The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[Cachonga]

panevino:

are you really asking me to provide an incription that has the words “temporal punishment” on it? - why?
I am showing a practice of praying for the departed by christians in the mid 100’s and early 200’s backed up by book of Macc (written sometime BC ) and held to be scripture by Tertullian.

I apologize for allowing this to stray off topic. Lest I be accused of “avoiding the hard questions”, let me just point out that Tertullian became a Montanist, and “The Passion of the Holy Martyrs Perpetua and Felicity” has some very Montanists views in them (see here).

Without Scripture to support the claim, I would suggest that praying for the dead is nothing more than a tradition of men that crept into the church. Just as a rhetorical question - were prayers for the dead in the medieval times that “thy spirit be in refreshment”, or were they concerned more with relieving the soul from the torments of purgatory? Refreshment and release are not the same thing!

the verses indicate to me that there may be venial sins (ie: sins not unto death) that may be dealt with after death. assisted by our prayers

And it indicates this because the “church says so”, right? This sounds like another topic for another thread.

and verse like 1 cor 3:13 points to something that occurs to the departed (even if you dont agree to it being the process of purgatory) that I would like to pray for.

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

trying our works is not the same as going through purgatory, but that’s another topic for another thread.

 

[jlhargus]

Mark

 

[Robbinson]

Now here’s a problem even Catholics have. You may have noticed that there were a few Catholics who did think the rich man was in purgatory. I hear a lot about the “infallible teaching magisterium” of the church, yet it has “infallibly” defined very little Scripture. If your “infallible” authority hasn’t defined a particular Scripture (such as the story of Lazarus and the rich man), on what basis can Catholics have diametrically opposed views and still claim to be in union with the church? Since this is off topic, feel free to treat this question as rhetorical, but at least think about what it means.

We agree on this - The Church has not infallible defined on all of scripture, indeed, as you suggest, really only on “core doctrines” . There is great liberty for the believer to hold various views on different verses of scripture - but these do not affect salvation. Thus there remains “diversity” within the body, yet “unity” on core elements of our faith. Outside the Church, even “core” issues are up for grabs as between denominations.

I don’t believe I’m disagreeing with Paul at all. However, I do believe that if he was to come back and see the church of today, he would not recognize it, and would certainly not consider it to be “Christian”.

I guess I’ll just have to strongly disagree with this last statement - will take it as your opinion. I’d say rather that what Paul would find unChristian is the rejection of the authority expressly given by Jesus to Peter and the Apostles. He would not recognize 18th century doctrines like the rapture; would likely scratch His head regarding ignoring the sacraments and would cringe at the level of judgement and condemnation that has infected many “strains” of Christianity.

So - we can share, I hope (I’m sure) our common love of Christ and our common prayer for unity in the body and that where disagreement lies, it is explored always in patience and in love. As Paul said, we will be known by how we “love oneanother”.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[jlhargus]

Notice verse 23 (found in Luke 16) reads “In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.” (emphasis mine) I would suggest that think this is an indication of purgatory is to completely ignore the Biblical text BTW, I have looked up this verse in more than a dozen versions, and they all say either hell or hades.

JL: Where did the souls of Jesus and the repentant thief go “THAT DAY” and the next three days, after bodily death on the cross?

Lazarus and the rich man, [Lk16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW HE IS COMFORTED, and THOU ART TORMENTED.] Lazarus was comforted in HELL=English, HADES=Greek, SHEOL=Hebrew in the CHAMBER OF PARADISE or Abraham’s Bosom. The rich man in Hell was in a chamber of torment.

Whether the rich man was in a chamber of purgatory or one of the chambers of the lost in Hell is open for theologians to discuss. Some theologians see the rich man in purgatory, since he is concerned with the salvation of his brothers, indicating LOVE, [Lk16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.]

Those in a chamber of the LOST in Hell would not care about anyone, but would HATE and want others to be in Hell, with them. Also some theologians think Christ visited ALL the chambers of Hell, from Abraham’s Bosom to the deepest chambers of Hell where the evil angels are chained.

 

[jlhargus]

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

[25] "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

[27] "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

[29] "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

[30] " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

[31] "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Is this hell or purgatory? It sounds terrible like it is hell, yet Pope Benedict I believe recently implied it was purgatory.

JL: Could you give the source for your OP, if it is the following line could you please point out the paragraph where the Pope implied purgatory. I didn’t see it, but could have overlooked it. Actually I saw the opposite

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/18/romano-guardini-on-revelation/

 

[Hope3]

OK, so this is a good indication of where this tradition of men came from. However, ZhaneAugustine claimed that “there are plenty of **references in the bible **where we read about prayers for those who have died,” (emphasis mine), and that is what I was asking for.

