The Right to Choose

[Eddie_Mac]

I agree that the Church nowhere “outlaws” capital punishment. However, as a matter of prudential judgment, the Church envisions no reasonable justification in applying it where prisons can effectively shield the innocent public from these killers.

I’ve heard the argument that they can continue to kill in prison. But this is a strawman, in my opinion, unless you believe that the death penalty should be applied to people convicted of much less than murder. Prison murders are not monopolized by people who’ve killed before. If the reason for application is to protect even those working as guards in the prison sytem, then where do you draw the line? Drug dealers who have never killed before certainly have been known to kill in prison. So have gang members who go up on lesser charges. Do we automatically execute all of these people, too, since we know that they stand a good chance of graduating to the level of cold-blooded killer once behind bars? Why stop at murderers? We can certainly deter all murders in prison by simply executing all prisoners.

It is not a straw man argument.

If you are going to defend your position, do so without the extreme examples. Of course you don’t sentence everyone to death just like you don’t sentence people to prison for a traffic ticket. A traffic offense in Texas is a criminal offense btw, not civil.

You claim that prisons shield the innocent. Think about what you are saying.

Are other non-violent prisoners or prison guards deserving of murder? Are they deserving of rape too?

Seriously, you realy need a better defense than the one you are using because it ain’t makin’ it.

Eddie Mac

 

[kage_ar]

Ka egr
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
.

That is a quote from the Church. It is the teaching of the Church, not my or anyone’s opinion. I accept this teaching.

Would you please answer the questions that I have asked you in two places?

One, do you accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church as binding teaching, if not, why?

Do you accept that God is absolute God of all?

 

[limerick]

Are you open to the truth - the objective truth - that not everyone agrees with you on this point?

Limerick

Magdelaine: *"What you posted wasn’t a question, it was a statement … " *

Jeez, it looked like a question … it had a question mark at the end of it … it even had the feel and tone of a question. I was truly asking fix’s opinion on the subject.

You remind me of my uncle W. Every time we said the blessing before dinner he would rush to the end of it like it was some sort of contest. Interesting. Kind of.

Limerick

 

[magdelaine]

Argument based on emotion rather than reason.

People are protected by such a thing as the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Do you disagree with these documents? The answer to your question however is no. The Church teaches that it is never licit to kill an innocent human being. That goes for the unborn as well. You cannot justify killing the unborn with ridiculous examples of a flawed judicial system. It remains an intrinsic evil.

Mapleoak, I think you seriously misunderstood Rye’s comments, which are about the death penalty, not abortion. She makes a good point, in favor of the Church’s teaching on the death penalty, I might add.

 

[magdelaine]

Magdelaine: *"What you posted wasn’t a question, it was a statement … " *

Jeez, it looked like a question … it had a question mark at the end of it … it even had the feel and tone of a question. I was truly asking fix’s opinion on the subject.

You remind me of my uncle W. Every time we said the blessing before dinner he would rush to the end of it like it was some sort of contest. Interesting. Kind of.

Limerick

Limerick, deal with it. I guess that’s what we have to do when we’re all sitting at the same table.

FWIW, I didn’t answer the question for Fix. I pointed out that your premise was false prima facie.

 

[mapleoak]

Mapleoak, I think you seriously misunderstood Rye’s comments, which are about the death penalty, not abortion. She makes a good point, in favor of the Church’s teaching on the death penalty, I might add.

To tell you the truth, in hind sight what I was replying to was not even Rye’s words. She was quoting someone else and it can be extremely difficult at times to differentiate what she wrote.

 

[limerick]

Limerick, deal with it. I guess that’s what we have to do when we’re all sitting at the same table.

FWIW, I didn’t answer the question for Fix. I pointed out that your premise was false prima facie.

The “premise was false prima facie”: on first appearance. Sometimes it pays to give more than a cursory glance at what posters are trying to convey.

And how have you come to the conclusion that you and I are “sitting at the same table”? Certainly not from any angle that I can think of except that we are both breathing.

Limerick

 

[magdelaine]

The “premise was false prima facie”: on first appearance. Sometimes it pays to give more than a cursory glance at what posters are trying to convey.

And how have you come to the conclusion that you and I are “sitting at the same table”? Certainly not from any angle that I can think of except that we are both breathing.

Limerick

ROFLOL…of course you would interpret it that way!

pri⋅ma fa⋅ci⋅e
   /ˈpraɪmə ˈfeɪʃiˌi, ˈfeɪʃi, ˈfeɪʃə, ˈpri-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prahy-muh fey-shee-ee, fey-shee, fey-shuh, pree-] Show IPA
–noun

1. at first appearance; at first view, before investigation.
   2. plain or clear; self-evident; obvious.

