the rich man.

[Sirach2]

There are two Greek words which are both translated in the New Testament as “word.” One is “rayma” - the word of God to YOU.
The other is “logos”, the word of God which is universal, general.

I believe Jesus was issuing a “rayma” to the rich man, yet it is not a “rayma” to all unless the Holy Spirit gives you an interior inspiration to go and do likewise. The beautiful part of this scripture is when the man said he had kept the commandments from his youth, Jesus looked upon him and LOVED him. So we don’t see any likelihood that Our Lord was displeased with him. He issued a “rayma” to invite him to higher perfection than that of keeping the commandments, if he wished to take it.

Many will remember the story of Jesus appearing to the apostles while they were on the water. Thinking it was a ghost, Peter boldly declared, “If it is YOU, bid me come to you on the water!” Jesus said, “Come.” It was a “rayma” to Peter alone, and none of the other disciples jumped overboard. How presumptious it would be of anyone to think that we, like Peter, can walk on water, without the special “rayma” addressed to us personally.

 

[PJM]

=spencer2;6602435]sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.

This a metaphor; Not necesarly literal, all though many have given all for the Lord.

It means in ALL that we do, say, and believe:

**God First!

Family second

Work third.**

Be sure to not create fo yourself “other gods.” Money, sex, power ect.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[the_Assyrian_1]

There are two Greek words which are both translated in the New Testament as “word.” One is “rayma” - the word of God to YOU.
The other is “logos”, the word of God which is universal, general.

I believe Jesus was issuing a “rayma” to the rich man, yet it is not a “rayma” to all unless the Holy Spirit gives you an interior inspiration to go and do likewise. The beautiful part of this scripture is when the man said he had kept the commandments from his youth, Jesus looked upon him and LOVED him. So we don’t see any likelihood that Our Lord was displeased with him. He issued a “rayma” to invite him to higher perfection than that of keeping the commandments, if he wished to take it.

Many will remember the story of Jesus appearing to the apostles while they were on the water. Thinking it was a ghost, Peter boldly declared, “If it is YOU, bid me come to you on the water!” Jesus said, “Come.” It was a “rayma” to Peter alone, and none of the other disciples jumped overboard. How presumptious it would be of anyone to think that we, like Peter, can walk on water, without the special “rayma” addressed to us personally.

dear Sirach2,

This is wonderful incite, thankyou so much!!! I see this makes perfect sense…

Again Thankyou so much for the incite!

XX

 

[Sirach2]

Dear Assyrian,

You have such a beautiful spirit! I was blessed by your thanksgiving and I praise God for giving you light through my words. How often I post on these forums, just like a feather in the wind, never knowing if it reaches anyone, or if it is ever read. Nobody answers. I can’t tell you how much I was lifted by your response. God bless you abundantly!

 

[GaryTaylor]

The link to physical world. Often the most faithfull also feel most comfortable among the poor? Edgar Cayce comes to mind right off the top of my head. And without a doubt money will not bring happiness.

No Man can serve two Masters…

Will you follow Jesus if he asks you to enter into a season of Poverty?

Only the man who’s gives up “all” his possessions can be my disciple…Luke 14:33

Read Acts 4:32.+ 34-35

Weath is worthless in the day of Wrath, rightousness delivers from Death. Whoever shall trust in his richs shall fall…Prov 11:24.28

 

[JRKH]

regarding the rich man, I see this as a commandment for all who can accept it, Jesus said, “try your hardest to enter through the narrow gate” this is it…! I agree with the church, in teaching this is part of our salvation…

because when the disciples heard what Jesus said, they questioned him, and said, “then who can be saved?” And God answered, Amen.

2nd Clement puts it like this, " For Alms-giving lifteth off the burden of sin" what’s he talking about? He is saying, people are dying and you have money in the bank… therefore God says, “be blameless as I am” [my understanding of scripture]…

Think about what I said here, read in-between the lines… is having money really the burden of sin? certainly makes you think about how the world works… The early church fathers used to embrace “a spirit of Poverty”, Jesus said, '“How blessed are you who are poor” [Luke 12:20]… why because it has blessings in God’s eyes… May I add this is still the teaching of the church (to embrace a spirit of poverty)…

Good luck

This si VERY well put. You have a wonderful understanding of this for it stems from that Law of Love which is the support for all of the Law and all of the Prophets (Mt 22:36-40).