Not all the Jews believed in the bodily resurrection of the dead. (Sadducees did not.)

All Canons:

**Zech. 9:11 **“As for you also,
Because of the blood of your covenant,
I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” (Purgatory)

Luke 12:47-48 “**And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. **For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”

1 Cor. 15:29-30 “Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? [30] Why am I in peril every hour?” [1 Corinthians 9:27](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+9:27&version=NKJV)

2 Tim. 1:16-18 “The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.” (Onesiphorus recently died.)

1 Peter 3:19; “by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,” (purgatory)

1 Peter 4:6 "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Limbo/Abraham’s Bosom)

**Phil. 2:10 **“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,” (Purgatory, since Limbo is no longer inhabited)

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 “13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Septuagint:

Baruch 3:4 “O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.”

2 Mac.12:43-44 “and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. [44] For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Sirach 3:30 Water extinguishes a blazing fire: so almsgiving atones for sin.

Sirach 7:33 "Give graciously to all the living, and withhold not kindness from the dead.

All the early Divine Liturgies/Masses had prayers for the dead.

 

[Hope3]

But that passage does not say the righteous will enter heaven. We cannot even find the word “heaven” on that passage. Maybe I should I ask this first: Where in Scripture can we find heaven promised as the reward of the saved? Then, we go to that question, “How do you know that human beings were able to enter heaven after Jesus died?”

John 14:2-3 “In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

No merely human person had ascended into heaven before Jesus’ death:

John 3:13 “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.”

 

[Hope3]

This “Paradise of God” is NOT in heaven.

Turn to Rev. 22:1-2. It says: “And he showed me a pure river of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life….”

Now, here we find the Tree of Life. Where is this located? It says it is where the “throne of God and of the Lamb” is situated. But is this “throne of God” the throne of God in heaven? No! In chapter 21 we find that this “throne of God and the Lamb” is in the holy city, New Jerusalem. And if we read verse 2, it says that John saw this New Jerusalem, “coming down from God out of Heaven prepared us a bride….” – in other words, coming down to this earth.

The New Jerusalem is a “part” of the “heaven” of God.

As Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you [the New Jerusalem, the place being prepared]… I will come again [come again to this earth]… so where I am [on this earth], you may be also [on this earth, not in heaven]” (John 14:2-3). And then again: “And behold, I am COMING quickly” – coming to this earth – “and My reward is with Me” – Jesus will bring His reward with Him to this earth – “to give to each as his work is” (Rev. 22:12).

Jesus’ kingdom is a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly kingdom.

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Really? Now, that’s interesting. But God is supposed to be a Trinity. Shouldn’t Jesus’ bosom be the same as the Father’s bosom? And how could Moses’ bosom be the same as Abraham’s bosom when Abraham is regarded as the father of all the faithful?

The Father, Son/Jesus, and Holy Spirit all reside in heaven.

2 John 1:9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”

The Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity, but He is also the “Spirit of God” meaning He is the Spirit of both the Father and the Son. Genesis 1:2, John 7:39

Moses was in Abraham’s bosom, he did not have his own separate one. Moses was in the same bosom as Abraham.

BTW, how do you interpret this injunction by the apostle Peter, the supposed first pope of the Catholic Church - “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Pet. 1:20)?

The Catholic Church maintains and asserts her authority over/above all other persons’ interpretations if there are disagreements. She claims to be infallible in interpreting Scripture regarding faith and morals.

 

[Hope3]

But Jesus said He did not ascend to heaven yet on Sunday morning after His resurrection: “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father…” (John 20:17). How do you explain this?

He told her to stop literally hanging onto Him. He meant that He was going to be around for awhile on earth (40 days) before His formal ascension into heaven and so He had a job for her to do now for Him. John 20:17

The passage says the patriarchs died – in other words, the whole person died. There’s no mention of a spirit or soul or body. It’s the whole person that died and the whole person that did not receive the promises. Can you give me some scriptures that say man has a soul that is immortal which will depart from the body when it dies?

After Jesus died, He went to preach to the dead. [1 Peter 4:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+4:6&version=NKJV) Now, we know for a fact that their bodies are not living if they were “dead,” so He had to be preaching to their spirits. Since He went to preach to them, their spirits had to be both alive and conscious.

Where does it say in Scripture that eternal life in heaven was part of God’s promise?

The Old Testament calls heaven “rest” which is “eternal rest.”