I intended 2., in case you were wondering.

Are we not both on this forum?

Forum synonyms:
assembly, colloquium, conclave, conference, congregation, congress, convention, convocation, council, gathering, get-together, rally, seminar, symposium, round-table

Since we are, I guess you will have to put up with me.

 

[limerick]

ROFLOL…of course you would interpret it that way!
I intended 2., in case you were wondering.

Are we not both on this forum? Since we are, I guess you will have to put up with me.

**
It is my understanding the the dictionary definition that appears first, number one**, the primary definition, is the preferred definition. You very obviously interpreted my statement before investigation and without any discernible interest in my intent. Fine; I’m used to that on this forum.

I don’t have to put up with you. The ignore button: all-powerful.

Limerick

 

[magdelaine]

Limerick,

Have it your way. Peace be with you. God bless.

 

[ryecroft]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryecroft
Ka egr
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
.

That is a quote from the Church. It is the teaching of the Church, not my or anyone’s opinion. I accept this teaching.

Would you please answer the questions that I have asked you in two places?

One, do you accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church as binding teaching, if not, why?

Do you accept that God is absolute God of all?

Wow, how shall I begin…
let’s begin with your quote - now it does not say that it is never necessary, but that it is very rare - if not practically non -existant.
All I did was to support what that quote said - but by referring to Ted Bundy I sited a point where it was necessary to execute someone to keep him from getting out and killing more - so I’m not sure what the problem is with this…

The two questions you asked - by asking the second question, are you trying to be heretical by questioning if there is another God? I assume that you wern’t trying to do this but I will suppose that you expect your two questions not to truly be independant of the other.
I do believe in one God and that He is the in my view the absolute God of all. (Does that mean I’m going to try to shove His existance down an unbelievers throat? No) And at one time I may have accepted the Cathecism not unlike many of my genereation. The Cathecism was written dowm some 15 years ago but it didn’t begin with when the book came out. Years before then the “rules” were being written out. And this was a time when there were far less people and arguably far less oportunites for them. Of course now we are in a society in which two income families are the norm if not often completely necessary. Women in this society put off childbirth in favour of careers for 10 - 15 to even 20 years after getting out of highschool or college and getting married. This has added to the rise in the use of birth control with not all postivie results but by all means not completely negative results either. This is how our society has evolved and it doesn’t seem as the clocks will turn back anytime in the near future. Now these two income families, many of them are Catholic and although they agree with many parts of the Catholic Church, studies show that between (depending on the study) somewhere between50 and 80% of Catholics do not agree with its stance on artificial birth control methods.
Personally we tried using non artificial birith conrol means but medically it was not a fit and we have gotten permission from the Church to use it due to double effect because of medical need. Of course this does also deal with the problem of birth control for us.
The situation of AFB for Catholics is something I do have a problem with as the Church offers little other effective means for not getting pregnant or even just spacing children to couples - I understand there are those that believe in NFP and it’s workings -my particular circle of friends is littered with couples who have seriously tried NFP, stuck with it even through the base line readings and still gotten pregnant-I understand that is not everyone on NFP and I’m not trying to get an NFP debate going- You made a comment earlier I believe that matrimony mean to make a mother - within the ranks of Catholics that I personally know if I were to ask why did you get married, the answer emphatically would not be “so we could go out get pregnant and have a house full of kids…” it would be “because I love my husband/wife and I wanted to spend my life with him/her”. But again that’s a whole other debate.
What caused my greatest disillusionment with the Church and its’ teachings was when at just four month pregnant I became very ill, kidney going into failure - then I began loosing blood and a decision had to be made. Later I was told that according to the Church I had made the wrong decision. As far as I am concerned that is an opinion. I can not in good concience agree with a teaching or belief that states it would have been better for both to die than to have one live. I’ve had a priest agree with me as well- the only reason I respond to this is beacuse you seem insistant on an answer. To say that two dead is better than one alive is completely and utterly wrong to believe and I refuse to feel guilty or as if I have done something wrong because of it - sad that it happened yes - but to feel that I committed a sin for wanting to live? - not in a million years. So yes I do believe in God but do I believe everything the Catechism states being completely and correctly what God says -no, I don’t completely belive it and there are a large number of Catholics out there that agree with me. You can say that we’re not really Catholics but if that’s the case you need to have the priests at church shout it out - because I have the feeling that you as a lay person are much more judgemental than they ever would be. The slogan for many pro-lifers is “choose life” and with every fiber in my being I know I did because I am still here to talk about it.

 

[kage_ar]

To the CCC.