Peace
James

 

[Danno2281]

** WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RICH YOUNG MAN?**

The rich young man, although he walked away sad, was greatly moved by this encounter, and was convinced that Jesus was, in fact, the Messiah. It occurred to him that he could actually use his money to serve Jesus in overthrowing the Roman rule (something the Messiah was certain, in many minds, to do), and so he threw in with the Zealots looking to obtain sufficient arms to support the Messianic restoration. He soon realized that far more money than he had might be needed, and so he devised a plan: why not use Roman money to buy the arms? The payroll convoy for the garrison could be ambushed by Zealots and the rather significant take used to buy arms.
But the Romans were far too adept ay protecting their convoys for the Zealot bandits, and our young man was captured. His senmtence - death by crucifixion. We know him as Dismas.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I think many other saints interpreted this passage literally other than just St.Francis but their names escape me. Is there a hierarchy in heaven? If there is, and St. Francis has the greatest possible reward because he followed every instruction of Jesus, heaven being eternal and this life being ephemeral, then wouldn’t it be logical to imitate St.Francis and receive the greatest possible reward available? maximum eternal reward > short life of suffering and dying in the street? Why haven’t more people done this?

Second if someone were actually to do this in our modern culture, would it be a problem receiving the sacraments? What church is going to let you in to worship if you are a beggar and reek of human waste? Isn’t panhandling illegal? Even if the parish uses incense, wouldn’t the stench distract people at mass? Would most priests not hear your confession/give you the Eucharist? As insane as this sounds, I’m actually serious.

 

[kepha1]

sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.

There is plenty of depth in this encyclical VERITATIS SPLENDOR

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I tried it when I was much younger but didn’t get very far. I tried pulling a Saint Francis. I sold everything, and left the house without shoes, or a coat. It was about 20 degrees out, so I made it about three blocks before I ran home and jumped in a hot shower.

Sorry to get off topic, but your episode reminds me of an incident when our Silky Terrier went astray on one occasion. He took fright he was going to get into trouble if he came to us when we called him, and ran off and hid somewhere. We thought we’d lost him, rang the pound, rang the RSPCA, searched the neighbourhood, told our neighbours.

All to no avail. But in the forlorn hope that he’d turn up we left the side gate open.

7pm, and tea time. Guess who turned up at the side door? Like you in your early years, he knew which side his dog food was buttered on.

 

[kelvinf]

I think many other saints interpreted this passage literally other than just St.Francis but their names escape me. Is there a hierarchy in heaven? If there is, and St. Francis has the greatest possible reward because he followed every instruction of Jesus, heaven being eternal and this life being ephemeral, then wouldn’t it be logical to imitate St.Francis and receive the greatest possible reward available? maximum eternal reward > short life of suffering and dying in the street? Why haven’t more people done this?

Second if someone were actually to do this in our modern culture, would it be a problem receiving the sacraments? What church is going to let you in to worship if you are a beggar and reek of human waste? Isn’t panhandling illegal? Even if the parish uses incense, wouldn’t the stench distract people at mass? Would most priests not hear your confession/give you the Eucharist? As insane as this sounds, I’m actually serious.

Any response to this?

 

[Danno2281]

Poverty does not exclude cleanliness. The poor in rural areas use lakes and streams for washwater, and urban folk have public water supplies. No, poverty can certainly accomodate cleanliness.

 

[revert_jen]

I think many other saints interpreted this passage literally other than just St.Francis but their names escape me. Is there a hierarchy in heaven? If there is, and St. Francis has the greatest possible reward because he followed every instruction of Jesus, heaven being eternal and this life being ephemeral, then wouldn’t it be logical to imitate St.Francis and receive the greatest possible reward available?

None of us has been to Heaven and I don’t think the Church teaches any specifics of what it will be like. So any answer to this question would be speculation. Personally, I don’t think that you can measure the holiness of the person by the number of Jesus’ “instructions” that they have followed, even assuming that the instruction in question was addressed to everyone, which I don’t really agree with.

The way Heaven was described to me (again, this is just speculation) was that everyone in Heaven will be completely full of Joy, but depending on how much you loved God in life, determines how juch joy it takes to make you full. I never learned of anything like a hierarchy.

maximum eternal reward > short life of suffering and dying in the street? Why haven’t more people done this?

