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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Wrong. The rich man was in hell.
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esmac
Guest
Well…no. You have your opinion and I have mine.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Well why would he warn his brothers? Cause he was in hell!
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ericc
Guest
The rich man is in hell. If it is purgatory, he can wait it out. Eventually he would be able to cross over. Purgatory has never been denoted as a chasm, but as a temporary cleansing stop.
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ericc
Guest
Agreed. I’d want my brothers in Purgatory. I won’t warn but entice them over to Purgatory.
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Gorgias
Guest
Exactly. He wants to warn them, so they’ll repent! Repenting doesn’t keep you out of purgatory… it keeps you out of hell! :sad_yes:
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esmac
Guest
Ignatius NT Study Bible:
*For all his worldly comforts, the rich man’s callousness toward the poor plunged him into ruin (16:23).
*Abraham’s bosom - temporary realm within Hades where the righteous souls of the OT covenant era waited patiently for Christ to open the gates of heaven (Eph 4:8-10).
CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul – a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
*For all his worldly comforts, the rich man’s callousness toward the poor plunged him into ruin (16:23).
*Abraham’s bosom - temporary realm within Hades where the righteous souls of the OT covenant era waited patiently for Christ to open the gates of heaven (Eph 4:8-10).
- Hades - the netherworld or realm of the dead. It refers to a waiting place where the deceased souls of the wicked are detained until the Last Judgment (Rev 20:13). Here it stands opposite Abraham’s presence and is a place where sinners languish in the grip of torment (Lk 16:24; Mt 11:23). It is separated from the abode of the righteous by a permanent, unbridgeable gulf that permits no traffic to pass between them. (Lk 16:26) (CCC 633, 1021).
CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul – a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
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Gorgias
Guest
esmac,
Given all the quotes in your post, let me ask you a question that’s phrased just a little differently than the original query of this thread:
What is the rich man’s eternal destiny – heaven or hell?
Given all the quotes in your post, let me ask you a question that’s phrased just a little differently than the original query of this thread:
What is the rich man’s eternal destiny – heaven or hell?
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esmac
Guest
From Revelation:
But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death. 21:8
Which one is the rich man? Unfaithful? An idol worshiper of riches? What about his brothers? Were they all a bunch of dogs?
Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates.
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Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit. Rev 22:14-15
Was he one of the “inhabitants of the earth”? There’s a lot of unknown with the parable.
According to the Bible commentary provided in my previous post it sounds like the rich man is doomed. I don’t like the idea of judging where he should go.
I am concerned very much about my own judgement.
But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death. 21:8
Which one is the rich man? Unfaithful? An idol worshiper of riches? What about his brothers? Were they all a bunch of dogs?
Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates.
15
Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit. Rev 22:14-15
Was he one of the “inhabitants of the earth”? There’s a lot of unknown with the parable.
According to the Bible commentary provided in my previous post it sounds like the rich man is doomed. I don’t like the idea of judging where he should go.
I am concerned very much about my own judgement.
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Gorgias
Guest
Revelation hadn’t been written yet. Jesus couldn’t have been referring to it, in the story that he was telling the crowd.
In any case, that passage isn’t making an exhaustive list of sinners, is it? So, whereas all of those are destined for the “burning pool”, it doesn’t follow that only they will be there.
Don’t be concerned about ‘passing judgment’: you’re not judging a real person, just analyzing a character in a story that Jesus told.
And according to you? Reading the parable, what does it seem to you that the rich man’s eternal destiny is? What is Jesus saying about his eternal destiny?
Another way of asking this question: Is Jesus contrasting the eternal destinies of the two men? Since they lived such different lives on earth, is He saying that the two have the same destination in eternity? Or is He saying that they have distinct eternal destinations? If they’re different, then what’s the destination that Lazarus is heading for – and what does that say about where the rich man is?
