The rich have money -- and passion

[vern_humphrey]

Very true.

There are not many nations left devoted to the former though, with the exception of Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

But I agree.

A couple of decades ago, that list would be much longer – but many of those systems have since collapsed of their own weight.

 

[gmarie21]

Indeed.

We should stop trying to read each other’s minds and read the posts. No one calls the poor “lazy or ignorant.” And on the other side of the discussion no one is defending those qualities.

However, there are social attitudes that make people believe they “can’t make it.” And that those who succeed are somehow “cheating.”

We would do the next generation a great service if we could dispel those attitudes, convince them they can “make it” and insure they get the education they need – including a thorough understanding of the value of saving and investing.

I agree about everyone getting the education they need, but still, you must factor in Free Will. I had a great Catholic grade and high school education about saving and investing (was taught how to balance a checkbook and how to save by mid-6th grade, and about investing in high school as well as living within one’s means in high school).

I am concerned, however, if you believe that affluence is the most important part of solving all the social justice problems of the world? Just look through these boards and you’ll find many who step-down economically to increase the likelyhood of teaching their children values (homeschooling or working less to be home more). How many millionaires work only 40 hour weeks? I know that my dad (just an example) works close to 80 hours per week (and my step-mom about 65 hours per week) while my sister (who’s still in high school) is home alone a lot. Also, my dad worked the same 80 hours when I was young and well, I believe, had he spent less time working, and more time at home, our relationship would be much better than it is today (and our relationship is the best out of all the relationships with his six children).

 

[buffalo]

Social Justice focusses on social matters – material poverty and the causes thereof.

So do we believe sharing the wealth effectively decreases spiritual poverty? Is it possible we approach this backwards?

 

[Vaclav]

OK, first let me apologise for my earlier comments.

I did engage in a bit of mind-reading there and it was rather unfair. I do agree that teaching people the basics of personal finance, how to save for retirement, and other such issues are very important. In the United States you’ll want to add the necessity of health insurance to that list as well.

At the same time I agree with gmarie that personal time is very important as well.

Also, I don’t really have a problem with more of a role by the government (but I could be allowing my European side to show through ). For example, I don’t particularly care for the extremely expensive healthcare system in America, which still costs more of a percentage of the GDP than in most nations with a national healthcare system! In that way I think that a social injustice is done to a lot of the poor.

Yet, as was said earlier - no system is perfect.

A couple of decades ago, that list would be much longer – but many of those systems have since collapsed of their own weight.

I’m well aware, I lived on the border with the DDR

 

[catholicbuckeye]

OK.

I thought this was more of a discussion on economics, which by the way is what separates me from Michael Moore (among many other things I’m sure).

I have no grudges or chips on my shoulder. I am very happy to be a Catholic, and very much enjoy the Social Teachings of the Church.

Yet, I don’t believe that unfettered capitalism is the panacea of all ills, nor is America’s version necessarily superior to all others. There are of course, some very real problems with poverty in this country (as with many countries) and I am proud of the Church’s charitable work to deal with these.

Sorry how I came off there, I really apologize and didn’t mean to seem condescending. I am sure I would never confuse you with Michael Moore! As far as unfettered capitalism…what I believe, is that almost any system could work, what prevents any system from being perfect is our wounded human nature. Certain systems play towards the poorer aspects of our human nature and others play towards the positive. While capitalism, or unfettered capitalism isn’t perfect (I wholly agree with you), it seems it is only as imperfect as the people involved. However, on the whole I do think it provides more incentive to work and achieve, which serves the community as a whole as opposed to say, communism, which only rewards those who attain power in government. So the fruits of ambition in capitalism are products, goods and services from those who work hard and offer those skills to the market; the fruits of ambition in communism are oppression and tyranny of those struggling to keep power.

I did also do a quick internet search on my “factoid” from before and found a CNN article online that stated there were 7.5 million Americans with > $1,000,000 in assets. That’s 1 in 40 (300 mil Americans). This is a great country with great opportunities. I am not a wealthy guy buy any means but I thank God that I was born here, it could have been worse!!!

 

[Brian_C]

I think that some here think poverty=laziness and ignorance and therefore if you defend those who are living in poverty you’re defending laziness and ignorance. All are wrong assumptions, obviously.

No, I was merely replying to Vaclav’s post where he replied that

There is only so much capital from which one can draw the needed investments. The idea that “we can all be rich” or “we can all live well” is not very likely (or is really not feasible, without some redistribution of wealth).

