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aggiecatholic05
Guest
if you didnt get it, then you probably didnt actually get my earlier post either. i suggest jumping back a couple few pages and rereading in context. that usually clears things up for me when i get lost in a thread.
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fix
Guest
Yes, direct abortion is always wrong no more the culpability, or not, of those involved. That is Catholic teaching.
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ahollars
Guest
Here goes…
ryecroft, there is a list of problems with your argument. For starters:
You have no idea what some of us have gone through… You’re not alone.
ryecroft, there is a list of problems with your argument. For starters:
- You said that you couldn’t leave your husband a widower. I beg to differ. Any parent will always sacrifice themselves for the sake of their children. We choose to do so for the unborn, because we believe they are not expendable, but we are. You didn’t trust God to do the right thing by you. Remember, Jesus also said, “Seek first the kingdom of God, and all else will be given to you.” He would never lay a cross on your shoulders that you couldn’t carry. This is tantamount to sending someone to hell. We send ourselves. Also remember, “I will never forsake you, I will not leave you orphaned, I will never forget my own.” It is not for you to decide whether or not your husband can or cannot live without you. Yes, I can say this. My wife and I are both military veterans, and she would never have blamed God if something had happened to me.
- You’ve been on ABC since 13. Let me guess, you started the pill to regulate your period since it was crippling you at that age. Didn’t you know that’s the oldest trick in the ABC playbook by doctors? If you were on that many years, did it ever occur to you that there would be side effects? My wife was on Depo-Provera for two years when I met her, and now she has permanent bone loss, sciatica, avascular neucrosis, and has had one hip-replacement to date. Blame your doctor, but the ABC was probably the cause of your current condition.
- Aquainus and Augustine were not popes. They were never infallible. The issue of ensoulment was restricted to knowledge at the time. The Church was not given all the answers at Pentecost. We must always continue to grow in our understanding of God’s mysteries, and we will never know everything in this life. To use their arguments to justify yourself today is equivalent to saying, “The earth isn’t round, because Jesus didn’t say it was.” (Remember what happened to the people who did say that?)
You have no idea what some of us have gone through… You’re not alone.
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aggiecatholic05
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i dont think you could have put that any better, i doubt anyone could have. excellent post
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limerick
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To the Original Poster:
The only good advice I have received on this forum regarding a past abortion is this:
Every time you think of the fetus, say a Hail Mary for the peaceful repose of his or her soul. Don’t worry about the time of ensoulment. We don’t need to know that to get relief from the grief and sorrow that can accompany abortion.
If you think of this forty times a day, say forty Hail Marys. Eventually you will think of it 30 times a day, then 20, then 10 - each time say a Hail Mary. It is my experience that we will never reach the point where we don’t think of the abortion, but through prayer we can alleviate much of the suffering that comes with having had to face down the decision to abort, having to experience the abortion, and then having to endure the haughty judgment that comes from outside sources when we want or need to explore it and grow through it. If we pray for the unborn from a standpoint of authentic humility, this relief will be a byproduct of that communion with God.
This is a radically conservative, by-the-Book forum where most posters not only fail to color outside the lines but don’t even get near the lines with the crayon. They believe what they believe, and they believe they know they are right. There is absolutely no use putting your experiences before them if you are looking for absolution or understanding. Neither is in great supply on this topic.
They will throw your “cafeteria tray” at your head and then follow it with a smiley face, as if that will take some of the sting out of their righteousness. I recommend you follow your conscience - the one God gave you, not the one you are looking for on Catholic Answers Forum. You do not need these middle men to prop you up on your walk to redemption.
My abortion was almost four decades ago. I think it makes sense to keep my feelings and my insights surrounding the experience to myself, with God as my only confidante. He knows the circumstances. He knows everything about it. I trust Him. These posters are bountifully opinionated; some are knowledgeable and some are just hateful. If you want to explore this further, see a priest or decide that perhaps Catholicism is too restrictive for you.
They will tell you that you need them, that you need uberCatholicism. What do you think? Is God alone enough?
Limerick
The only good advice I have received on this forum regarding a past abortion is this:
Every time you think of the fetus, say a Hail Mary for the peaceful repose of his or her soul. Don’t worry about the time of ensoulment. We don’t need to know that to get relief from the grief and sorrow that can accompany abortion.
