I can’t understand why any christian who knows murder is a sin could support abortion.Loose? We have already lost them.
Personally I don’t think you need to be Christian to have this law written in your heart, It absolutely baffles me how anyone can think that killing the baby is O.KI can’t understand why any christian who knows murder is a sin could support abortion.
When a woman is pregnant what do you think is growing in the womb?
Anyone who supports abortion is wrong. Fifth Commandment, “thou shalt not kill.”
Pray about this. It is a serious issue.
jean
So Limerick, are you saying that because there are some people not capable of agreeing with what Catholic morality states regarding abortion that the ideas of finding it wrong or right depends on the individual?**
I have not said that abortion is not murder. I have said that not every person capable of reason and thought and emotion agrees with that premise.
As for my loving you, it is your ideas I find unworthy of embracing, not you as a person.
Limerick
**
With those numbers you have presented…are those practicing Catholics or those in the cafeteria line? I think those numbers are for those “Catholics” holding a tray and picking and choosing! Do you by any chance, work in the mainstream media?Actually, the only reason that I used the word “ensouled” was because that was the word that Thomas Aquinas used when he talking about when a pregnancy could end in good consince - granted, we can’t believe everything Aqinas said because he also said that if the woman carried a male, it was “ensouled” at 40 days, if it was a femal then it was “ensouled” at 80 days-they had some interesting ways of thinking back then. But we’re getting away from the actual question - this is legal in the US and many other countries - granted, personally I don’t think it sould be used as a form of birth control, there are far too many other ways and forms of artificial birth control that are much simpler than having an abortion. I just don’t believe that a woman if she does not want to or feels it is not in her best interest should be FORCED to CHOOSE only one way - In China, I don’t believe they should be forced to abort in certain situations - here I don’t feel that anyone has the right to make that decision but the person who is going to have to carry a fetus, pregnancy whatever you want to call it for nine months. I believe that when they die, they will have to explain themselves to God and that is more than enough justice.
I am trying to say that it is all wrong to have one - I believe that there are cases where it is necessary - or has been necessary to have one. Like anything else when time is up on Earth, if you believe in God then you believe that you’ll need to account for your actions. Personally, we’ve had to make the decision and I’m glad we were able to make that choice because I didn’t particularly want to die for the possiblity for a less than 10% chance of both of us making it in one piece. When you’ve dealt with that kind of choice then I think you’re ready to weigh in on saying “I would Never EVER Condone abortion at any time” - if your wife’s organs are petering out because her body can’t handle the extra burdern and you have to decide what to do, then come and tell me that you can say for 100% sure that you would never ever condone it.
And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%)
**Is it too challenging to simply answer the question?To put it in message board terms, you’re a troll.
**My position refers to fear in decision-making, fear of the future, fear of being unworthy of the love and mercy of God, of not being entitled to His protection and guidance. It is a fear from not standing within the sunlight of the Spirit.If a kid wakes up crying in the middle of the night because he dreamt monsters were chasing him, I wouldn’t reprimand him for not trusting God. He was scared, and I would comfort and console him. Likewise, if I’m walking in the woods with a friend and she sees a snake and is afraid, I wouldn’t see it as a lack of faith in God. Fear is often an unwanted, inevitable reaction to something that threatens our health and well-being, and being in fear is not necessarily sinful. It’s not that God couldn’t chase away the monsters in the dream or the snake in the woods, it’s just that He often chooses not to do so.
I think you’re trying to demonstrate that we shouldn’t criticize or reprimand someone for choosing something (like abortion) when it’s motivated by fear. God understands this fear; after all, he was human and faced death. He sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane because he was so afraid of dying. And yet he still said, “Thy will be done.” This is the example we have to follow: being afraid, being scared to do what is right, and doing it anyway.
**I have been called a relativist, yes.So Limerick, are you saying that because there are some people not capable of agreeing with what Catholic morality states regarding abortion that the ideas of finding it wrong or right depends on the individual?
**A fetus, though human, is not yet a baby.Personally I don’t think you need to be Christian to have this law written in your heart, It absolutely baffles me how anyone can think that killing the baby is O.K
The Church would rather that both lived. The real reason behind the truths that the Church offers is that we we should not be the ones who choose whether or not we live or die, whether or not a loved one lives or dies, that we should place that burden at the feet of Jesus and pray that it turns out all right. And you’re right, Jesus did help them to understand things, but He did it in a way that led them closer to Him, in a way that they did not always understand, but that they accepted with faith. As Catholics we are supposed to accept that God knows what’s best for us and that He knows what we can withstand more than we, ourselves, do. You should not turn away from the Church, the One and Only church where the presence of Jesus is real just because of what some people say on a forum. Talk with your priest about what’s happened and ask him in person, I know talking to my priest always makes me feel better about hard decisions. NOTE I am not telling you to go to confession, but to talk with your priest and to get to know him and to let him get to know you. Priests and religious aren’t the enemies, neither are your fellow parishioners despite how we’ve acted through the guise of anonymity online. To Jesus through Mary, May she guide your steps closer to her Son and to understanding.Nope, you’re right, it doesn’t make an impact on me -but I will say this, I did start this thread with truly wanting to get some understanding - mostly as to why the faith I have been brought up in would rather see two dead than one live. Unfortunately, most of what I’ve been given is “it’s wrong -accept it or you’re not catholic” - or “you don’t need to understand it, just accept it if you’re truely Catholic” - my parents brought me up to question things and I’m glad they did, I have learned so much from questioning and having things explained - this unfortunately has not happened here. Instead of being aided to understand why I’ve been told what I should think if I am to truely be Catholic. When the Disciples asked Jesus a question, did He just say - "that’s the way I say it should be so believe it or stop following Me? " That’s not what I remember.