I certainly agree that positive thinking is not the key to all wealth. If that were the case, we could just hand out copies of The Secret to everyone.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree about everyone getting the education they need, but still, you must factor in Free Will. I had a great Catholic grade and high school education about saving and investing (was taught how to balance a checkbook and how to save by mid-6th grade, and about investing in high school as well as living within one’s means in high school).

I’m struggling to understand what you mean by “Free Will.” My understanding is that it means we are free to choose, not that we are condemned to make bad choices.

So I factor in Free Will by saying, “If we make children aware of their choices and the consequences of those choices, and equip them to make the good choices – more children will make good choices.”

I am concerned, however, if you believe that affluence is the most important part of solving all the social justice problems of the world?

Affluence is the Double Whammy – if a child of a single parent on welfare absorbs the values and gets the education to become affluent, we have one less person on welfare and one more person to contribute to helping others.

Just look through these boards and you’ll find many who step-down economically to increase the likelyhood of teaching their children values (homeschooling or working less to be home more).

Which leads me to ask, “What do we mean by affluent?”

My mother dreamed of having $200,000. At 6% interest, that would bring a thousand dollars a month!! To her, that was incredible affluence!

Of course, today, a thousand dollars a month would leave you below the poverty level.

So I say, “Affluence is measured by the choices you have.” A mother who chooses to stay at home is affluent – because she has that choice.

How many millionaires work only 40 hour weeks? I know that my dad (just an example) works close to 80 hours per week (and my step-mom about 65 hours per week) while my sister (who’s still in high school) is home alone a lot. Also, my dad worked the same 80 hours when I was young and well, I believe, had he spent less time working, and more time at home, our relationship would be much better than it is today (and our relationship is the best out of all the relationships with his six children).

I know a lot of people below the poverty level who spend little time with their children, too. Indeed, almost the signature of poverty is the single mom – no dad in the picture at all.

 

[anthony022071]

Why should Catholics,or anyone who has meditated upon the beatitudes,or observed how God prefers the poor,weak,and the lowest among us entertain the thought that to be affluent is really a good thing? Why should we even be so ambitious to acquire wealth and goods,when it so easily leads to
pride,self-satisfaction,self-justification,mistaken priorities,hard-heartedness,and a lessened dependence upon God ? What man exalts is an abomination in the eyes of God,as it says
somewhere in the Old Testament. Many of the wealthy men we are tempted to admire and envy turn out,on closer inspection,to be like walking abominations. They are small men who have propped themselves up on a mountain of money,goods,reputation. If you were to sever,in your mind’s eye,these men from their money,goods and reputation,what would you be left with to admire ? You’d be left with weak,petty,bitter,cursing,rotten,self-spoiled brats with immature attachments. Wealth is a dubious thing to have. It easily becomes more of a curse, in God’s eyes, to the person who has it,even if he thinks he is happy. Few people can have wealth without it having a corrosive effect on the soul or a hardening effect on the heart.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why should Catholics,or anyone who has meditated upon the beatitudes,or observed how God prefers the poor,weak,and the lowest among us entertain the thought that to be affluent is really a good thing? Why should we even be so ambitious to acquire wealth and goods,

Because it leads to the Double Whammy. Once a formerly-poor person becomes prosperous, he goes from a consumer of charity to a giver of charity.

when it so easily leads to
pride,self-satisfaction,self-justification,mistaken priorities,hard-heartedness,and a lessened dependence upon God ?

Why do you say that? What evidence do you have that the affluent are morally inferior to other people?

What man exalts is an abomination in the eyes of God,as it says
somewhere in the Old Testament. Many of the wealthy men we are tempted to admire and envy turn out,on closer inspection,to be like walking abominations. They are small men who have propped themselves up on a mountain of money,goods,reputation. If you were to sever,in your mind’s eye,these men from their money,goods and reputation,what would you be left with to admire ? You’d be left with weak,petty,bitter,cursing,rotten,self-spoiled brats with immature attachments. Wealth is a dubious thing to have. It easily becomes more of a curse, in God’s eyes, to the person who has it,even if he thinks he is happy. Few people can have wealth without it having a corrosive effect on the soul or a hardening effect on the heart.

It sounds like you really dislike the affluent.

Let me ask you this, if someone took your statement and repeated it word for word – but changed “wealthy men” to “blacks,” “Jews” or “Catholics.” would you not consider that person to be showing prejudice?

 

[anthony022071]

Because it leads to the Double Whammy. Once a formerly-poor person becomes prosperous, he goes from a consumer of charity to a giver of charity.

Why do you say that? What evidence do you have that the affluent are morally inferior to other people?

It sounds like you really dislike the affluent.

