The Rich Man and Lazarus...Hell or Purgatory?

[Cachonga]

<continued…>

Baruch 3:4 “O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.”

2 Mac.12:43-44 “and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. [44] For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Sirach 3:30 Water extinguishes a blazing fire: so almsgiving atones for sin.

Sirach 7:33 "Give graciously to all the living, and withhold not kindness from the dead.

I don’t see how these indicate any such place as purgatory (I do see where some of these references contradict accepted Scripture, but that’s another topic).

All the early Divine Liturgies/Masses had prayers for the dead.

I apologize for being unclear on this, but I don’t have a problem with praying for the dead when asking God to remember them for some kindness done (or for some evil performed). We have examples of this in Scripture. However, I find no examples in Scripture of praying for someone who has passed from this life that they might be released from their “cleansing” (or however you choose to word this). I find nothing in Scripture to indicate there is any such place as purgatory.

You state that you are a former Catholic. Why did you leave? Just wondering…

Since this is off topic, I won’t answer it here. However, since you asked, I will send you a PM.

 

[Cachonga]

panevino:

do u know when the practice was 1st objected to? Can u provide a quote . I’ll look around.

I would say that the Roman Catholic Church needs to prove that this is something that was taught by Jesus and the Apostles, otherwise, it seems obvious that this is a tradition of men that has crept in over time.

those inscriptions in my last post are from the 200’s. My understanding is that medieval times started around 200 years later ie 5th century.

Also re the word refreshment- re read the perpetua qoute, the word is used associated clearly with a release. This is done in / before the same century of the inscription.

I was under the impression that the medieval period began much later (closer to the end of the 1st millennium). I could be wrong, but I’ll check on that.

As far as citing the story of Perpetua, I see a great deal within the story to cause me to doubt it as truly Christian (as I pointed out before, this has some very Montanist views in it).

As I said regardless of if u accept this is a part of the Process of purgatory, I still see a process after death that I see prayers my assist with.

And I assert that if such a process was real, then it would be a very cruel god who would not to tell us plainly in Scripture. I do NOT believe the God of the Bible is anything but good!

1cor12:members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

And what does this have to do with purgatory?

 

[Cachonga]

Sir Knight:

The early Church writers, which would include the gospel authors, referred to the abode of the dead and hades interchangeably. Case in point: in the creed we read that Jesus descended into “hell” and, as I already pointed out earlier, we know that is not possible because by definition, hell is the absence of God and as soon as Jesus entered hell, it would have stopped being hell. Thus, the Church Fathers MEANT that Jesus descended into the abode of the dead even though they said “hell”. Just as a lit candle can not be brought into pitch black room and the room remain pitch black, Jesus could not enter hell and it still remain hell. It would have ceased to be hell the instant Jesus entered. So, a correct translation of this passage is that the Rich Man was in the abode of the dead which could have been hell but it also could have been purgatory. We don’t know from that one phrase to know for sure either way. More information is needed and we see that as we move forward in the passage.

Psalms 139:8 - If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! (RSV)
Psalms 86:13 - For great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (RSV)
John 1:3 - all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. (RSV)
Your analogy is flawed. Bring a candle into a pitch black room, and it’s still a room. Jesus came and preached to the people in hell, but He didn’t stay there (just like when you remove the candle from the pitch black room, it goes back to being a pitch black room).

Scripture? None. But as Catholics, we do not depend solely on scripture to guide us in our faith but on Church teaching and the Catholic Church teaches that compassion is one of 32 virtures of man given to us as grace by the Holy Spirit.

No scripture to support your claim? Hmmm, I wonder why I don’t believe it!

First off, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is a parable which mean that it contains symbolic meanings. Just as “Kings”, “Lords”, “Master of the house” refer to God, so does Abraham in this instance because he is refered to as “Father” Abraham. I’ve heard more than one homily on this topic explaining that.

If it was a parable, why did Jesus add “named Lazarus” when describing the beggar? This is not a parable, but a true story (or can you cite another parable where Jesus used a proper name like Lazarus)?

With regards to the request not being answered, are you saying that every single one of your prayers was grant in exactly the way that you wanted? If so, you are in the minority. If not, have you stopped praying because your petition wasn’t granted?

I don’t think I’ve ever had the kind of direct contact with God that you are attributing to the rich man. However, I would say that (as far as I can remember) God has answered every prayer I have made when prayed in complete faith (unfortunately, not something that happens all the time).

By not allowing them to be seen. Scripture tells us that they are COMPLETELY cut off. The Rich Man wasn’t. Not only could he see the saved and they could see him but he was able to communicate with them. Meaning that he was not completely cut-off and therefore had to be one of the saved but still under going his purification process.

Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

“Abraham’s bosom” was a sort of limbo for those who died in God’s favor before the gates of heaven were opened by Christ’s sacrafice on the cross.

And what was hades? And why no specific mention of purgatory?

 

[Hope3]

Has every single one of your prayers always been answered?

Yes.

Answered with either yes, or no, or wait.

 

[Hope3]

Sorry, I don’t see this as purgatory. I believe this describes what Jesus (the King) will do for His people, and since it covers things in this world (such as verse 9, which reads “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ***, on a colt the foal of an ***.” (RSV), verse 12 – “Return to your stronghold, O prisoners of hope; today I declare that I will restore to you double.” (RSV), and other verses), I just don’t see how this particular verse can be applied to purgatory. Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

The Church has not actually made very many infallible pronouncements.

In my opinion, this particular verse “O prisoners of hope” does not seem to refer to purgatory.

First, there are instances in Scripture of people praying and asking God to remember someone for what they did (good and bad). This is not an indication or purgatory. Second, how do you know Onesiphorus recently died? Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

2 Timothy 1:15-21 “This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.”

In my opinion, it seems to me that he has died. Paul is asking God’s mercy for him on Judgment Day.

So, every knee will bow in heaven (saints and angels), on earth (living humans and other animals), and under the earth (those in hell). If “under the earth” isn’t hell, where is it (or do you believe that those in hell won’t bow the knee to the creator of all things?)? If it’s purgatory, who will be there to bow once it is empty? Finally, would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

My opinion. I do not know whether God will command that the damned bow at the name of Jesus. Hades is under the earth and it was the abode of the dead until Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of heaven. Jewish teaching at first, but also Christian later.

How is having your work tested “as by fire” the same thing as you personally going through purgatory? Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

Our God is a consuming fire. All of our works are tested by fire [1 Peter 1:7](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+1:7&version=NKJV) after we die. Hebrews 12:28-29

The burning bush was not destroyed even though it was consumed by fire. “To destroy” in Scripture means “to condemn” rather than “to cease to exist.” [1 Corinthians 3:16-18](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+3:16-18&version=NKJV)

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 “Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” Matthew 7:18-20

Hebrews 12:23 “to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

In my opinion, these just men still had to be made perfect and this was accomplished in purgatory’s fire. He is saved, but his venial sins are purged by fire.

We are judged on Judgment Day by our works. If persons have done evil works and have not repented of them before death, then they are condemned to hellfire. John 5:28-29 However, if we have not done evil works that cause us to forfeit eternal life, we will be saved, but we will not enter heaven until we have been made perfect Revelation 3:2 and usually this is accomplished through the fire of purgatory. Our venial sins are purged by fire. 1 John 5:16-17

1 Peter 3:19-21 “by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[a] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

These souls were in prison/purgatory and Jesus went to preach to them there while His body was in the grave. These formerly disobedient souls are the souls of the persons who repented of their sins when they were drowning while Noah was safe on the ark. Colossians 3:25, Matthew 5:25-26

 

[Hope3]

<continued…>

I don’t see how these indicate any such place as purgatory (I do see where some of these references contradict accepted Scripture, but that’s another topic).

God never gave His authority to Protestants to remove 7 books from the OT Scripture Canon.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Psalms 139:8 - If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! (RSV)
Psalms 86:13 - For great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (RSV)
John 1:3 - all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. (RSV)
Your analogy is flawed. Bring a candle into a pitch black room, and it’s still a room. Jesus came and preached to the people in hell, but He didn’t stay there (just like when you remove the candle from the pitch black room, it goes back to being a pitch black room).

Hell is the absence of God. If Jesus were to enter hell, it would cease to be hell because God was present. There is no getting around that. Additionally, why would Jesus preach to those forever lost? What purpose would it serve? Wouldn’t it make more sense for Him to appear to those in purgatory who were already saved but still being purified to let them know that they would eventually be with Him in heaven?

No scripture to support your claim? Hmmm, I wonder why I don’t believe it!

because nowhere in scripture does it say that we are to base our faith solely on scripture and it specifically says that not everything that Jesus said and did were to be found within it’s pages.

If it was a parable, why did Jesus add “named Lazarus” when describing the beggar? This is not a parable, but a true story (or can you cite another parable where Jesus used a proper name like Lazarus)?

Why didn’t Jesus name the rich man if it were a true story? Perhaps it is because the Rich Man could have been anyone who did not take care of those less fortunate – thus, making it a parable!

I don’t think I’ve ever had the kind of direct contact with God that you are attributing to the rich man.

I see by your profile that you are a former Catholic. Perhaps if you would have stayed within the Church, you WOULD HAVE heard it.

However, I would say that (as far as I can remember) God has answered every prayer I have made when prayed in complete faith (unfortunately, not something that happens all the time).