I still don’t get your point. My position is that a person can experience fear as they make a decision, be fearful of the future, and still do the right thing. In a situation like this, a person can feel unworthy of the love and mercy of God (and really, we’re not worthy!) and this in itself wouldn’t be sinful.**My position refers to fear in decision-making, fear of the future, fear of being unworthy of the love and mercy of God, of not being entitled to His protection and guidance. It is a fear from not standing within the sunlight of the Spirit.
I’m not talking about little kids and nightmares, and my “snakes in the grass” are figurative, not literal.
Limerick**
Then what is it? And when does it become a baby? When is it not okay to kill?**A fetus, though human, is not yet a baby.
Limerick**
Because there is subjective and objective truth.**
Why qualify “truth” with “objective”? In your world, either it’s truth or it’s not, correct?
**
It is not about shouting. A person can claim that racism is good. They can hold that view firmly. They can be sincere. None of that proves their position is correct.Ask a staunch pro-life (do you mean pro-life here or pro-choice?) person what the “truth” is and they will say the
You’re right Limerick, I did mess up and reverse them - Thanks -
For Steve GC
Now to the other respondant - you have obviously not understood or decided not to acknowledge my point. As a staunch Catholic, you say that your “truth” is “the only truth” - my point was that just as you believe that your truth is the only “truth”, possibly because the Pontiff in Rome has declared so -so do other’'s believe that their “truth” is the only truth. Since you believe yours to be the only “truth” you say that it is the truth and only truth and it is not something that can be debated. But to those that do not agree with you, such as a pro choice person, they will say that the truth that is undeniable possibly because the government backs them is that a woman’s body is her own and anything regarding her body including a pregnancy is her choice to decide how to deal with and no one else’s-
I understand that you believe with everything that you know that this Catholic “truth” is the one and only truth and is not subjective but absolute- but I submit to you that the por-choice person believes just as firmly that his/her truth is the one and only correct “truth” - in this case it has to be said that truth is not objective - let’s take that word - objective when I look it up it says “Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices:” - obviously you are influenced by a personal prejudice being your faith and the way you believe - at the same time, the pro choice person’s truth is objective because of the way his/her life has gone and what he/she believes.
I completely understand that you believe your “truth” to be the absolute and undeniable truth -and I have to admire someone for feeling so strongly-- but to other’s your “truth” is what they see as a wrong belief just as you see their “truth” as a belief that is wrong. And no matter how loud you shout that your “truth” is absolute and they are completely wrong about it and will likely be introuble with God for not seeing that your version of the “truth” is absolute and undeniable, the pro choice person will not change his/her view -at least not as long as it is just shouted at them that your "truth is correct and thier “truth” is wrong. If you think about it, this pro choice person believes just as staunchly as you do that their “truth” is the one and only undeniable “truth”.
This reminds me of a movie I once saw where someone said “show me an army that doesn’t believe that God is on their side and I’ll show you the loosing side” - any participant in a battle believes that his side is the righteous side or that God is on their side. Trying to convince them by yelling “you’re wrong” is not going to help one side or the other believe that they’re wrong. My point is if you want to change people’s beliefs than find a better way than just yelling at them they are wrong and showing pictures of late term abortions - those tactics simply don’t work - find another way.
You are mistaken. Something that is True is True whether one person or a hundred believe it. A subjective truth may say that the leaves of a tree are green, but that is true only so far as perception allows. That same tree however, is a tree whether anyone is there to perceives it or not.Some on here say that their “truth” that abortion is the murdering of someone and never, ever the correct thing to do say that this “truth” is absolute. But this is their Catholic “truth”. They seem to believe that because someone in Rome has proclaimend this decided that it is truth, that it should be for everyone in every circumstance at any given time.
This would of course not be truth. First, a woman does not have the absolute right to do what she will with her body. For instance, a woman who chooses to cut off her arm would be fit for the insane asylum. Further, she does not have the right to extinguish the life of the unborn child withing her. Not her body.Ask a staunch pro-life person what the “truth” is and they will say the truth is that a woman has a right to do what she will with her body and anything in her body and they will also note that they must be right because the government believes this “truth” as well since Roe V. Wade allowed abortion.
Also, it was said by Maple Oak
If this is true than with your ideology, you should have no problem with a woman having a doctor take out a 2 month old pregnancy and if it can live it lives and if it does not thrive than it does not.Neither did I indicate anywhere that you did. The correct answer though is that the unborn are not one with the mother.
Believe it or not, ‘Fear of the Lord’ is a gift of the Holy Spirit.**Fear is a lack of faith in God. When I deny God’s ability and willingness to bring me through a trial I sin.
That’s the way I see it. You don’t think denial of God’s power is sinful?
Limerick**
**Did you not read my post? Before birth: embryo, later fetus. After birth: baby.Then what is it? And when does it become a baby? When is it not okay to kill?
When you know a woman that becomes pregnant, do you talk to her about the life within her? Or do you ignore the fact that she is pregnant until that magic date that says it is now a baby?
And on the other side of life, when is an old person no longer an old person and therefore it becomes okay to kill them?
Oh O.K, so I don’t understand how someone can justify killing a human. That better?**A fetus, though human, is not yet a baby.
Limerick**
Are you open to the truth - the objective truth - that not everyone agrees with you on this point?It is not about shouting. A person can claim that racism is good. They can hold that view firmly. They can be sincere. None of that proves their position is correct.
The change that you speak of will not come about through any one argument or any one tone. The change comes from the Holy Spirit. It requires being open to what is true. As they say the truth will only be accepted to the degree one is open to what is true.