If you think of this forty times a day, say forty Hail Marys. Eventually you will think of it 30 times a day, then 20, then 10 - each time say a Hail Mary. It is my experience that we will never reach the point where we don’t think of the abortion, but through prayer we can alleviate much of the suffering that comes with having had to face down the decision to abort, having to experience the abortion, and then having to endure the haughty judgment that comes from outside sources when we want or need to explore it and grow through it. If we pray for the unborn from a standpoint of authentic humility, this relief will be a byproduct of that communion with God.
This is a radically conservative, by-the-Book forum where most posters not only fail to color outside the lines but don’t even get near the lines with the crayon. They believe what they believe, and they believe they know they are right. There is absolutely no use putting your experiences before them if you are looking for absolution or understanding. Neither is in great supply on this topic.
They will throw your “cafeteria tray” at your head and then follow it with a smiley face, as if that will take some of the sting out of their righteousness. I recommend you follow your conscience - the one God gave you, not the one you are looking for on Catholic Answers Forum. You do not need these middle men to prop you up on your walk to redemption.
My abortion was almost four decades ago. I think it makes sense to keep my feelings and my insights surrounding the experience to myself, with God as my only confidante. He knows the circumstances. He knows everything about it. I trust Him. These posters are bountifully opinionated; some are knowledgeable and some are just hateful. If you want to explore this further, see a priest or decide that perhaps Catholicism is too restrictive for you.
They will tell you that you need them, that you need uberCatholicism. What do you think? Is God alone enough?
Limerick
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vames
Guest
I don’t understand why abortion should be illegal in cases where the mother’s life is at stake. To ban abortion in such cases means to legiferate that some lives are more worthy than others, which is unfair. St. Gianna is a saint because she freely chose to sacrifice her life for her baby; otherwise, she would have been simply a victim of the law. There is not such thing as a state (country) where killing the baby is mandatory in such situations - so why killing the mother should be mandatory?
In a medical situation where the doctor, the woman and the woman’s relatives are constrained to choose between mother and fetus (and presuming the fetus can be saved if the mother dies, which is very different anyway from the lose-lose situation described by Ryecroft), to forbid by law the choice between the two lives would be oppressive. Of course there can be abuses, wrong medical verdicts, fear of malpractice accusations, but these ones shouldn’t make the legislators deny the woman the chance to survive. If she or her family decides that she won’t make use of this right, this is another story and has to do with one’s conscience.
The discussion regarding the moment of ensouling is irrelevant. A woman that has been pregnant (even if she had aborted the baby) knows that inside her was a living human being, not a sub-human, half alive alien creature. That’s why the thought of abortion is such painful for a mother and sometimes remains painful for years and decades afterwards, even if a religion or a clerk teaches that ensouling takes place after 60, 90 or 120 days, even if she has confessed and repented and even if other people say that inside her was only a cluster of cells.
Thank you, Limerick, for your kind, compassionate words.
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ryecroft
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I appreciate some of what you’ve said - I don’t agree with it all, of course. I’m not sure about the military comment - I’ve been military since I was born and then at 25 married into it - yes I could have lost my husband and I would have gone on, but I know that if there was anything I could do to save my husband I would have, just as he would do almost anything to save me -I have no doubt he could go one without me-but there was no reason for that to hapen- and if I don’t have to die, I’m not going to willingly go- you also said that a parent will “always” sacrifice themselves for the sake of the children - obviously my husband didn’t want me sacrificed for a miniscule chance of an almost 4 month pregnancy/child however you like to phrase it to continue; I know many others that would do the same in this kind of situation - apparently, not you - but that’s YOUR CHOICE - Some of what you have said about not trusting in God/Jesus reminds me of a joke I think everyone knows - it’s the one about the man in the flood - it begins to rain really hard and the flood begins - the man prays to God for help - a little later a man in a pontoon boat comes by and says, hey get in, I’ll take you away from the flood where it’s safe - the man says, No God will save me - the fellow stays at the house while the water rises and continues to pray for God to save him - then another boater comes by and tells him, please get in, if you stay here you’re going to die - the man in the house who is now looking out his 2nd story window says, “no, God will save me from this flood, don’t worry about me” so that boater goes off to help others - the water continues to rise and the man has to go to the roof - then a helicopter comes and throws down a basket to try to save him from drowning - the fellow on the roof says “no go save someone else, God will come and save me, you don’t need to” The helicopter flies off to help someone else and the man then winds up drowning - when he gets to the after life, the man asks God, why didn’t you come down and save me? and of course God says, I sent a pontoon, a boat and a helicopter and you refused them all how else could I have tried to save you?