Answered in the affirmative? If so, then you are in the minority.

Would this be an “official” definition from the church, or is it just someone’s opinion?

It is a Catholic teaching that those in hell are forever lost to us. If we can communicate with somebody, we continue to have interaction with them and they are not lost to us. The Rich Man was communicating with Abraham.

And what was hades? And why no specific mention of purgatory?

Why no mention of the Holy Trinity?

 

[panevino]

I would say that the Roman Catholic Church needs to prove that this is something that was taught by Jesus and the Apostles, otherwise, it seems obvious that this is a tradition of men that has crept in over time.

I think I have shown that prayers for departed are documented to be offered by Christians as early as at least 170

So lets say in the year 170 the generation of people that are 80yo (Gen A) would of learnt their faith at ~30yo (say 120ad)- around time St ignatius was martyred in Rome.

In 120ad the grandfathers of Gen A (lets say 80yo) were also 30yo when they picked up the faith - thats the year 70ad (while St John was still alive)

So generation A likely had family members in thier younger years (ie grandparents) who were alive in the mid to late 1st century.

okay and then there are those jews that would of converted to christianity that held the (BC) book of Macc and practices of praying for the departed.

I find it odd that this practice of praying for the departed which is seen pretty clearly in the late 100’s/early 200’s was not objected to by the early church fathers, particularly given thiere short separation from the 1st century and family ties to that century. I assume some of them which were ex-jews (that had the practice) that walked into christianity would of sparked some debate. I mean what if a member of thier family dies, surely they would of sparked a debate on the topic given thier heritage and supposed conflict in belief with the new faith. but from what i can see there was no debate just some early church fathers and laity practicing prayers for the departed.

i am by no means an expert so I may of missed this debate in the early church.
also i saw in some of your ealier posts that you are not necessarily against a prayer for the departed but more unconvinced about the prayers assisting the departed in a state of purgation - am i right?

I was under the impression that the medieval period began much later (closer to the end of the 1st millennium). I could be wrong, but I’ll check on that.

sure you may be right. i only brought in response to you mentioning it, as i wanted it to be clear that the tombstone incriptions were created well before the medieval age (ie: in the 200’s)

As far as citing the story of Perpetua, I see a great deal within the story to cause me to doubt it as truly Christian (as I pointed out before, this has some very Montanist views in it).

ok - i understand they were martyred in Carthage, which is where Tertullian/cyprian were.

And I assert that if such a process was real, then it would be a very cruel god who would not to tell us plainly in Scripture. I do NOT believe the God of the Bible is anything but good!

obviously the process of 1cor3:15 is real, regardless of whether any of think it is part of the purgation pointed to under the doctrine of purgatory.

and i still think it is something worth sending a prayer up for.

And what does this have to do with purgatory?

ah you know - the whole body of christ is not just on earth but also in heaven thing,
ie: church militant(on earth), expectant (ie entering heaven) & triumphant (heaven)

 

[Mailman]

Since Jesus’ spirit went to preach to the dead during the time that His body was in the grave awaiting resurrection, then they had to be conscious in order to hear Him.

My question was this: Let’s assume you do not know anything about what people believe regarding death and what happens in the grave, would you still say that Ecc. 9:10 does not say that in the grave there is no mental activity?

Eccl. 9:10 - “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [sheol] whither thou goest.”

As for Jesus preaching to the dead while He was dead, how is that possible when Jesus was dead? Isn’t death the absence of life? If Jesus went preaching to the dead when He was supposed to be dead and buried, then Jesus didn’t die and we are yet in our sins.

1 Peter 4:6 “For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

You need to check the context to understand that passage.

 

[Mailman]

“Destroyed” means “eternal condemnation.” It does not mean that their bodies and their souls/spirits will no longer exist. Immortal bodies and immortal souls/spirits cannot ever cease to exist and this is shown by the story about the rich man in hell.

The parable does not show that.

He is continually tormented by fire and this fire would consume him under normal circumstances, yet he still continues to exist in this hell despite the flames of the fire surrounding him.

So, what you are saying is that the fire that God will use for the wicked will not consume material things? What will it consume, if anything?

How do you explain this verse from the OT: “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as fat of the lambs: they shall CONSUME; into smoke shall they CONSUME AWAY” (Ps. 37:20).

This is supported by other Scriptures, as in Mal. 4:1-3: “For, behold, the day cometh” – the Day of Judgment, a future time – “that shall burn as an oven…” – the Gehenna hell fire – “and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up [they shall be consumed], saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” We all know that dead bodies placed in crematoriums are burned up, or consumed, until what is left of them are ashes. This is exactly how the prophet Malachi describes what will happen to the wicked when they are burned in the fire that “shall burn as an oven.” He continues, “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day [the Day of Judgment] that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”

An example of this type of non-consuming fire is the burning bush incident. Exodus 3:2

That fire was used to show God’s presence on that particular place. Saying it is the same type of fire that God will use for the wicked is to make an unfounded assumption.