Second if someone were actually to do this in our modern culture, would it be a problem receiving the sacraments? What church is going to let you in to worship if you are a beggar and reek of human waste? Isn’t panhandling illegal? Even if the parish uses incense, wouldn’t the stench distract people at mass? Would most priests not hear your confession/give you the Eucharist? As insane as this sounds, I’m actually serious.

St. Francis was not a panhandler. He never received money–the alms were food and so forth. I do not know of any part of his Rule that advised against proper hygiene, and in general, medieval religious were pretty clean. And there is nothing inherent in poverty to cause you to smell of human waste.

Anyway, you appear to be taking the idea too far. How are you advancing the Kingdom of God by panhandling and smelling of human waste? How is that an effective witness of the value of following the teachings of God and repenting of your sins?

–Jen

 

[Flame4]

I once had a priest give a homily and say that the important part is not that the rich man is punished and that the poor man is rewarded, but that the rich man tries to come and tell his brothers about God, and God does not let him. God says that if people do not trust his laws and the prophets, then they will not beileve someone even from the dead.

So the important point is that we can’t come back and change things, for ourselves or for others. Also it addresses the points made by atheists that God should give them evidence of his existance. To that he says, “I have given you evidence.”

Hope this helps, and that you actually read this! (I see this is already on page 3!)

God Bless

 

[Gloria1]

Here is a quote from Pope John Paul II “The poor should not be ashamed of their poverty, nor disdain the charity of the rich; for they should have especially in view the Redeemer, who, though He might have been born in riches, made Himself poor in order that He might ennoble poverty and enrich it with incomparable merits for Heaven.”
From this quote, you can see that it is easier to go to heaven a poor man than to go to heaven a rich man. However, this doesn’t mean that no rich person can go to heaven. If you are rich and you use your wealth to help the poor and the needy in the society, you have a very good chance of going to heaven. However, if you are rich and you use your money to oppress the poor and the needy in the society then you have very little or no chance at all.

 

[kelvinf]

St. Francis was not a panhandler.

I have never read the story of St. Francis but in the movie, “brother sun, sister moon”, he was.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Poverty does not exclude cleanliness. The poor in rural areas use lakes and streams for washwater, and urban folk have public water supplies. No, poverty can certainly accomodate cleanliness.

Well the thing is, I’ve actually considered it. Scripture indicates a hierarchy in heaven. The disciples argued over who was going to be the “greatest” in heaven. Jesus said that the “least of you will be the greatest” or something like that.

The thing is, if you were to sell everything you own and give the proceeds to the poor, you would be homeless, not just impoverished. In an urban area, you would be dirty because cities are dirty.

You would have to use the bathroom daily. Most Starbucks and McDonalds do not allow homeless people to use the restrooms. You have to be a paying customer. I could be wrong though because I have no idea what it is like to be homeless. I have volunteered at Catholic soup kitchens that serve the homeless, but I don’t ask them where they use the bathroom. Most of the homeless I have served, have an offensive odor.

I am not saying this to degrade the homeless, only to illuminate the reality of poverty. You can say all you want behind the security of an anonymous account on these forums, but the fact that you have internet access most likely means you are not in poverty and cannot speak for those who are. Even though they can have access at public libraries and such, most of them are mainly concerned with survival and what they will eat, not how they smell. That’s reality unfortunately.

I would really like someone to comment who has a realistic understanding of the homeless and what imitating St.Francis in our modern age would actually entail.

 

[Danno2281]

Well the thing is, I’ve actually considered it. Scripture indicates a hierarchy in heaven. The disciples argued over who was going to be the “greatest” in heaven. Jesus said that the “least of you will be the greatest” or something like that.

The thing is, if you were to sell everything you own and give the proceeds to the poor, you would be homeless, not just impoverished. In an urban area, you would be dirty because cities are dirty.

You would have to use the bathroom daily. Most Starbucks and McDonalds do not allow homeless people to use the restrooms. You have to be a paying customer. I could be wrong though because I have no idea what it is like to be homeless. I have volunteered at Catholic soup kitchens that serve the homeless, but I don’t ask them where they use the bathroom. Most of the homeless I have served, have an offensive odor.

