The Right to Bear Arms

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liturgyluver said:
To attribute all the genocide in the twentieth century to a lack of gun control is simplistic nonsense, since thousands die each year in countries where guns are in abundance, and in most countries with gun control there have been no such events.

Switzerland certainly does not have the lowest gun related crime rate - It’s firearm death rate at 3.84 is the highest in Europe, and its firearm homicide rate is in the highest quartile at 0.52 which believe it or not is high for Europe - most countries rate is less than half of that, and Poland’s is the lowest at 0.02. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Why quote Switzerland as an example of where gun ownership equates with low gun crime? Presumably because you can’t quote the US where it doesn’t!
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What Switzerland provides evidence for is that a high rate of gun ownership does not mean high murder rate and that the rate of murder depends on a variety of things that has little to do with gun ownership
 
_Abyssinia said:
What Switzerland provides evidence for is that a high rate of gun ownership does not mean high murder rate and that the rate of murder depends on a variety of things that has little to do with gun ownership
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You are right, that might be true. It might also be that the circumstances under which the Swiss hold their guns and their ammunition is different from the US, and that it’s harder for criminals to access them.
 
triumphguy said:
How can that be when there are 12,664 murders in the US and of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms (the Guardian quoting the FBI) as opposed to 550 murders with 39 by guns in the UK, and maybe 250 in Canada (where the rate of gun ownership *per capita *is exactly the same as the US)?

On your chart it looks like the US gun homicide rate is only a “smidge” higher at 3.59% higher (than the UK at 0.03% for example), because that is how you have created the chart.

The rate is NOT 3.56% higher.

The rate is in fact well over a THOUSAND percent higher. :eek::eek::eek:

3.59% is actually 119 times higher than 0.03%
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Read it again. That is the RATE of murders per 100,000 people per year. Meaning that England has a per capita gun homicide rate of .03 PEOPLE per 100,000 and America has a per capita gun homicide rate of 3.59 PEOPLE per 100,000. The chart has NOTHING to do with percentages, because arbitrarily (from the percapita rate) the percent likelihood of being the victim of gun homicide in the US is 0.0359% and in Englad this percentage is 0.0003%. When regarded in THOSE numbers, the US looks even LESS like a place with a terrible murder rate, and the gun control lobby looks even more alarmist and ridiculous.

And the point is that, yes, when we consider the US against other nations IN PERSPECTIVE to their rates of gun homicide, we can see that the US gun homicide rate is comparatively only a smidge higher.
Baelor said:
Your argument seems a bit off.

First, the countries that have more gun violence are poor, war-torn, or otherwise hot messes. That hardly reflects well on the US, a developed country.

Second, given that other countries with lower gun violence also have less gun ownership, why would we not want to reduce gun ownership? Are you asserting there is no correlation whatsoever? If few bear arms legally in foreign countries, why is there still less gun violence?
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Actually, it puts in perspective that the homicide rate in the US is only slightly higher than that of other nations.

Second, you can’t see it because CAF failed to properly post the second diagram full size, but the second chart shows that MOST of the countries with the WORST gun violence actually have strict gun control with lower rates of legal private gun ownership than most western European countries… and yet their firearms homicide rate, despite strict gun control, is so high that when displayed next to the USofA, you call foul for even showing their stats…

The point is that it is SOCIETAL issues that cause violence, not guns. You can have the most strict gun control in the world (as many south American countries do) and still have repugnant gun violence because of complex social issues. Believing that making guns illegal will have ANY impact on gun homicide rates is a dream.
 
When hearing the rhetoric on both sides of the current gun control debate, it might be helpful to look at what someone has done, rather than only what they say now.

whitehousedossier.com/2013/01/11/obama-opposed-gun-ban-exception-defend-home/

ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?GAID=3&GA=93&DocNum=2165&DocTypeID=SB&SessionID=3&LegID=7961&SpecSess=&Session=

politico.com/news/stories/1207/7312.html

politico.com/news/stories/0308/9269.html

The truth, is that President Obama believes it should be illegal to use a gun to defend yourself inside of your own home, and he wants to ban all handguns.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
I can’t believe he said that.
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I, on the other hand, have no problem believing that he said that. Whenever a tragedy happens, I count about 30 seconds, then turn on the news to see which one of them (Bloomberg, Rendell, Feinstein, etc.) shows up first in an effort to exploit someone getting killed for their own political purposes.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Second amendment was written to protect people from potential government tyranny, not just so people can use a gun to hunt or use in sport.
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Aby, when was the last time you saw or heard the U.S. government using tyranny only your gun could stop? It is now 2013, mind you, not 1776.
 
liturgyluver said:
To attribute all the genocide in the twentieth century to a lack of gun control is simplistic nonsense, since thousands die each year in countries where guns are in abundance, and in most countries with gun control there have been no such events.