Hebrews 4:1-3 “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “ So I swore in My wrath, ‘ They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”

 

[Hope3]

Cachonga,

You state that you are a former Catholic. Why did you leave? Just wondering…

 

[jlhargus]

But that passage does not say the righteous will enter heaven. We cannot even find the word “heaven” on that passage. Maybe I should I ask this first: Where in Scripture can we find heaven promised as the reward of the saved? Then, we go to that question, “How do you know that human beings were able to enter heaven after Jesus died?”

The passage says the patriarchs died – in other words, the whole person died. There’s no mention of a spirit or soul or body. It’s the whole person that died and the whole person that did not receive the promises.

JL: No one went to heaven before Christ assended. The spirits or disembodied souls of the OT just and unjust went to one of the chambers of hell, Lk16. The just to the chamber of paradise, Abraham’s Bosom, the unjust to a chamber of torment.

Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that HE ASCENDED, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?

Our Lord descended into Hell to bring good news, for the just spirits, when he preached to them, [1Pt4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.] CCC 634. [1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;] As far as prison, all in Sheol=hell are captives, even in Abraham’s Bosom, when one is marooned on a paradise island, he is a captive, he cannot leave that place, till rescued by his savior. When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the great CLOUD of witnesses.

The patriarchs did die, [Hb11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, that is, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their GOD: for he hath PREPARED for them A CITY.] There will be NEW HEAVENS (Universe) and EARTH. A heavenly universe and a heavenly earth, they will be transformed just as our resurrected bodies will be transformed into heavenly bodies. God will dwell with men in the New Heavenly Jerusalem. Heaven and creation will be UNITED as ONE.

[Hb11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, **RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: 40 GOD having PROVIDED some BETTER THING FOR US, that THEY WITHOUT US should not be made perfect. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are COMPASSED ABOUT with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]

[Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Sheol=Hades=Hell into heaven. Now MADE perfect by the blood of Christ, that cleanses and takes away sin, thru baptism, [Hb10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins].

[Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and **TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 AND TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.] We now see the spirits of just men MADE perfect now in heaven with our Lord, waiting the resurrection of their bodies at the end of time. The souls of the unjust are still in hell=sheol=hades, waiting the resurrection of their bodies. When BOTH their bodies AND soul will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, where their worm NEVER DIES.

 

[jlhargus]

Can you give me some scriptures that say man has a soul that is immortal which will depart from the body when it dies?

JL: Our Lord seems to be under the impression man’s nature is BOTH body AND soul, and the soul lives on after bodily death, as he clearly reveals

]Mt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who KILL THE BODY but **CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. Rather, BE AFRAID OF THE ONE WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH soul AND body in hell.] What happens to those living souls between bodily death and the resurrection when BOTH body AND soul can be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Destroy does not mean annihilation. Destroyed; as sin or substance abuse can literally destroy one’s life, soul and body, without the person being bodily dead and certainly not annihilated. It couldn’t be stated more clearly, man’s soul lives after bodily death, God alone has authority over the soul’s disposition or judgement.

[1Kgs 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, O Lord my God, let this child’s SOUL (NEPHESH) come into him again. 23 And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL (NEPHESH) of the child came into him again, and he revived.

[Gn35:18 And AS HER SOUL (NEPHESH) was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-o’ni; but his father called his name Benjamin.] [Strongs Concordance, CAPS and (nephesh), added]**

 

[panevino]

I apologize for allowing this to stray off topic. Lest I be accused of “avoiding the hard questions”, let me just point out that Tertullian became a Montanist, and “The Passion of the Holy Martyrs Perpetua and Felicity” has some very Montanists views in them (see here).

Without Scripture to support the claim, I would suggest that praying for the dead is nothing more than a tradition of men that crept into the church.

do u know when the practice was 1st objected to? Can u provide a quote . I’ll look around.

Just as a rhetorical question - were prayers for the dead in the medieval times that “thy spirit be in refreshment”, or were they concerned more with relieving the soul from the torments of purgatory? Refreshment and release are not the same thing!

those inscriptions in my last post are from the 200’s. My understanding is that medieval times started around 200 years later ie 5th century.

Also re the word refreshment- re read the perpetua qoute, the word is used associated clearly with a release. This is done in / before the same century of the inscription.

…

trying our works is not the same as going through purgatory, but that’s another topic for another thread.

As I said regardless of if u accept this is a part of the Process of purgatory, I still see a process after death that I see prayers my assist with.