 

[Mailman]

The Inspired Scriptures which make up the Catholic Bible Canons were decided by divine authority and this was accomplished through the leaders of the Catholic Church at early Catholic Church Councils. These early church leaders “cast lots” under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to determine which of the proposed writings were truly inspired and which ones were not.

“…decided by divine revelation… under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…” That’s something that can never be proven and a claim anyone or any church can make. Bringing it up is useless, not to mention it’s off topic. Why don’t we just talk about the issues being taken up?

Some of New Testament Scripture is prefigured in Old Testament Scripture. However, NT Scripture came about as supplements to the apostles’ and disciples’ oral teaching. NT Scripture was never meant to replace the oral teaching of the Church. Jesus corrects some of their misconceptions which derived from either their misinterpretation of the OT Scriptures or their lack of knowledge/understanding about them. Mark 12:22-27, Matthew 16:21-23 , John 12:15-16 Jesus is Lord, even of the Sabbath, and He can make any changes that He desires in His New Covenant. Luke 6:1-5

The issue was on the truthfulness of that OT Scripture. You said “the early OT persons were not given enough revelation from God to understand all things,” implying that the Ecclesiastes passage does not contain the truth. What I was trying to say was that you are wrong because Scripture is true forever. Eccl. 9:10 tells us what it is like to be in sheol/hades. The truth given there stands forever.

I merely repeat the doctrine of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church’s 2000 year old doctrine. I do not make new doctrine. It does not ever change.

Thank you for the candid response. I think you’re wrong in saying your church’s doctrines don’t ever change.

Just to name two – Hasn’t the doctrine on Limbo been changed? What about the doctrine of a geocentric world, wasn’t that changed, too?

From “Unveiling the Universe” by Norton Wagner, p. 33:

"The nearly 100 years of Protestantism had been marred with cruel wars between the two religions, and the leaders of the Roman Church were resolved to stamp out any new innovations that would have a tendency to undermine the faith that had been taught for 1600 years. Their undeviating belief was that Holy Scripture taught a stationary Earth and a moving Sun… . And for Galileo to teach the reverse was rank heresy, of which the Holy See must take notice…

“Late in 1615 Galileo again returned to Rome in a supreme endeavor to convince the Church authorities of the truth of the Heliocentric system, as proved by his telescope. But all the arguments and facts he could advance fell upon deaf ears, for Cardinal Bellarmine and Pope Paul V had decided that the doctrine of a stationary Sun and a moving Earth was not only unscriptural, but constituted one of the gravest perils to the Catholic religion.”

Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill prophecy. Ezekiel 20:49, Psalm 78:2, Matthew 13:34-35

Jesus spoke in parables thus fulfilling prophecy.

Do you disagree with me that Jesus spoke in parables so that the people won’t understand what He was teaching?

There is only one Day of Judgment, not two. John 5:26-29, Matthew 12:36

I don’t recall ever saying there is more than one day of judgment. I spoke about a “first resurrection” and a “second resurrection” not a first judgment and a second judgment. Isn’t your church the one teaching about two days of judgment – a “particular” judgment and a “general” judgment?

 

[Mailman]

John 14:2-3 “In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

What is the Father’s house? When in the Temple, Jesus said: “Make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise” (John 2:16). Here, we find a simple Bible definition of the Father’s house. The Temple at Jerusalem was an earthly type (Heb. 8:5) of the Father’s house in heaven. Luke 19:46 and Isa. 56:7 also quote the Lord as saying of the Temple: “My house is a house of prayer…” So the Temple at Jerusalem in Christ’s day was a type of the Father’s house in heaven. And the Temple did have many “mansions” or rooms and chambers in it!

In Jer. 35:2 we read this: “Speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord INTO ONE OF THE CHAMBERS.” In verse 4 we notice that different chambers were for persons of different rank. Hanan, a man of God, had his chamber “by the chamber of the princes, which was ABOVE the chamber of… the keeper of the door.”

John 14:2-3 says the “Father’s house” is being prepared in heaven. It does not say it is heaven. Heaven is never said to have “mansions.” The ancient tabernacle built under Moses had two compartments, the inner, called the Holy of Holies, being an exact picture of the throne of God – of heaven itself. It had no mansions. Read Hebrews 8:5 and 9:1-7 to see exactly what the pattern of heaven is like.

Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you.” Jesus did go to heaven, to the right hand of the Father, where He now acts as our “High Priest” (Heb. 9:11). A part of the function of the office of High Priest is the preparation of a place for the saints of God as Jesus promised the disciples. This preparation is occurring IN heaven.

But what is being prepared? There are two Scriptures which tell us what is being prepared. The first is Matthew 25:34. Here Christ said: “Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you from the foundation of the world.” The other text is Rev. 21:2, “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, PREPARED as a bride adorned for her husband.”

So, the only places that are being prepared are the Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem. Since it is the Kingdom and the Holy City that are finally prepared for us, then what Jesus is preparing for us must be individual positions in the Kingdom and in the new city, Jerusalem. Just as the Temple had rooms which serve as offices for the various residents holding different ranks, in the same way each one of us will have his own personal place or office in the holy City, in accordance with how well we use the talents God has given us in this life. This Holy City, or New Jerusalem, will be “COMING DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN” – coming down to this earth from heaven.

No merely human person had ascended into heaven before Jesus’ death:

John 3:13 “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.”

What the passage ONLY says is that no man has gone to heaven, period. It does not say no one has gone to heaven before Jesus’ death. I hope you agree with me on that.

 

[Mailman]

The New Jerusalem is a “part” of the “heaven” of God.

I said the Paradise of God is NOT IN HEAVEN. Do you agree with me that it is not in heaven?

I also showed you where the New Jerusalem will be located. Do you believe it will be here on earth like I said? If not, why not?

Jesus’ kingdom is a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly kingdom.

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Yes, Jesus’ Kingdom is a heavenly Kingdom. It is “heavenly” because it is a kingdom from heaven (a kingdom ruled by God from heaven) and is composed of heavenly beings – immortal spirit beings like the angels.

Jesus’ kingdom is “not of this world” – this system. It is not of this age. It is for the world to come (Heb. 2:5). This present world is ruled by Satan (Luke 4:5-6), not Christ. He is the god of this present evil world (2 Cor. 4:4). This is the age of mortal human rule guided by Satan’s influence.

“And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END COME,” said Jesus (Mat. 24:14). The end of what? This AGE, this world order – after which JESUS WILL COME AGAIN! (Mat. 24:3.)

CHRIST DID NOT return to found the Kingdom in the days of the apostles. Instead, He ordered the gospel preached to PREPARE the world for His return, when He will set up His Kingdom and rule this world “with a rod of iron.” That’s what the Bible plainly reveals.

The Father, Son/Jesus, and Holy Spirit all reside in heaven.

2 John 1:9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”

The Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity, but He is also the “Spirit of God” meaning He is the Spirit of both the Father and the Son. Genesis 1:2, John 7:39

You said: “Jesus’ bosom means to carry His sheep/lambs in His arms. Father’s bosom is Paradise of God in heaven.”

So what is it? Is Jesus’ bosom the same as the Father’s bosom?

Moses was in Abraham’s bosom, he did not have his own separate one. Moses was in the same bosom as Abraham.

Num. 11:12 - Have I [Moses] conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy [Moses’] bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

Do you mean that on the passage above, Moses’ bosom means Abraham’s bosom?

The Catholic Church maintains and asserts her authority over/above all other persons’ interpretations if there are disagreements. She claims to be infallible in interpreting Scripture regarding faith and morals.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Mailman]

He told her to stop literally hanging onto Him. He meant that He was going to be around for awhile on earth (40 days) before His formal ascension into heaven and so He had a job for her to do now for Him. John 20:17

So, what is it, did Jesus go to heaven that day He died to unlock the gates or did He not?

After Jesus died, He went to preach to the dead. [1 Peter 4:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+4:6&version=NKJV) Now, we know for a fact that their bodies are not living if they were “dead,” so He had to be preaching to their spirits. Since He went to preach to them, their spirits had to be both alive and conscious.

You need to look at the context (v. 1-4) to properly understand that passage.

The Old Testament calls heaven “rest” which is “eternal rest.”

Hebrews 4:1-3 “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “ So I swore in My wrath, ‘ They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”

It says nothing about heaven being called “rest.” If you do not have a preconceived notion that heaven is where the saved will go, you can never interpret “His rest” as being heaven on that passage.

If “His rest” is a place and we are to take the OT definition for it, here is one Scripture that says plainly and clearly what it is: “For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it” (Ps. 132:13-14).

 

[Mailman]

JL: Where did the souls of Jesus and the repentant thief go “THAT DAY” and the next three days, after bodily death on the cross?

They didn’t go anywhere because both Jesus and the repentant thief were dead.

Lazarus and the rich man, [Lk16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW HE IS COMFORTED, and THOU ART TORMENTED.] Lazarus was comforted in HELL=English, HADES=Greek, SHEOL=Hebrew in the CHAMBER OF PARADISE or Abraham’s Bosom. The rich man in Hell was in a chamber of torment.