I am not saying this to degrade the homeless, only to illuminate the reality of poverty. You can say all you want behind the security of an anonymous account on these forums, but the fact that you have internet access most likely means you are not in poverty and cannot speak for those who are. Even though they can have access at public libraries and such, most of them are mainly concerned with survival and what they will eat, not how they smell. That’s reality unfortunately.

I would really like someone to comment who has a realistic understanding of the homeless and what imitating St.Francis in our modern age would actually entail.

I live in NYC, so I can speak only from my own circumstances, but there are shelters for the homeless here where facilities for cleanliness are available. I believe any person interested in cleanliness can find a means to achieve it, however impoverished.

 

[prodigalson12]

Poverty does not exclude cleanliness. The poor in rural areas use lakes and streams for washwater, and urban folk have public water supplies. No, poverty can certainly accomodate cleanliness.

I live in NYC, so I can speak only from my own circumstances, but there are shelters for the homeless here where facilities for cleanliness are available. I believe any person interested in cleanliness can find a means to achieve it, however impoverished.

And if you spend your every waking moment trying to find some way to fill your stomache because you have not eaten for days, and your head hurts due to the hot sun, your bones ache due to freezing nights, and your heart is broken because you are left alone to survive less then an animal, see how much effort you take to run to some shelter miles away to clean up just so you don’t smell so bad to make sure those well to do’s are not uncomfortable with your presence, begging and pleading in worship in our Fathers house…

I see all together too many stances and statements made like what you have, and all I say in each case, they are a sad piece of work my friend in desperate need of a huge wake up call of repentance and pennance, surely I hope they become just like the ones they look your nose down upon, surely I pray for it to happen to humble themselves enough to realize the true value and nature of our faith. Christ would be ashamed to keep company with the likes of these that put abhorrent statements like this on the most needy of our society. Posting twice in a short time, in my book like this, obviously means you are in desperate need of correction, that heart is of stone, which is why I come down so hard here, and it’s out of love for them as well as you I do so.

Go drop everything you have and know and live as these little ones you persecute for a few days, you will see just how hard they have it, if you have a problem with some homeless person worshipping next to you because they smell, take them home and give them a shower, a meal, and cloth them yourself, otherwise, keep your mouth shut and your eyes closed and your nose plugged, you are not worthy at all to even be in their company in the first place!!!

 

[nsper7]

And if you spend your every waking moment trying to find some way to fill your stomache because you have not eaten for days, and your head hurts due to the hot sun, your bones ache due to freezing nights, and your heart is broken because you are left alone to survive less then an animal, see how much effort you take to run to some shelter miles away to clean up just so you don’t smell so bad to make sure those well to do’s are not uncomfortable with your presence, begging and pleading in worship in our Fathers house…

I see all together too many stances and statements made like what you have, and all I say in each case, they are a sad piece of work my friend in desperate need of a huge wake up call of repentance and pennance, surely I hope they become just like the ones they look your nose down upon, surely I pray for it to happen to humble themselves enough to realize the true value and nature of our faith. Christ would be ashamed to keep company with the likes of these that put abhorrent statements like this on the most needy of our society. Posting twice in a short time, in my book like this, obviously means you are in desperate need of correction, that heart is of stone, which is why I come down so hard here, and it’s out of love for them as well as you I do so.

Go drop everything you have and know and live as these little ones you persecute for a few days, you will see just how hard they have it, if you have a problem with some homeless person worshipping next to you because they smell, take them home and give them a shower, a meal, and cloth them yourself, otherwise, keep your mouth shut and your eyes closed and your nose plugged, you are not worthy at all to even be in their company in the first place!!!

Let’s try to maintain charity, shall we?

Also, let’s not hijack the thread with a debate about homelessness/extreme poverty as it relates to cleanliness. You are free to start a new thread of course discussing this topic or whatever your concerns are.

The OP said, and I quote,

spencer2:

sell all that you have, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. can someone explain this more in depth. if taken literaly, then we can only enter heaven if we live in poverty and work our jobs to provide for the poor.

My answer to the OP was and remains:

nsper7:

I believe the official teaching on the Church is that:

A) To be Saved (“inherit eternal life”), we must obey the precepts and commandments of the Church
B) The evangelical counsels ("sell all you, give to the poor, etc.) are NOT necessary for Salvation, but more to achieve a higher state of Christian perfection (“if thou will be perfect”)