I think we’ve all heard that. God helps those who help themselves - I truely feel that if I had continued with the pregnancy and died, I would have gone before God and God would have said, I sent you all kinds of different doctors telling you not only would your child die but that you would too and now your husband is without a wife and your child is also dead - how else did you want me to show you to save yourself?" I have stated before that for most cases I think that abortion being used as a means of birthcontrol is wrong - I get it, that many of you disagree - but as I have stated before, it was a sad situation, but I will not feel guilty about it - so please stop sending me pm’s and e-mails trying to get me to go talk to some priest at priests for life or go to some retreat with rachel’s vineyard - those are of no use to me or my husband. And for those of you that have been responding so deffinately and with such judgement, I truely pray that when your time comes and you’'re in front of the Almighty, the He doesn’t judge you with as many dogmatic rules and with as much vehemence and lack of caring for the circumstances you were in - and I mean that - I don’t believe that God is only concerned with the balck and white of an issue as many of you seem to think - I believe that He understands that there are many areas that are not just black and white but that are grey -
and specifically jkpreece you said that it is “always” not the truth that there is never a situation where this could happen and that the Doctor’s lied to me - you don’t know all the facts and you have no right to accuse my Doctors of having lied to me - with the time we had to make decisions the best possible decision was made and as I said, it was sad but nothing my husband or I feels guilt about.
I really don’t understand why many on here seem to believe that every woman that has an abortion is really a woman breaking inside and really a woman that is just racked with guilt - that just simply is NOT true - don’t get me wrong, I’m glad those that need it have the Rachel’s vineyard retreat but that doesn’t mean that every Catholic woman that has had an abortion needs to or wants to participate in it or is really aching inside or waking up with horrible dreams about the abortion - I’ve read what some people go through after one and I feel sorry for them that they’re going through that but it’s not every woman.
God Bless and have a wonderful Eastertide
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ahollars
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Okay, I knew you were going to say that. That’s why I bolded the words in my own post. You keep calling it a choice, and that you didn’t have to die. I am not a doctor, but I speak from experience when I tell you it’s amazing how much different information you can get from a OB/GYN who actually has a pro-life practice. They are few and far between, but if you can find one, dump your current doctor and switch. You’ll be amazed at what you can find out when you begin from the assumption that the patient is not interested in ABC or abortion.
What ever has happened to you, I’m assuming the damage was permanent, and you’re afraid it will likely happen again. Without specifics, I cannot comment further. I cannot tell you that you should or would have died. But the treatment for you shouldn’t have been stopped because you were pregnant. That is what the church refers to by “accidental miscarriage”.
BTW, babies are resilient in the womb. My wife was 1 month pregnant when she found out she had gallstones. She on some powerful pain killers, antibiotics, and towards the end had steriods to speed development of the baby, and had several x-rays because her gallstones gave her pancreatitis, a disease with no cure that must simply run its course. They couldn’t remove her gall bladder until she delivered. Imagine being seven months pregnant and not being able to eat for five days!!! My daughter showed up a month premature, but fine, and she’s okay now at 5 (I think
).The problem with your statements is that you didn’t stop with just the abortion. You are also trying to justify the ABC (which you didn’t address in your first reply). That’s is why people here are having the reaction they are, including me. The two are related, even if you don’t see it. NFP is there for a reason, and no, it’s not 100%. If God wants you to have a child, then He’ll throw off your cycle. I can vouch for that as well.
My wife’s lifespan is now shorter than mine. I try not to think about it, but I will have to face it someday. She could have had an abortion and avoided the last part which could have been fatal. But we trusted God, because we are mindful everyday that we must ask ourselves if we are doing His will, and no, that doesn’t mean staying out of trouble. It’s more than that. I hope you can find that peace in trust if you haven’t yet.
Enjoy your Easter with the family. Peace be with you.