How about this? Lazarus was comforted because he had entered the Kingdom of God. As Jesus had said, “Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted [in the Kingdom]” (Mat. 5:4).

Lazarus was pictured as having been taken into Abraham’s bosom * because Lazarus, through faith in Christ, had become a child of Abraham: “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7). Having become a child of Abraham, Lazarus inherited God’s promise to Abraham of salvation thru Christ: “And if you be Christ’s, then are you the seed [child] of Abraham, heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29).

As for the rich man, he was in his grave [Greek, hades] when he opened his eyes in a resurrection and saw the fire nearby. Daniel speaks of the resurrection: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth [sleep in their graves – buried – in hades, just like the rich man], shall awake [lift up their eyes], some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2).

But when did this rich man, in his grave, lift up his eyes? Jesus said: “The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves [including the rich man] shall hear his voice, and shall come forth [lift their eyes and stand up]; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [including the rich man], unto the resurrection of damnation [judgment]” (John 5:28-29). This is speaking about two different, separate resurrections. In 1 Cor. 15:22-24, we read that all are to be resurrected – but in an order of different resurrections – Christ Himself, nearly 2,000 years ago; afterward, in a different resurrection, “they that are Christ’s AT HIS COMING,” – NOT before – and then “cometh the end” – indicating the resurrection of the unjust later.

In Rev. 20:4 we read of the resurrection of those in Christ AT HIS COMING. But Rev. 20:5 says: “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” So the resurrection of the rich man and all the unjust or unsaved will take place AFTER the millennium. The parable does not say when the rich man opened his eyes [in a resurrection] but other scriptures reveal that it will not be until after the millennium.

The rich man said the flame was “tormenting” him. This word “tormented,” used in verses 24 and 25 is translated from the Greek word odunamai. This is defined in any Greek-English lexicon as “to cause pain, distress; pain of body, but also, pain of mind; grief, distress.”

He was “tormented” – in mental anguish – knowing he was going to be cast into the fire. The rich man was so horrified with fear about his fate that his mouth went dry. In this state of mental agony, he cried to Abraham begging that he send Lazarus “that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, AND COOL MY TONGUE…” Yes, cool his tongue, not his whole body. Why? Obviously because he was not yet being burned. He was in a condition of weeping and gnashing of teeth!

Whether the rich man was in a chamber of purgatory or one of the chambers of the lost in Hell is open for theologians to discuss…

In other words, the Catholic Church does not know. It remains “open for discussion” because no one [not even the CC] can give any conclusive evidence to support either theory. This only shows that neither theory could be right.*

 

[Hope3]

My question was this: Let’s assume you do not know anything about what people believe regarding death and what happens in the grave, would you still say that Ecc. 9:10 does not say that in the grave there is no mental activity.

Eccl. 9:10 - “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [sheol] whither thou goest.”?

Yes, I would agree with you that this is what the writer of ECCL actually believed.

The OT writers wrote what they themselves “understood.” This ECCL writer did not understand what actually happens to people after their bodies die. The writer of ECCL did not understand that people’s spirits/souls are still alive and conscious after death. Since Jesus specifically told His listeners about what happened to the rich man and Lazarus after their bodily deaths, I will believe Him rather than the writer of ECCL 9:10. God revealed Himself to humanity slowly over the course of thousands of years.

As for Jesus preaching to the dead while He was dead, how is that possible when Jesus was dead? Isn’t death the absence of life? If Jesus went preaching to the dead when He was supposed to be dead and buried, then Jesus didn’t die and we are yet in our sins.

Jesus’ body was dead, but not His soul/spirit. His Spirit went to preach to the “spirits” in prison/purgatory [1 Peter 3:18-20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+3:18-20&version=NKJV) and also to the spirits in Abraham’s bosom. [1 Peter 4:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+4:6&version=NKJV)

Even though Jesus received His glorified body when He rose from the dead, the rest of us here on earth will not receive ours until the time of His Second Coming. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The “dead” people (bodily death only, not spiritual death) probably do not receive their immortal bodies until immediately before they come back to earth with Jesus and His angels to meet “in the air” His elect people who are still alive in the body on earth. [1 Corinthians 15:51-53](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+15:51-53&version=NKJV)

“Sleep” means “bodily” death. It does not mean that “dead” peoples’ spirits are actually sleeping like we sleep at night. The spirits of the dead are always conscious of what is going on. Jesus was a Spirit for eternity before He became Man and received His human body. The angels and demons are spirits only and they are conscious all the time. Humans have an added dimension of a human body to go along with their immortal souls/spirits and we receive our immortal souls/spirits at the time of conception.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Soul, body, and spirit are what man is comprised. The “soul” of man is immortal and contains man’s heart/mind/understanding and will. “Spirit” in this Scripture is speaking of the “understanding” component of the immortal soul," and “soul” pertains to the “will” component of the immortal soul. “Body” is our flesh and blood that is the home of our soul and spirit. Soul (“will” as in “free will”) and spirit (understanding) are both components of the immortal Soul.

Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

“Destroy” means “eternal condemnation” in this verse and “soul” means both the “will” and the “understanding” of man’s immortal soul.

Sometimes the “soul” of man is also called the “spirit” of man:

1 Corinthians 6:20 “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.”

“Spirit” in this case means both the will and the understanding which are the two parts of the immortal soul. Romans 6:17-19 Man uses his will to make his choice to either serve God or else to serve Satan and/or his own flesh.

Sometimes Scripture is very confusing.

 

[Hope3]

Th
…That fire was used to show God’s presence on that particular place. Saying it is the same type of fire that God will use for the wicked is to make an unfounded assumption.
…
So, what you are saying is that the fire that God will use for the wicked will not consume material things? What will it consume, if anything?

Hellfire “consumes” if what you mean is that it envelops the evil person. The bush was enveloped by fire yet it was not made non-existent. When the fire ceased, the bush still remained as it was before it was “on fire.” Exodus 3:1-4 Hellfire does not consume (make non-existent), it torments with heat/pain, flames/pain, and smoke/pain.

How do you explain this verse from the OT: “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as fat of the lambs: they shall CONSUME; into smoke shall they CONSUME AWAY” (Ps. 37:20).

The OT writers did not have God’s full revelation. They wrote what they themselves understood to be true. They are comparing the punishment of evil mankind to what happens to the animals that are sacrificed on the altar. Exodus 29:12-14

This is supported by other Scriptures, as in Mal. 4:1-3: “For, behold, the day cometh” – the Day of Judgment, a future time – “that shall burn as an oven…” – the Gehenna hell fire – “and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up [they shall be consumed], saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” We all know that dead bodies placed in crematoriums are burned up, or consumed, until what is left of them are ashes. This is exactly how the prophet Malachi describes what will happen to the wicked when they are burned in the fire that “shall burn as an oven.” He continues, “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day [the Day of Judgment] that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Poetic description of Judgment Day. It is not to be taken literally word for word. Mortal bodies are destroyed, but immortal resurrection bodies are never destroyed. Both the righteous and the unrighteous will receive immortal bodies. The unrighteous’ bodies will never be consumed by hellfire; they will instead be eternally tormented by it. Revelation 20:10, Revelation 14:9-11

It is best to stay in the NT instead of the OT when trying to figure out these types of things.

John 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

 

[Hope3]

“…decided by divine revelation… under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…” That’s something that can never be proven and a claim anyone or any church can make. Bringing it up is useless, not to mention it’s off topic. …

A topic for another thread.

The issue was on the truthfulness of that OT Scripture. You said “the early OT persons were not given enough revelation from God to understand all things,” implying that the Ecclesiastes passage does not contain the truth. What I was trying to say was that you are wrong because Scripture is true forever. Eccl. 9:10 tells us what it is like to be in sheol/hades. The truth given there stands forever.

Today, we know scientifically, that the sun does not actually rise even though Scripture states that it did. Genesis 19:23, Judges 9:33

The earth is a globe so it has no “ends.” Psalm 2:8

Psalm 104:5 “You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,”

The earth moves around the sun.

Just to name two – Hasn’t the doctrine on Limbo been changed? What about the doctrine of a geocentric world, wasn’t that changed, too?

Limbo “theory” was never made a doctrine. “Heliocentric” universe as “theory” was not “the” problem.

From “Unveiling the Universe” by Norton Wagner, p. 33: "The nearly 100 years of Protestantism had been marred with cruel wars between the two religions, and the leaders of the Roman Church were resolved to stamp out any new innovations that would have a tendency to undermine the faith that had been taught for 1600 years. Their undeviating belief was that Holy Scripture taught a stationary Earth and a moving Sun… . And for Galileo to teach the reverse was rank heresy, of which the Holy See must take notice…

“Late in 1615 Galileo again returned to Rome in a supreme endeavor to convince the Church authorities of the truth of the Heliocentric system, as proved by his telescope. But all the arguments and facts he could advance fell upon deaf ears, for Cardinal Bellarmine and Pope Paul V had decided that the doctrine of a stationary Sun and a moving Earth was not only unscriptural, but constituted one of the gravest perils to the Catholic religion.”

This is this man’s opinion of what transpired. The truth about all of this is more complicated than what is written in these two paragraphs.