Let me ask you this, if someone took your statement and repeated it word for word – but changed “wealthy men” to “blacks,” “Jews” or “Catholics.” would you not consider that person to be showing prejudice?

My only “evidence” is from my own observation along with the observations of the Old Testament writers. I don’t know that the affluent are morally inferior than those who aren’t, it’s just that for wealthy men
the scope and opportunity for sin and evil are greater,and there is a greater temptation to incline toward hard-heartedness,self-justification,self-satisfaction,arrogance,and pride. Our inclinations in this direction can easily become magnified with the getting and having of wealth. When we focus on money,goods,and property so much,it shows where our heads are really at and what we really believe in,despite our self-justifications.
Even charitable institutions are misguided when they take the quantitative,business-like,money-driven approach to charity. They always ask for more donations,more funding,and can never have enough. They do not consult and petition God through constant prayer,they do not really believe that God will provide,and it does not occur to them to dig deep into their own pockets,but think they can do nothing without other people’s money.
I admit that I may be prejudiced against wealthy men – to the extent that those who prop themselves up on a mountain of money,property and reputation tend to look ridiculous,sometimes abominable to me. If I don’t feel this way then I will be inclined to envy them like I used to. Wealthy men serve to distract people away from what they should really value.

 

[vern_humphrey]

My only “evidence” is from my own observation along with the observations of the Old Testament writers. I don’t know that the affluent are morally inferior than those who aren’t, it’s just that for wealthy men the scope and opportunity for sin and pride are greater,and there is a greater temptation to incline toward hard-heartedness,self-justification,self-satisfaction,and pride.

Again, that’s supposition.

I’ll point out, I never had a rich man try to mug me.

Our inclinations in this direction can easily become magnified with the getting and having of wealth. When we focus on money,goods,and property so much,it shows where our heads are really at and what we really believe in,despite our self-justifications.

Just as poverty, lack of education, and idleness can lead to drug abuse, crime and so on.

Money, or lack thereof should not be used as a moral judgement.

Even charitable institutions are misguided when they take the quantitative,business-like,money-driven approach to charity. They always ask for more donations,more funding,and can never have enough.

That might be because not enough people are able to lift themselves out of poverty.

They do not consult and petition God through constant prayer,they do not really believe that God will provide,and it does not occur to them to dig deep into their own pockets,but think they can do nothing without other people’s money.

How do you know that?

It’s perfectly true that some charities are scams, but what justifies this blanket condemnation?

I admit that I may be prejudiced against wealthy men – to the extent that those who prop themselves up on a mountain of money,property and reputation tend to look ridiculous,sometimes abominable to me. If I don’t feel this way then I will be inclined to envy them like I used to. Wealthy men serve to distract people away from what they should really value.

So it’s envy them or hate them?

Why not respect those who work hard and achieve – and use their success as an incentive to others?

As I said, everything is in place in this country to make everyone affluent – all we are lacking is the intangibles – education, hard work, and saving.

 

[levi86]

Western Capitalism is not oppressing people today.

You don’t honestly believe this do you?

Is being “poor” a requirement for commenting on it or having an opinion. What criteria do you propose for someone to have the right to comment or think about poverty?..Only doctors who have had cancer can diagnos it?

This is of course a flowed example; because there is no conflict of interest.

Can a doctor sincerely fight for the treatment of cancer with a particular drug if that doctor has shares in the manufacturer? Of corse he could, but he loses objectivity and ultimately credibility.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You don’t honestly believe this do you?

Perhaps you could offer some evidence it is oppressing people.

This is of course a flowed example; because there is no conflict of interest.

Can a doctor sincerely fight for the treatment of cancer with a particular drug if that doctor has shares in the manufacturer? Of corse he could, but he loses objectivity and ultimately credibility.

However, if he cures the patient, he restores his objectivity and credibility, no?

 

[levi86]

However, if he cures the patient, he restores his objectivity and credibility, no?

Exactly, if the treatment works the doctor will be vindicated. However the treatment of poverty with capitalism has not “cured” the disease and until it does we should treat capitalists, like the doctor, with suspicion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Exactly, if the treatment works the doctor will be vindicated. However the treatment of poverty with capitalism has not “cured” the disease and until it does we should treat capitalists, like the doctor, with suspicion.

You’re kidding, right?

We have more people working than ever before. Thanks to capitalism we are able to afford things from paved roads to Medicare.

 

[levi86]

You’re kidding, right?

We have more people working than ever before. Thanks to capitalism we are able to afford things from paved roads to Medicare.