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ryecroft
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O.K. - I get what you’re saying - and I’m glad your wife didn’t die. You brought up my use of ABC - yes I use it - and I’m not trying to justify it - I don’t have to - we’ve already gone, talked to the priest and found we don’t have to worry if we’re being sinful because it comes under that heading of seconday - I talk about it in some of the earlier posts. We did try NFP - and unfortunately that was why we were forced to make a decision - we got our base line prior to marriage (my baseline anyway) and we stuck to it like glue - and still it failed us twice - not to mention the fact that I was back having to get transfusions - even if the 2nd pregnancy on NFP hadn’t happened we still would have been going back to using the birth control because of the excessive bleeding.Okay, I knew you were going to say that. That’s why I bolded the words in my own post. You keep calling it a choice, and that you didn’t have to die. I am not a doctor, but I speak from experience when I tell you it’s amazing how much different information you can get from a OB/GYN who actually has a pro-life practice. They are few and far between, but if you can find one, dump your current doctor and switch. You’ll be amazed at what you can find out when you begin from the assumption that the patient is not interested in ABC or abortion.
What ever has happened to you, I’m assuming the damage was permanent, and you’re afraid it will likely happen again. Without specifics, I cannot comment further. I cannot tell you that you should or would have died. But the treatment for you shouldn’t have been stopped because you were pregnant. That is what the church refers to by “accidental miscarriage”.
BTW, babies are resilient in the womb. My wife was 1 month pregnant when she found out she had gallstones. She on some powerful pain killers, antibiotics, and towards the end had steriods to speed development of the baby, and had several x-rays because her gallstones gave her pancreatitis, a disease with no cure that must simply run its course. They couldn’t remove her gall bladder until she delivered. Imagine being seven months pregnant and not being able to eat for five days!!! My daughter showed up a month premature, but fine, and she’s okay now at 5 (I think
The problem with your statements is that you didn’t stop with just the abortion. You are also trying to justify the ABC (which you didn’t address in your first reply). That’s is why people here are having the reaction they are, including me. The two are related, even if you don’t see it. NFP is there for a reason, and no, it’s not 100%. If God wants you to have a child, then He’ll throw off your cycle. I can vouch for that as well.
My wife’s lifespan is now shorter than mine. I try not to think about it, but I will have to face it someday. She could have had an abortion and avoided the last part which could have been fatal. But we trusted God, because we are mindful everyday that we must ask ourselves if we are doing His will, and no, that doesn’t mean staying out of trouble. It’s more than that. I hope you can find that peace in trust if you haven’t yet.
Enjoy your Easter with the family. Peace be with you.
I’m really sorry that your wife probably won’t live as long as you will (I say probably because you could get in a car accident or something, God Forbid) - and I’m glad you can trust that all will be well if you just turn it to God. When things started going badly with the pregnancies, I did turn it to God - I had turned it to God earlier of course and I honestly believe that he made sure that he had Doctors that were capable of keeping me alive there to be used as a tool - it’s like the flood story I told earlier - He helps those that help themselves - I really believe he would have said something like - I sent you all those Doctors and they could have saved you - what else did you want Me to do? So for this we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Again thank you to all those who posted - i’m cleaning some of the pm’s i’ve gotten out because my box overfloweth - your wife is lucky that she lived and is able to enjoy her children and so are you. When the doctors tell us we can try again fairly safely, then we’ll try again - until then, we will not take unnecessary chances on NFP - regardless of the type. I guess we’re just in that 1 -2 % of people who it doesn’t work for - and before someone tells me to get in touch with certain people - we worked with quite a few before we gave up on it - we just could not afford to hae another “accident” occur when we followed the rules to the T.
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ryecroft
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kage_ar
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What will you do if you are one of the 2 - 5 % for whom the pill fails?
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human_being
Guest
I think that most people would think it’s fine for people to make laws to prevent people from killing one another so why isn’t it fine to have laws on this issue. Why is it fine for the church to support laws on stealing and killing and raping and pillaging. That is what the church is for Tthe guidance to get our souls to heaven and treat people with dignity while we are here. If you don’t want to get pregnant or get somebody pregnant keep your clothes on. Even animals don’t abort their babies. I contacted Senator Arlen Spector about the FOCA issue and the rescinding of the conscience clause and he had conflicting responses to me. He thinks that abortion is a personl choice but I don’t think he sees it as a personal choice for the healthcare workers to choose not to participate in abortions. How cunningly evil and lopsided is this?