Do you disagree with me that Jesus spoke in parables so that the people won’t understand what He was teaching?

Yes.

Jesus did not speak in parables with the express intention that some people would not be able to understand Him.

Mat.13:10-12 “And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

Mark 4:10-13 "But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

This is a Semitic way of speaking. God knew who would believe in Jesus’ teaching and who would not. Isaiah 6:9, 10

Jesus still had to explain the parables to His apostles/disciples in order for them to understand them.

The Pharisees perceived that Jesus was speaking about them.

Matthew 21:43-46 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.”

Mark 4:33-34 “And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it. 34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.”

I don’t recall ever saying there is more than one day of judgment. I spoke about a “first resurrection” and a “second resurrection” not a first judgment and a second judgment. Isn’t your church the one teaching about two days of judgment – a “particular” judgment and a “general” judgment?

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you.

The particular judgment is when a persons meets Jesus at the instant of death. He will go immediately to either heaven, purgatory, or hell. Hebrews 9:27

The general judgment is on the last day, the Day of Jesus’ Second Coming and it is when we will all see how well all of us cooperated with God’s salvation plan during the whole history of mankind. All of us sheep or goats are judged by Jesus who sits on the great white throne. Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Hope3]

So, the only places that are being prepared are the Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem. Since it is the Kingdom and the Holy City that are finally prepared for us, then what Jesus is preparing for us must be individual positions in the Kingdom and in the new city, Jerusalem. Just as the Temple had rooms which serve as offices for the various residents holding different ranks, in the same way each one of us will have his own personal place or office in the holy City, in accordance with how well we use the talents God has given us in this life. This Holy City, or New Jerusalem, will be “COMING DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN” – coming down to this earth from heaven. .

The “New Jerusalem” depicted in the Book of Revelation is symbolic for the spiritual aspects of Jesus’ post-Resurrection Church (in heaven). Hebrews 12:18-24 Notice that the writer of Hebrews is speaking of the Church which is also the new Jerusalem and the new Mt. Zion **on earth **(“you have come”).

The “physical” kingdom of God is in heaven.

Matthew 20:20-24 "Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
21 And He said to her, “What do you wish?”
She said to Him, **“Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom.” **
22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
They said to Him, “We are able.”
23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; **but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.” **
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers.

Where is Jesus right now? Acts 7:55, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 10:12

Jesus stated that He was going to prepare a place for them in His Father’s house and His Father’s house is in heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” NIV

What the passage ONLY says is that no man has gone to heaven, period. It does not say no one has gone to heaven before Jesus’ death. I hope you agree with me on that

No human had ever ascended into heaven before Jesus’ death. The “Word” descended from heaven in order to be born of a virgin as “Jesus, the Word Incarnate.”

Those words of Scripture were spoken before Jesus’ death and resurrection. The angels always could travel between heaven and earth. Genesis 28:12, Matthew 18:10

 

[Hope3]

I said the Paradise of God is NOT IN HEAVEN. Do you agree with me that it is not in heaven?

No, I do not agree. The Paradise of God is in heaven.

Yes, Jesus’ Kingdom is a heavenly Kingdom. It is “heavenly” because it is a kingdom from heaven (a kingdom ruled by God from heaven) and is composed of heavenly beings – immortal spirit beings like the angels.

Immortal spirits of human beings are there now with God in heaven (Paradise).

Jesus’ kingdom is “not of this world” – this system. It is not of this age. It is for the world to come (Heb. 2:5). This present world is ruled by Satan (Luke 4:5-6), not Christ. He is the god of this present evil world (2 Cor. 4:4). This is the age of mortal human rule guided by Satan’s influence.

“And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END COME,” said Jesus (Mat. 24:14). The end of what? This AGE, this world order – after which JESUS WILL COME AGAIN! (Mat. 24:3.)

Jesus’ kingdom in this world (earth) is within the hearts and minds and souls of His followers. Luke 17:21

CHRIST DID NOT return to found the Kingdom in the days of the apostles. Instead, He ordered the gospel preached to PREPARE the world for His return, when He will set up His Kingdom and rule this world “with a rod of iron.” That’s what the Bible plainly reveals.

Jesus never returns to earth to rule in Israel in Jerusalem. He only rules in the heavenly Jerusalem which is His Church in heaven.

You said: “Jesus’ bosom means to carry His sheep/lambs in His arms. Father’s bosom is Paradise of God in heaven.”

So what is it? Is Jesus’ bosom the same as the Father’s bosom?

Yes. [2 John 1:9](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 John+1:9&version=NKJV)

Num. 11:12 - Have I [Moses] conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy [Moses’] bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

Do you mean that on the passage above, Moses’ bosom means Abraham’s bosom?

Yes, Moses is a descendant of Moses.