Take a walk on the bad side of the tracks and you’ll see how naive you are. (Your country has a habit of sweeping its poor under the carpet) This is how I know you have never experienced poverty; someone who has been truly destitute would never deny the existence of crushing poverty.

BTW I wouldn’t hold up your Medicare system as proof of success.

 

[anthony022071]

Again, that’s supposition.

I’ll point out, I never had a rich man try to mug me.

Just as poverty, lack of education, and idleness can lead to drug abuse, crime and so on.

Money, or lack thereof should not be used as a moral judgement.

That might be because not enough people are able to lift themselves out of poverty.

How do you know that?

If they really believed that prayer is efficacious and that
God will provide help,and that they should use their own money and resources in the meantime,they would not allow thenselves to become so dependent on other people’s donations,as if Christian charity should be institutionalized.They would not be so prone to worry and fret over lack of funds.

It’s perfectly true that some charities are scams, but what justifies this blanket condemnation?

Christian charities have bought into and internalized this corporate way of thinking. Not long ago I saw a poster for a Franciscan charity that implied that donating to a charitable institution like themselves was better,“more effective” than the personal act of helping a homeless person directly. How dare they! That is an insidious and cynical way of thinking which undermines the value and truth of personal works of mercy.
Since when is what an institution can give better than what individual persons can give to each other with love?

So it’s envy them or hate them?

I don’t really hate them,but I disdain the temptation to become like them,and I’m annoyed by the admiration and fear that people have for those who have wealth.

Why not respect those who work hard and achieve – and use their success as an incentive to others?

**I can respect those who work hard and achieve,but I can’t respect
the hard-heartedness,impatience,and pride that people often show toward those who,for whatever reasons,are not on their level of accomplishment. **

As I said, everything is in place in this country to make everyone affluent – all we are lacking is the intangibles – education, hard work, and saving.

It may be true that everything is in place for everyone to become affluent,but knowing what we know about human nature – its variety and selfishness,it will never actually work out that way.

 

[gmarie21]

It may be true that everything is in place for everyone to become affluent,but knowing what we know about human nature – its variety and selfishness,it will never actually work out that way.

I agree with much of your thinking, except for your thoughts about non-profit charity organizations. Having been a president of one located in DC, and having volunteered with many non-profits, each has their own purpose. Can you take your money and help and individual homeless person? Yes, but you’ll have to make sure they eat, get an education, have an address and phone number (most employers won’t hire someone who doesn’t have an address or phone number), and have identification. Not an easy task at all, but if you have the money to do such, by all means, please do. Non-profit organizations are set up to help certain groups as described by their mission. You have the right to donate to a cause you support, but talk to any employee of a non-profit and you will learn about how there isn’t that “corporate mentality” that you describe in obtaining money for the organization. And yes, religious, non-profit, charity organizations do pray for God to provide, and God does provide through donations of others.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Take a walk on the bad side of the tracks and you’ll see how naive you are.

Do you think you’re the only person who sees or works with the poor?

(Your country has a habit of sweeping its poor under the carpet)

More of the “I hate America” syndrome.

This is how I know you have never experienced poverty; someone who has been truly destitute would never deny the existence of crushing poverty.

You know wrong.

Do we have poverty in America? Yes. But we also have the cure – which is available to all.

The fundamental cause of poverty in America is the welfare system. It is abetted by those who tell the poor the game is rigged and they can’t win – instead of telling them to stay in school, work hard, save and invest.

BTW I wouldn’t hold up your Medicare system as proof of success.

I didn’t hold it up as proof of success – I held it up as proof of prosperity. We could never pay for it if things were as bad as you seem to think they are.

 

[gmarie21]

You’re kidding, right?

We have more people working than ever before. Thanks to capitalism we are able to afford things from paved roads to Medicare.

Of course, you’re forgetting all the greed that comes before those lousy roads (been in Illinios lately, our toll money and tax money is not doing a very good job of having pot-hole free roads) and that soon to be emptied Medicare system. You see, money tends to cause people to not only increase their bank account but also their greed. As always, there are exceptions to this, but they are not the majority.

I have a question for you…anyone who makes a negative statement about wealth is, seen by you, an envious person? Have you thought that some of us aren’t envious, but just are observant of the realities of some of the affluent? YOu are quick to stereotype the poor, but yet assume that those who stereotype the rich are envious. Neither group should be stereotyped (which is why I have referred to those I know who are affluent). Maybe you should listen to Fr. Corapi, a man who had A WHOLE BUNCH OF AFFLUENCE in his past. His stories are enough to point that our arguements should not be focused on monitary wealth, but spiritual wealth.