You may find it interesting that the current CCC is just one of many that have been put together over these many years. The word Catechism means teaching. The current CCC and the earlier approved Catechisms have all just been easy references for the teachings of the Church.

When you look at the Catechism, there are footnotes that link you to the full official documents that explain the teaching in detail.

Have you taken time to research the history of the teachings you do not accept?

Do you know that abortion is forbidden in the earliest church documents?

That the church has never approved any artificial birth control - not since Jesus walked the earth? That the Jewish faith before and through Jesus lifetime did not permit abortion or birth control?

My question about accepting that God is God.

If God is God, then, what he says is truth. That truth applies to every man woman and child who ever lived or will ever live on the face of this planet. Either he is God or he is not. You acknowledge and love him as God, that is a huge thing. The next step is to find where he reveals truth. Pray, God WILL lead you there.

 

[scalesre]

Ryecroft, I would like to add my humble comments in the hope that they will shed some light on some of the seemingly callous posts you have received.

1. An unborn child, at the moment of conception, is a human person with a soul.

“Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person… (CCC 2270). This is the cornerstone of the Catholic position on abortion. I don’t know whether you agree with this or not, but you need to UNDERSTAND it to move on to #2.

1. Therefore an unborn child has the same right to life that a born child has. Just as you would not kill your born child to save your life, you cannot kill your unborn child to save your life.

Would you kill, or have someone else kill your born child if doing so would save your life? Even if your child was going to die anyway? Since Catholics (should) believe #1 above, we understand that aborting an unborn child is no different than killing a born child.

The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is ALWAYS wrong because it is the direct, intentional taking of an INNOCENT life. Even in those rare and dangerous cases like yours (I have read and understand the life/death position you and your child were in). Sometimes there is no easy answer, only extremely difficult decisions that have to be made quickly with the resources at hand. I cannot pass judgment on you, only God can.

I am not asking that you agree or believe this, just that you understand it so that you can better understand the position of many here that say you were wrong in what you did.

I hope this helps.

My advance apologies in my presumption to speak for others.

---

The most important thing a father can do for his children is love their Mother.
~ Theodore Hesburgh

 

[TheWhoFreak]

kage_ar;5115560:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryecroft

. The slogan for many pro-lifers is “choose life” and with every fiber in my being I know I did because I am still here to talk about it.

Doncha just love irony?

 

[ryecroft]

1. Therefore an unborn child has the same right to life that a born child has. Just as you would not kill your born child to save your life, you cannot kill your unborn child to save your life.

Would you kill, or have someone else kill your born child if doing so would save your life? Even if your child was going to die anyway? Since Catholics (should) believe #1 above, we understand that aborting an unborn child is no different than killing a born child

You’re talking about a child that could survive - I don’t know what my decision would have been had we been a couple months down the road - but I was not about to give my life when it would not save the fetus’ life. There seems to be this idea (and I’m not saying that you necessarily have it) but I get mail about it asking well wh y didn’t you just let them hook you up to life support while the fetus continued to gestate? First of all when I’m asked that it makes me believe that my life isn’t worth as much as the outliying possibility that a fetus might be able to gestate for three more months in my lifeless all be it technically living body - also the assumption that it’s always a possibility to “hook someone up” to life support to keep a fetus alive I have been told by my doctors is somewhere around a 10% chance and had I continued, the trauma my body would have endured from the hemmoraging continuing would have killed the fetus anyway. The Church needs to look at these kind of situations because I see no good coming of not only the fetus dying but also the mother. As I’ve said, I regret what had to be done but I will not feel guilty for wanting to live. And personally, the Lord that I believe in would feel the same way. This is the trouble with issues being taken as black and white - there is ALWAYS a grey area whether some people like to admit/believe it or not. And I know that my family backs me and my children will be glad to hear that I didn’t choose to die for no good reason. This leads to another topic which is just a bit off of the main topic and that is that I believe and I know many others also believe that the Church needs to give more options to couples like my husband and myself - for those that NFP is not a workable option for and for those that don’t happen to have a loophole through which they can take the pill for other health reasons. Is every woman who cannot use NFP and who will be risking her life if she gets pregnant at the wrong time just supposed to “roll with the punches” and hope that all goes well? I’m all for believing that God will help out but I believe even more that God helps those that help themselves and that is why all of these other types of birth control have come out. I will never believe it to be a mortal sin that those who need to use birth control for medical reasons - it’s wonderful if NFP works for you and I know there are many on here for which that is true -that’s great for them - but there are still many for whom going through multiple doctors with the Pope Paul institute is not an option and even some that have gone to Catholic pro life doctors who have not been able to get anything other than “the only things we can tell you will work don’t go along with the Catholic faith…” at least that’s what I’ve dealt with. I pray daily that we’ll be able to increase the size of our family SAFELY and that I won’t have to deal with some of the problems I’ve dealt with before. I also wonder why if God wanted me to go by all the rules and have lots of kids then why did He allow me to have all of these health problems.
God Bless

 

[TheWhoFreak]

1. Therefore an unborn child has the same right to life that a born child has. Just as you would not kill your born child to save your life, you cannot kill your unborn child to save your life.