Switzerland certainly does not have the lowest gun related crime rate - It’s firearm death rate at 3.84 is the highest in Europe, and its firearm homicide rate is in the highest quartile at 0.52 which believe it or not is high for Europe - most countries rate is less than half of that, and Poland’s is the lowest at 0.02. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Why quote Switzerland as an example of where gun ownership equates with low gun crime? Presumably because you can’t quote the US where it doesn’t!
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In a nation where the citizens have been deprived of firearms is a nation in which the government is not at all afraid to employ force in its policies. As soon as a corrupt government gets the chance, it will pass legislation and being doing things which the citizens do not want – and they can do NOTHING about it.

We can’t quote the US on gun ownership because regulations are increasingly stopping guns from being where they need to be!!

Everywhere you hear of a mass shooting, the news eventually leaks out that there was no armed guard on site. If there was one, the situation could have been different.

Come on, and look at facts. Switzerland has already been quoted, and I think it is all the proof you need of the way gun ownership equates to lower crime levels. The situation is the same in every city in the US that has extremely high gun ownership – very little crime.
 
dshix said:
Come on, and look at facts. Switzerland has already been quoted, and I think it is all the proof you need of the way gun ownership equates to lower crime levels.
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Sure, as long as the ammunition is sparse.
 
ProVobis said:
Sure, as long as the ammunition is sparse.
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How about you stop speculating about how the facts might be wrong, and instead look at the facts first?

When a person chooses an agenda to follow up front, and then looks at everything through that lens, they are obfuscating the things they choose not to see. This causes them to not see truth when it goes against their intended belief, and instead they figure out a way to twist the truth, plainly shown by facts and common sense, to what they wish.
 
ProVobis said:
Aby, when was the last time you saw or heard the U.S. government using tyranny only your gun could stop? It is now 2013, mind you, not 1776.
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Did citizens in the countries I listed in 116 post know when the gun control laws were passed before tyranny began how those laws passed years before meant they could not defend themselves?

You do not know when tyranny could happen
 
_Abyssinia said:
You can not know what is going to happen in the future. I bet when the gun control laws were passed before tyranny began in the countries I listed in a previous post they did not know at the time what would happen in the future and how the gun control laws passed years earlier meant they would not be able to defend themselves in future
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In America, the first shots of the Revolutionary War happened when?
 
Actaeon said:
Read it again. That is the RATE of murders per 100,000 people per year. Meaning that England has a per capita gun homicide rate of .03 PEOPLE per 100,000 and America has a per capita gun homicide rate of 3.59 PEOPLE per 100,000. The chart has NOTHING to do with percentages, because arbitrarily (from the percapita rate) the percent likelihood of being the victim of gun homicide in the US is 0.0359% and in Englad this percentage is 0.0003%. When regarded in THOSE numbers, the US looks even LESS like a place with a terrible murder rate, and the gun control lobby looks even more alarmist and ridiculous.

And the point is that, yes, when we consider the US against other nations IN PERSPECTIVE to their rates of gun homicide, we can see that the US gun homicide rate is comparatively only a smidge higher.

Actually, it puts in perspective that the homicide rate in the US is only slightly higher than that of other nations.

Second, you can’t see it because CAF failed to properly post the second diagram full size, but the second chart shows that MOST of the countries with the WORST gun violence actually have strict gun control with lower rates of legal private gun ownership than most western European countries… and yet their firearms homicide rate, despite strict gun control, is so high that when displayed next to the USofA, you call foul for even showing their stats…

The point is that it is SOCIETAL issues that cause violence, not guns. You can have the most strict gun control in the world (as many south American countries do) and still have repugnant gun violence because of complex social issues. Believing that making guns illegal will have ANY impact on gun homicide rates is a dream.
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There is another fact going unreported in the context of the discussion. Most homicides are committed in large cities (Which generally have strict gun-control laws) by people involved with gangs and drugs. Government statistics indicate that the victims are six times and the perpetrators seven times more likely of a racial minority. I say this, as a person without a racist bone in my body and to point out that our crime problem has nothing to do with guns but everything to do with the breakdown in family life. Progressive policies are strongly associated with this dilemma. Yet the same people want to disarm us and maintain a disingenuous silence about the true cause of most of the violence in this country. The agenda trumps all else.:mad:
 
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