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almeras
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For anyone who is Pro Choice, I highly recommend reading the chapter on abortion in JPII’s “The Gospel of Life”, you can read it online at the Vatican’s website. It does a good job of showing the scripture basis for why abortion is wrong no matter the circumstances. As far as the right to chose, the choice comes in at the beginning of the equation not at the end IMO. The birth or abortion of a child is an effect of a root cause. Anyone who does not wish to bring a child into this world needs to make that choice before removing their clothes. I know many Pro choice supporters say what about cases of rape or health of the mother. According to statistics in 2005 (I believe the American Medical Association I posted the link on these boards before), less than 1000 abortions were due to rape or the health of the mother that still leaves over 1.2 million.
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Biggie
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Perhaps most feel that everyone should.
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ryecroft
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We would do the same thing we have always done, do our best to carry the fetus to term. Unfortunately, I have never been able to- I have miscarried multiple times (both before and after we had terminated) - we want children, but not at the cost of my life. If I were to get pregnant before the doctor said it was o.k. to, we’d still try to carry it as long as possible. I would actually like to enjoy the children we will eventually have and I know my husband doesn’t want to have to raise a child/children on his own. When we were using NFP I got pregnant twice, even though we followed it to the letter - we were told I must have had an extra ovulation or a spontainious ovulation or something like that. We didn’t just go out and abort it, I tried to carry them as long as possible but at just 4 months it was not viable outside of me, its’ health was declining and mine was tanking. I wish we would have been able to carry them longer - it just wasn’t a possibility - I hope and pray we’ll have kids successfully- I have no problem getting pregnant - carrying it to term is a nother situation.
God Bless
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limerick
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The United States does have laws on this issue. Abortion is currently protected under our laws. The Church’s place is not to design laws. It has had doctrine and dogma in place for two millenia and even further back if one considers the antiquity of Judaism.
Animals may not abort their “babies”, but under many circumstances they kill them after birth. If the pro-life position holds pre- and post-term human life as equally precious, then it certainly must apply here, too, devaluing your argument. If the offense is the same before and after birth for the human being, then it is the same before and after birth for animals. If animal life does not equal human life in value, then your argument that “even animals don’t abort their babies” is null and void.
Limerick
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ryecroft
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human being:
you talk about the church supporting laws on stealing and killing, etc and then talk about the church being there for the “guidance to get our souls to heaven and treat people with dignity…” it is not the place of the Roman Catholic Church to make rules or laws for the complete population - they may want to but they are supposed to be dealing with the Catholic population - not the rest of the population who may or may not be be Christian -there are some other Christian sects that do not want their people to have abortions - but there are others, preety closely tied to the Catholic church, such as Episcopalians that back a woman’s right to choose - even say its great that women can get abortions for almost any reason. It sounds like you think that the Catholic Church should be able to make the laws or just change the ones they don’t agree with. We all know what happened during the middle ages when the RCC was able to make and enforce laws - and it was not a pretty picture - fear seemed to be much more prominant in those times rather than love.
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jenlovesyu
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I just want to make a comment about the ABC’s you are using. This isn’t just about the Pill being a sin. It’s been deemed wrong because it is bad for your health. If you really care about your health as much as you say you do, you would immediately stop using those pills. The reason you have had so many miscarriages is because of your long term pill-usage! The pill has been linked to multiple miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and even breast cancer. Please, I say this because I am concerned for you. One of my sisters has gone through horrible situations because the pill. She has had a miscarriage AND an ectopic pregnancy that could have killed her. Please protect yourself. God bless you
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mapleoak
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Says who? Do you have an issue with Catholics exercising their American and Constitutional right to enter the voting both and vote as Catholics?
No matter how hard you try, you will not convince the Church to “get with the times”. It matters not that a bunch of other denominations may think killing the unborn is great and pleasing to God. The Catholic Church will still be holding the Truth, when you are ready to approach it for the correct answer.
Are you saying you are prepared to debate about the inquisition? Be careful! Judging by your comment above, I assure you, it won’t be pretty!
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