1cor12:members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

 

[James224]

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

[25] "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

[27] "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

[29] "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

[30] " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

[31] "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Is this hell or purgatory? It sounds terrible like it is hell, yet Pope Benedict I believe recently implied it was purgatory.

The Rich man could be in Purgatory (or) in the Hell of the Damned. Here’s why: Abraham’s Bosom (aka Limbo of the Fathers), Purgatory and the Hell of the Damned could all have been in Hell. The Church has never defined where Purgatory is and St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine believed it was in the upper parts of hell. We know Abraham’s Bosom was there.

 

[Hope3]

The Rich man could be in Purgatory (or) in the Hell of the Damned. Here’s why: Abraham’s Bosom (aka Limbo of the Fathers), Purgatory and the Hell of the Damned could all have been in Hell. The Church has never defined where Purgatory is and St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine believed it was in the upper parts of hell. We know Abraham’s Bosom was there.

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention! I do believe that the rich man is in hell and not purgatory though.

I had learned that Hades (the abode of the dead) contains hell, limbo/AB, and purgatory. After Jesus’ death, He emptied Limbo and so now only hell and purgatory have people in them.

**Mailman asked me why I thought that Abraham’s bosom was a paradise-like place. **Perhaps I heard that it was like this at one time and then did not think any more about it.

Or, perhaps I saw a painting of Abraham and Lazarus and got my idea of Abraham’s bosom being a paradise-like place from it.

But, now that I am thinking about it and analyzing it, I no longer think that it was a paradise-like place. Instead, I think that it was a place without suffering (except for the suffering caused by longing to be with God and being deprived of the fulfillment of that longing).

Jesus really did not describe Abraham’s bosom/limbo in very much detail.

Luke 16:22-24 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

This description of the Limbo of the Patriarchs lacks any reference to it being a paradise-like place. However, the rich man could see that there was not any visible suffering in Limbo.

My unsubstantiated and erroneous belief about Limbo reminds me of another example of this type of thing:

Many people teach us that Paul was knocked off his horse by God in order to get his attention, but Scripture does not say that at all. Acts 9:1-5: "4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

Acts 22:6-8 "Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

No horse mentioned at all!

 

[Sir_Knight]

You are assuming that his motive for his brothrers’ salvation is pure in intention. 1 Corinthians 4:5 Why did Abraham refuse to help him? I certainly pray for the pour souls in order to help alleviate their sufferings. 1 Timothy 2:1 It seems to me then that the Rich Man is in hell since Abraham refused to take pity on him and help him.

Has every single one of your prayers always been answered?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Luke 16:22-23 - The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. (RSV emphasis mine). What part of “in Hades” indicates purgatory?

The early Church writers, which would include the gospel authors, referred to the abode of the dead and hades interchangeably. Case in point: in the creed we read that Jesus descended into “hell” and, as I already pointed out earlier, we know that is not possible because by definition, hell is the absence of God and as soon as Jesus entered hell, it would have stopped being hell. Thus, the Church Fathers MEANT that Jesus descended into the abode of the dead even though they said “hell”. Just as a lit candle can not be brought into pitch black room and the room remain pitch black, Jesus could not enter hell and it still remain hell. It would have ceased to be hell the instant Jesus entered. So, a correct translation of this passage is that the Rich Man was in the abode of the dead which could have been hell but it also could have been purgatory. We don’t know from that one phrase to know for sure either way. More information is needed and we see that as we move forward in the passage.

What is your scriptural support for this claim?

Scripture? None. But as Catholics, we do not depend solely on scripture to guide us in our faith but on Church teaching and the Catholic Church teaches that compassion is one of 32 virtures of man given to us as grace by the Holy Spirit.

But his “intercession” was directed to Abraham, not God; and it was not effective (if the prayers of people in purgatory as as effective, why should they even bother?).

First off, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is a parable which mean that it contains symbolic meanings. Just as “Kings”, “Lords”, “Master of the house” refer to God, so does Abraham in this instance because he is refered to as “Father” Abraham. I’ve heard more than one homily on this topic explaining that.

With regards to the request not being answered, are you saying that every single one of your prayers was grant in exactly the way that you wanted? If so, you are in the minority. If not, have you stopped praying because your petition wasn’t granted?

How can you be completely happy in heaven knowing that there are untold numbers of people who are in the lake of fire? I guess God takes care of that in His own way.

By not allowing them to be seen. Scripture tells us that they are COMPLETELY cut off. The Rich Man wasn’t. Not only could he see the saved and they could see him but he was able to communicate with them. Meaning that he was not completely cut-off and therefore had to be one of the saved but still under going his purification process.

