P
ProVobis
Guest
Lots of good it did her to possess firearms.
- Status
T
triumphguy
Guest
How can that be when there are 12,664 murders in the US and of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms (the Guardian quoting the FBI) as opposed to 550 murders with 39 by guns in the UK, and maybe 250 in Canada (where the rate of gun ownership *per capita *is exactly the same as the US)?
On your chart it looks like the US gun homicide rate is only a “smidge” higher at 3.59% higher (than the UK at 0.03% for example), because that is how you have created the chart.
The rate is NOT 3.56% higher.
The rate is in fact well over a THOUSAND percent higher.
3.59% is actually 119 times higher than 0.03%
J
jwinch2
Guest
2.5 Million defensive uses of firearms in the United States per year according to the Department of Justice.
ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
Mom in Georgia defends herself and her two children with a gun.
csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2013/0110/Mom-shoots-intruder-A-point-for-gun-rights-advocates-video
A father in Columbus, Ohio was forced to defend himself and his 2-month-old son when a man pulled a gun and attempted to rob him on Monday night.
theblaze.com/stories/concealed-carry-holder-teaches-armed-robber-why-its-a-bad-idea-to-pull-a-gun-on-a-dad/
School Shooting in Tennessee That National Media Did Not Report. In this case an armed Security Resource Officer, Carolyn Gudger, became a local hero and saved an unknown number of lives by holding the gunman at bay until backup arrived.
tnsmartgirl.com/2013/01/06/school-shooting-in-tennessee-that-national-media-did-not-report/
P
ProVobis
Guest
What you’re mostly showing here is that guns beget guns. IOW, one guy gets a gun and that forces everyone else to get a gun which forces even more to get guns. What a country!
J
jwinch2
Guest
No. What I am showing here is that guns are a tool and in the hands of good people they are harmless or capable of being used for good things. In the hands of bad people or sick people they are dangerous and capable of being used for bad things. Its the people, who are to blame, not the tool and restricting gun ownership has no bearing on crime whatsoever.
law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7212&context=expresso
justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2975352/posts
dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2013/01/06/1-gun-control-has-a-clear-record-of-failure.html?fb_action_ids=600328459980817&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%22600328459980817%22%3A329293513853597%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22600328459980817%22%3A%22og.recommends%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
J
jwinch2
Guest
If restricting guns in the inner city was the answer to prevention of murder, Nashville, TN would have a massively higher rate of murder and gun crime as compared to Washington DC instead of 1/2 the rate; and Chicago, IL would have a much lower rate of gun crime than Dallas, TX. However, exactly none of those things are reality. In fact, they are all exactly the opposite of that.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Department of Justice Commissioned Report: Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003
ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf
ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf
N
nitesnake
Guest
How? Where does church doctrine say anything about gun ownership?
Again, how, and where (specifically) does the the Church teach that?
None of what you’ve written is Church doctrine; none. It’s just your very well written opinion on a political issue. The collective opinions of the USCCB concerning this issue carries the same weight as yours. They are simply political opinions, nothing more.
P
ProVobis
Guest
A single bishop, perhaps, but a collective opinion of a synod of bishops? I don’t think so.
N
nitesnake
Guest
How does that change anything? It’s simply a collective, political opinion. I’ll ask again for the hundredth time, where is the Church doctrine that tells me I cannot own a firearm? Or buy one? Or possess one? Or carry one? And where is a single statement by a single U.S.Bishop, or a collection of Bishops, or a synod of Bishops, or a conference of Bishops that forbids me from doing so?
N
nitesnake
Guest
Except that gun-control advocates will say that all these criminals just went to other states to get their guns. They will then conclude that the solution is a federal ban on whatever guns they see as unnecessary or excessively dangerous, (which means all of them but they will never admit it).
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
European Comission and UN are reponsible for the sources showing Britain has a violent crime rate of 2034 per 100000 and US has a violent crime of 466 per 100000
Are you wasting your time continuing to compare Britain to America’s crime? You keep doing it so it is hypocritical for you to say I am wasting my time doing it
All the sources I provided are reputable, most from mainstream media
As for the 80 crimes per 1000 statistic, consider that the British population is 5 times smaller than the US
L
liturgyluver
Guest
Abyssinia - if you bothered to read the report article fleetingly referred to you will see that no such figure exists. The actual figure from the report for major assault for the UK was 32.3 compared with 281.6 for the US. See further posts up about the different reporting mechanisms between our countries. Furthermore you need to learn that when statistics are given per 1,000 or per 100,000 that is a weighted average which compares like with like and rather than just comparing the actual figures. That’s what makes US charitable giving so poor when you look at it on a per capita basis.
The reason you waste your time as I said before is that in Europe some countries have higher gun owenrship than others but in every case the homicide rate is fraction of what it is in the US. When you quote statistics about the UK you seem to implying that high crime exists because of a lack of guns - well crime is at its lowest level for over 30 years. There are other countries in Euope with similar low gun ownership and they have even lower crime than the UK. There are other countries in Europe with high gun ownership (mainly for hunting, not for protection) and these also have a low crime and homicide rate.