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esmac
Guest
I was initially taught by an elderly lady guest speaker in RCIA that the rich man was in purgatory; however, the Ignatius NT Study Bible commentary basically says indirectly – as I interpret it – that the rich man is in some kind of holding tank before he is sentenced to the eternal doom of the Netherworld on the Last Day.
I am a champion of Jesus’ Divine Mercy. I believe that Jesus’ mercy is an ocean of grace and this rich man’s sins (his negligence and selfishness) is just a drop in the bucket, so to speak.
Per your inquiry, the final sentence will be just, and the rich man won’t leave his state of condemnation until “he has paid the last penny” for his unrepentant sins, but, in my opinion, it ultimately depends on whether the rich man accepts or rejects Jesus as his Lord and savior. God weighs the heart (see proverbs) and God knows whether the rich man truly believes in Him. But the way I read the parable, it looks like the rich man chooses to only serve himself, even while in flames, thus rejecting the Lord and His precepts. The rich man has no desire from what I read to be in union with the Lord, so he might be eternally condemned to the netherworld, the lake of fire (Rev 20:25), but only God knows for sure.
I find the parable to be a frightening reminder of the importance of serving the Lord, making him the center of our day and life and not something else (which would be idolatry).
I am a champion of Jesus’ Divine Mercy. I believe that Jesus’ mercy is an ocean of grace and this rich man’s sins (his negligence and selfishness) is just a drop in the bucket, so to speak.
Per your inquiry, the final sentence will be just, and the rich man won’t leave his state of condemnation until “he has paid the last penny” for his unrepentant sins, but, in my opinion, it ultimately depends on whether the rich man accepts or rejects Jesus as his Lord and savior. God weighs the heart (see proverbs) and God knows whether the rich man truly believes in Him. But the way I read the parable, it looks like the rich man chooses to only serve himself, even while in flames, thus rejecting the Lord and His precepts. The rich man has no desire from what I read to be in union with the Lord, so he might be eternally condemned to the netherworld, the lake of fire (Rev 20:25), but only God knows for sure.
I find the parable to be a frightening reminder of the importance of serving the Lord, making him the center of our day and life and not something else (which would be idolatry).
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Gorgias
Guest
Ahh, but hold on a second: he’s already died – there’s no change of heart or repentance that’s possible from beyond the grave. His fate is already sealed, at the point in which Jesus is telling the story. There’s no more opportunity to “accept or reject”: he’s already done his accepting or rejecting.
So… where’s he heading? You’ve already identified it: “eternal doom”. So, without asking the (somewhat misleading) question of “where is he, in the context of the story?”, it might be more appropriate to ask “what is his eternal fate?” And that, it seems, is clear: he’s not going to be fitted for wings and a harp… :nope:
(I think that the question “where is he?” is misleading, BTW, since it asks us to answer a question about eternal destinations in the context of how we understand them today – but, Jesus told this story in a context in which eternal destinations (and the names by which they were called) were understood somewhat differently (and, in fact, were misunderstood by some!). So, the question is an anachronism: it forces us to use Christian theology to describe a story that was offered prior to the advent of that theology. It’s kind of like asking whether George Washington was a criminal since he transgressed the 13th Amendment by owning slaves…
)
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esmac
Guest
Dude…it’s not clear. Look at the size of this thread.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
That is just like the Saducees.
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Gorgias
Guest
That’s odd… when I asked “what’s his eternal fate?”, you clearly had a distinct answer.Gorgias:
Dude…it’s not clear. Look at the size of this thread.
That’s the reason I asked the “eternal fate” question, BTW: that question is easy to answer, and once we have that answer, the original question is easy to resolve.
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PJM
Guest
Thank you!Well done! Matthew 25:21
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PJM
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Gorgias
Guest
To be fair, you told him that he was wrong, too, and said it first, didn’t you?
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esmac
Guest
AttacksTo be fair, you told him that he was wrong, too, and said it first, didn’t you?
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