Something else occurred to me as this topic has been discussed (it’s sort of related to the topic). Notice that Lazarus was taken by the angels directly to Abraham’s bosom (not purgatory). I would think this would make Lazarus a “catholic” saint, wouldn’t it? Or is Abraham’s bosom purgatory (probably bad news for Abraham)? Just something to think about.

“Abraham’s bosom” was a sort of limbo for those who died in God’s favor before the gates of heaven were opened by Christ’s sacrafice on the cross.

 

[Cachonga]

Robbinson:

So - we can share, I hope (I’m sure) our common love of Christ and our common prayer for unity in the body and that where disagreement lies, it is explored always in patience and in love. As Paul said, we will be known by how we “love oneanother”…

The main problem here is that if Rome has “infallibly” defined something, there is no room for discussion, regardless of any evidence that can be presented to disprove the claim.

 

[Cachonga]

jlhargus:

JL: Where did the souls of Jesus and the repentant thief go “THAT DAY” and the next three days, after bodily death on the cross?

Lazarus and the rich man, [Lk16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW HE IS COMFORTED, and THOU ART TORMENTED.] Lazarus was comforted in HELL=English, HADES=Greek, SHEOL=Hebrew in the CHAMBER OF PARADISE or Abraham’s Bosom. The rich man in Hell was in a chamber of torment.

Psalms 139:8 - If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! (RSV)
Psalms 86:13 - For great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (RSV)
John 1:3 - all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. (RSV)
Seems to me that God can reach even to the lowest “chamber” of Hell if He so desires.

Whether the rich man was in a chamber of purgatory or one of the chambers of the lost in Hell is open for theologians to discuss. Some theologians see the rich man in purgatory, since he is concerned with the salvation of his brothers, indicating LOVE, [Lk16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.]

Those in a chamber of the LOST in Hell would not care about anyone, but would HATE and want others to be in Hell, with them. Also some theologians think Christ visited ALL the chambers of Hell, from Abraham’s Bosom to the deepest chambers of Hell where the evil angels are chained.

Matt 5:46, 47 - For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? (RSV)
If evil men love those who love them in life, why is it hard to believe this would cease at death? Do you have any Scripture to support your claim that those separated from God (in hell) do not care about anyone else?

 

[Cachonga]

Hope3:

Not all the Jews believed in the bodily resurrection of the dead. (Sadducees did not.)

And Jesus proved them wrong (with Scriptures)!

Zech. 9:11 “As for you also,
Because of the blood of your covenant,
I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” (Purgatory)

Sorry, I don’t see this as purgatory. I believe this describes what Jesus (the King) will do for His people, and since it covers things in this world (such as verse 9, which reads “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ***, on a colt the foal of an ***.” (RSV), verse 12 – “Return to your stronghold, O prisoners of hope; today I declare that I will restore to you double.” (RSV), and other verses), I just don’t see how this particular verse can be applied to purgatory. Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”

There will be degrees of punishment in hell, just like there will be degrees of rewards in heaven (unless you think you’re going to receive the same reward as Peter, Paul, or Mary). Again, I don’t see purgatory here. Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

1 Cor. 15:29-30 “Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? [30] Why am I in peril every hour?” 1 Corinthians 9:27

This is an interesting verse. If it refers to purgatory, then it seems that people can be there who have not been baptized (otherwise, how can being baptized for a dead person be of any value). This will definitely require more research than I can do now, but I would assert that this does NOT indicate purgatory! Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

2 Tim. 1:16-18 “The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.” (Onesiphorus recently died.)

First, there are instances in Scripture of people praying and asking God to remember someone for what they did (good and bad). This is not an indication or purgatory. Second, how do you know Onesiphorus recently died? Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

1 Peter 3:19; “by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,” (purgatory)
1 Peter 4:6 "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Limbo/Abraham’s Bosom)

Jesus certainly preached to those who had died before Him. For those who rejected God (like the folks who lived before the flood), now they understood exactly who they had rejected; for those who accepted God (like King David, who should have been stoned for his adultery with Bathsheba and murder or Uriah), now he understood how it is that God was able to forgive him.

Phil. 2:10 “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,” (Purgatory, since Limbo is no longer inhabited)

So, every knee will bow in heaven (saints and angels), on earth (living humans and other animals), and under the earth (those in hell). If “under the earth” isn’t hell, where is it (or do you believe that those in hell won’t bow the knee to the creator of all things?)? If it’s purgatory, who will be there to bow once it is empty? Finally, would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 “13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

How is having your work tested “as by fire” the same thing as you personally going through purgatory? Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

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