why attack those who urge people to get an education, work hard, and save?

And what does that have to do with this thread?

I am not attacking anyone, you initially started out stating that you can’t understand why people who don’t have disabilities aren’t rich. I also stated that those who I know who are affluent are mostly unhappy. Being on the recieving end of their unhappiness (even when they have everything they want, monetarily speaking) has led me to know that those affluent people in my life are unhappy and miserable when, according to you, their affluence should be enough for life. I am not against education, nor do I attack those who support education. I am simply stating that there are people who make educated decisions to not seek affluence and their decision to do such should also be respected. I don’t attack others’ decisions, if they have more than me, good for them. I am glad that I no longer judge my happiness based on comparisons to others.

Also, sometimes the most educated of people run out of luck. I have met many a homeless who lost a job and went into depression. Their spouse then left with the children and this person just couldn’t keep up with the bills and couldn’t get out of their depression to seek a job. So, sometimes you can do everything right and still end up with nothing. One thing is guaranteed, we all end up dead and either go to Heaven or Hell.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Some considerations:

Rich people I know are highly skeptical of individual appeals for gift-giving.

Do you have cites?

The studies I’ve seen indicate the rich give more than others – both percentage-wise and in absolute amounts.

Research on nonprofits show rich people tend to give to institutions that largely support and benefit them.

Please explain that – is a Catholic who supports the Church “giving to institutions that largely supports and benefits himself?”

When Winthrop Rockefeller (the recently deceased Lieutenant Governor of Arkansas) gave to fund adult reading instruction, was that “an instution that largely supported and benefited himself?”

When he adopted a child with Down’s Syndrome, was that “an instution that largely supported and benefited himself?”

When people in my church give generously to Right to Life, is that “an instution that largely supports and benefits thenselves?”

My OWN beef with rich-folk is that they hire Washington lobbyists to create and defend tax advantages, and shove off their due responsibility.

And you know that how? Can you give us cites and numbers?

And how is that different from, say AARP, which lobbies for more tax money for its members?

Trust me, most rich people use the economy and government services more than you and I do, they put a larger “strain” on the system, so it’s fair they should pay more since they’re getting more out of the current lineup. And yes, I believe, corporations are NOT persons and should be treated differently than individual citizens.

Let me get this straight – there are those who pay taxes and those who do not pay taxes. And you believe the people who pay the taxes get more than they put it?

That is a mathematical impossibility!

 

[catholicbuckeye]

This being the Social Justice forum, let us first review what we mean by “social justice.”

So how do we get social justice (as opposed to charity?)

First of all, let us dispel some myths – that the rich inherit their money, and the rest of us cannot achieve what they have.

And let’s take a look at some unlikely millionaires:

Anyone can be affluent, as these stories show. All of us (baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money) can become self-supporting. None need rely on the charity of others (again baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money.)

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?

Vern, I think you stated everything very well. Unfortunately, I don’t believe we as a society are doing anything to accomplish instilling the values of work and saving in our children. Our families are in bad shape and that is the first place children learn life values. Fathers usually teach discipline, both behaviorally and fiscally (ofcourse mothers can too but fathers generally are the boundary setters) and many children do not know their fathers. So what are our schools teaching children about work/saving? Now admittedly I have been out of high school (tough Catholic school at that) for 15 years but anecdotally all I hear about schools these days is they refrain from praising achievement, and try to remove competition from everything curricular (no honor role or valedictorians) and extracurricular (no winners or losers). You really have to instill in children a desire to compete and give them the feeling of accomplishment through merit rather than just telling everybody they’re special - ambition and desire are two traits that beat out almost all others in terms of being fiscally successful.

 

[catholicbuckeye]

This being the Social Justice forum, let us first review what we mean by “social justice.”

So how do we get social justice (as opposed to charity?)

First of all, let us dispel some myths – that the rich inherit their money, and the rest of us cannot achieve what they have.

And let’s take a look at some unlikely millionaires:

Anyone can be affluent, as these stories show. All of us (baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money) can become self-supporting. None need rely on the charity of others (again baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money.)

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?

Vern, I think you stated everything very well. Unfortunately, I don’t believe we as a society are doing anything to accomplish instilling the values of work and saving in our children. Our families are in bad shape and that is the first place children learn life values. Fathers usually teach discipline, both behaviorally and fiscally (ofcourse mothers can too but fathers generally are the boundary setters) and many children do not know their fathers. So what are our schools teaching children about work/saving? Now admittedly I have been out of high school (tough Catholic school at that) for 15 years but anecdotally all I hear about schools these days is they refrain from praising achievement, and try to remove competition from everything curricular (no honor role or valedictorians) and extracurricular (no winners or losers). You really have to instill in children a desire to compete and give them the feeling of accomplishment through merit rather than just telling everybody they’re special - ambition and desire are two traits that beat out almost all others in terms of being fiscally successful.

As far as charity goes, there is plenty of it going around but there is always room for more. I think everyone who has a little more in the pocketbook should look be more charitable with their money and those who don’t have cash but time could be more charitable with their time! Ofcourse, this is up to each person to decide for themselves!

 

[Brian_C]

I see a lot of sour grapes in this thread and a lot of stereotyping. There are rich happy people, rich miserable people, poor happy people, and poor miserable people.

I will be much happier to get out of our current debts once my wife moves into her private practice (pediatric) in the fall.

Hey, it was hard to support her on what I made while she was in med school.

 

[Vaclav]

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place.

What are we doing to accomplish this?

That is just poor economics.

There is only so much capital from which one can draw the needed investments. The idea that “we can all be rich” or “we can all live well” is not very likely (or is really not feasible, without some redistribution of wealth).

Social Justice is not a lesson in supply-side economics. No matter how much one wishes it were.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Did you expect those who dropped out of school, had children out of wedlock, used drugs and alcohol, and drifted from job to job (if they work at all) to have any feeling but envy for the “rich?”

And thus the problem I have with your original post. These people made their choices, people born with assets did not chose such. Either group is not representative of society, most simply do not fit in these 2 categories

But if a person has assets, and **did not inherit them **-- by what means other than earning them could he have acquired them?

It appears the earlier post was misunderstood. All people are born with some resources, there is a strong correlation with resources to wealth.

We can all be affluent – if we take advantage of the free education offered us, get jobs, work hard, constantly upgrade our skills, seek more responsibility, save and invest. And we can help others – by fostering those values, instead of denegrating the people who practice them.

Well I guess that depends on the definition of affluent. I notice you seem to dismiss the concept of some restricting the affluence of others? Even in the US today this is a constant problem ( read the Wright Amendment, or the Byrd Amendment) I truly believe people suffer more from restriction than envoy.