Precisely.

Would you kill, or have someone else kill your born child if doing so would save your life? Even if your child was going to die anyway? Since Catholics (should) believe #1 above, we understand that aborting an unborn child is no different than killing a born child

Never. I would trust God with the outcome, because He is in control of everything. So I would trust the outcome to His will.

You’re talking about a child that could survive - I don’t know what my decision would have been had we been a couple months down the road - but I was not about to give my life when it would not save the fetus’ life.

You don’t know that you or the child would have died. You just had what the doctors told you. God may have had other plans.

There seems to be this idea (and I’m not saying that you necessarily have it) but I get mail about it asking well wh y didn’t you just let them hook you up to life support while the fetus continued to gestate? First of all when I’m asked that it makes me believe that my life isn’t worth as much as the outliying possibility that a fetus might be able to gestate for three more months in my lifeless all be it technically living body - also the assumption that it’s always a possibility to “hook someone up” to life support to keep a fetus alive I have been told by my doctors is somewhere around a 10% chance and had I continued, the trauma my body would have endured from the hemmoraging continuing would have killed the fetus anyway. The Church needs to look at these kind of situations because I see no good coming of not only the fetus dying but also the mother.

The Church has looked into these situations. THE ANSWER REMAINS THE SAME. For the Church to have the stance it does on abortion, it would have to look into many possibilities.

As I’ve said, I regret what had to be done but I will not feel guilty for wanting to live. And personally, the Lord that I believe in would feel the same way.

Personally, I think the Lord would find it honorable to make the choice that favored the child. I think that if Jesus were here he would call your actions cowardly and selfish. That’s my opinion as well.

This is the trouble with issues being taken as black and white - there is ALWAYS a grey area whether some people like to admit/believe it or not. And I know that my family backs me and my children will be glad to hear that I didn’t choose to die for no good reason.

They would be happy to hear you killed a potential brother or sister?

Peace

 

[traillius]

I think it would be safe to say that you love yourself more than your ( aborted, I assume ) unborn child, fetus if you prefer ( embryo, zygote? ) If you don’t love your unborn child more than yourself, its unlikely that you would be able to love Jesus more than yourself. you have the ability to choose anything, although not the right ( No rights, for instance to fly planes into buildings ) rights are not abilities. Thankfully love will conquer all. May God have mercy on our souls.

 

[ryecroft]

You don’t know that you or the child would have died. You just had what the doctors told you. God may have had other plans.
the who freak

Yes, actually we do know that I would have died and we do know that had they tried to have me “deliver” the fetus it also would have died-these were not doctor’s opinions these were facts-I waited as long as I could and did almost die - no good comes from two deaths - I grant you that if some huge miracle would have happened then perhaps I would not have lost my life - and I’ll respect your opinion of what we HAD to do when you’ve dealt with it until then anyone who says that they would have done differently is just paying lip service-you have the Doctor telling you and your spouse (as I was in and out of it from blood loss and shock) that you may have waited too long for your spouse to live and that the only one that can be helped right now is your wife - so don’t you dare judge me-as I have said before - it was unfortunate that I even had to go through this let alone that it happened but I won’t feel guilty for wanting to live - the pro life motto is often “choose life” - well, I did.

and for the person that said I love myself more than a four month old fetus - it had nothing to do with love - it had to do with preservation of life and seeing no good or love coming from the fetus death and my death - as far as the brothers and sisters - yes, I believe they will be happy to know their mother and father and doctors were wise enough not to let their mother die for no good reason!
By the way - both of you are right - those are just YOUR opinions

 

[mangy_dog]

• Life belongs to God who is the lifegiver.
• Life begins at conception.
• Abortion is murder

-Murder is a mortal sin.

-When sin is mature and gives birth…it gives birth to death.

-Un-repented mortal sin depletes the soul of its grace.

-Repentance is impossible without grace.

-A person dying in a state of mortal sin continues to exist eternally incapable of repentance.

-God is merciful…while you are still on earth, seek His forgiveness.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

You don’t know that you or the child would have died. You just had what the doctors told you. God may have had other plans.
the who freak

I’ll respect your opinion of what we HAD to do when you’ve dealt with it until then anyone who says that they would have done differently is just paying lip service-