A better question for you to think about is why criminals in Europe do not use guns in the way they do in the US, whether this explains the low homicide rate, and what lessons there might be for the US? Why does Canada with similar levels of gun ownership to the US have a much lower homicide rate? Or is the US homicide rate destined to remain forever at third world levels, thousands of percentage points above the rest of the industrialised world? I sincerely hope not.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
Havard study, Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence, found the 9 European countries with low levels of gun ownership, 100000 population less than 5000 guns, have a combined murder rate that is 3 times higher compared to the 9 countries with the highest rate of gun ownership, 100000 population minimum of 15000 guns
Page 661
Page 663
Switzerland has the 4th highest rate of gun ownership in the world, they don’t have bans on semi autmatic guns or high capacity ammunition and gun violence is rare. Switzerland’s homicide rate involving guns per 100000 is 0.70
US is number 1 for rate of gun ownership, 88 guns per 100 people, but the US has a lower rate of gun murder than Jamaica, which is 74 on the list of guns per capita; Hondurus number 88 and El Salvador number 92 which have higher rates of gun murder as do 24 other countries before America. US is 28 in gun homicide with 2.97 per 100000
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
Most of the gun crime is America is related to gang violence and drug cartels coming in from neighboring Mexico
L
liturgyluver
Guest
Abyssinia, you obviously didn’t read what I said in my previous post that homicide and gun violence is rare in Europe regardless of the level of gun ownership. And then you compare the US to Jamaica, El Salvador and Hondorus. Are you serious?
You say the US gun homicide rate is 2.97. - that places it just below just below war-torn Zimbabwe in Africa. The next highest industrualised nation is Serbia at 0.6, even Switzerland is 0.52, Sweden 0.19 and the UK 0.04, Poland 0.02. The US general homicide rate is 4.8 - No other first-world comes close to that. And these rates are at their lowest for 50 years which probably predates gang violence and drugs (which incidently exist everywhere).
Perhaps this link might move the debate on?
sandiegofreepress.org/2013/01/a-cultural-comparison-gun-violence-in-the-us-and-europe-part-1/
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
For the author to say Americans worship guns is cliche and shows a total misunderstanding. Second amendment was written to protect people from potential government tyranny, not just so people can use a gun to hunt or use in sport. There are many examples in history of democracies becoming tyrannical, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain in the 20th century and the 2nd amendment protects citizens from such tyranny by allowing people to protect themselves. In Cambodia, Uganda, Soviet Union, China, Guatamala etc gun control laws were passed before the tyranny began and millions were killed, citizens could not defend themselves
No country in Europe borders a country where drug cartels are coming across the border and murder is a large part of these drug cartels
Article says
If there was a link between more murder and then gun crime should of increased as more guns have been sold. Gun crime has decreased even though there is increased ownership so more guns, or more gun control equals more murder does not compute
Cities and states with strict gun control such as Chicago, New York City and Baltimore have much higher rates of murder then states and cities that have few gun control laws
L
liturgyluver
Guest
I don’t think that gun control played in any part in the establishment of fascist regimes in Europe but that is not relevant for this discussion.
I am interested to know whether most Americans bear arms more to protect themselves from criminals or in case of tyannical governement or both. Are there any studies around this? - it would be genuinely interesting to see.
D
duneman
Guest
A LITTLE STORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late.
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED. Admiral Yamamoto said “There is an armed citizen behind every blade of grass!” He knew what Japan would be up against and was smart enough to avoid invading. He also said (about America) “All we have done is awaken a sleeping giant!”
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN.
SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY MALE ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. THEY ARE PART OF SWITZERLANDS “ARMY RESERVE” and have NEVER had to go to WAR! THEY ARE PREPARED!
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. IT’S A NO BRAINER
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late.
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED. Admiral Yamamoto said “There is an armed citizen behind every blade of grass!” He knew what Japan would be up against and was smart enough to avoid invading. He also said (about America) “All we have done is awaken a sleeping giant!”
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN.
SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY MALE ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. THEY ARE PART OF SWITZERLANDS “ARMY RESERVE” and have NEVER had to go to WAR! THEY ARE PREPARED!
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. IT’S A NO BRAINER
D
dshix
Guest
Thanks for sharing that, that’s a very clearly put piece.
L
liturgyluver
Guest
To attribute all the genocide in the twentieth century to a lack of gun control is simplistic nonsense, since thousands die each year in countries where guns are in abundance, and in most countries with gun control there have been no such events.
Switzerland certainly does not have the lowest gun related crime rate - It’s firearm death rate at 3.84 is the highest in Europe, and its firearm homicide rate is in the highest quartile at 0.52 which believe it or not is high for Europe - most countries rate is less than half of that, and Poland’s is the lowest at 0.02. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Why quote Switzerland as an example of where gun ownership equates with low gun crime? Presumably because you can’t quote the US where it doesn’t!
- Status