The Right to Choose

[Heath_Bar]

I have studied the teachings of the “magisterium” and read information ad nausium - I’m clear on what the teachings are - you said that I have failed in this obligation -I’ve read nearly everything I could get my hands on regarding this - especially when I was working on my masters work in ecclesiastical history- so I have studied what has been said in the past and what is said now so,I truely believe that I have an informed conscience so some may be able to study the teachings of the Magesterium and form an opinion in accord with the church - I have gone over the teachings ad nausm and I still feel and believe the there are situations where abortion should be allowed - since aparently with this it’s either you’re completely against abortion at all times not matter the circumstance or you’re pro choice. No inbetween or anything like that. So I have to say I am a Catholic who is pro choice - I don’t think I’ve failed - unless you mean that I failed to come to the conclusion that the church wants me to come to. In which case I agree wholeheartedly - yes I have failed to come to the same conclusion they have - and I’m not the only one.

Here is why it is a mortal sin to believe in abortion of any kind.

Does God create all life? As a Catholic, I do not believe that you can answer ‘no’ to that question.

Are all of God’s creations good? As a Catholic, how can you say “no” to that? God is perfect, God is all good, thus all of His creations are good. He is incapable of flawed creation.

Thus, all life that is created by God is good.

Is life a gift? Would God give us a bad gift? Again, if we believe that He is perfect, then He cannot give us a bad gift.

So, if God gives someone the GIFT of life, then who in the heck are we to refuse God’s gift?

“Sorry, God, I don’t want it! Your gift is an inconvenience to me! Thanks, but NO THANKS! Return to sender!”

He gave us Jesus Christ as a free and perfect gift of salvation. What happens if we refuse His gift? Damnation. If you refuse the gift of life that He created as your child, then you are comitting a mortal sin for refusing God’s gift.

Let’s look at this a little deeper. What about in the case of a mother’s life who is in danger? I used to believe as you obviously do, that abortion would be O.k. in that circumstance. Now, as a parent, I am telling you that I would sacrifice my health, my life, my entire being if my dying would give my daughter life. My wife would do the same. She is a gift from God, and if we had to die to save her, then there is no question that I would lay down my life for her. Jesus laid down His life for us. Sometimes, God calls for someone to lay down their life for someone else. Such is sometimes the case for mothers.

“Sorry, God! I refuse your gift because my wife may die. Take it back! I don’t want it!”

What if Jesus refused us God’s gift of life? What if He refused to die for someone else?

If God gives us a gift, the gift of life, and we refuse it, no matter the reason, we are rebelling against God’s will. We are saying that we know better than He does. How dare He give us a child when it is dangerous to me? As a Christian, we do not have the right to refuse a gift from God without it being a mortal sin.

 

[mlchance]

God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE…

No, God gave us the ability to choose. No one has the right to do evil.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Newbie2]

I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.

Hmmm. I’m glad to see that you admit to having a difficult time with this teaching.

Where to start?

OK, first, God did not give each and every one of us the right to choose, he gave us the ability to choose…choose, in this case, to kill an innocent.

Second, what does it matter the age of the baby (as has been pointed out)? Morally, do you see a difference in killing a 6 month old infant and killing a 6 week old fetus? Your argument that neither of them can “choose”, due to incomplete intellectual development, would support that you’d be fine with killing either one, because they cannot choose not to be killed, i.e. to object.

Third, related to the second, the “they cannot choose” argument logically extends to mentally/developmentally disabled children and adults. Are you OK with parents or others having the “right” to kill them at well as well? I should hope not.

You betcha we Catholics “seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose”, in this case to kill innocent human beings.

Answer this question: If you had the intellectual ability to object to your mother aborting you, would you have objected? If so, why do you deny that other unborn children that same right?

One more thing…even if there was a God-given “right to choose”, how do you figure a mom’s right to choose trumps the unborn’s right to live??

 

[Mike_Searson]

You’re implying that someone needs to go to confession because they have an opinion??? that’s ridiculous - If I have an opinion and don’t do anything else regarding it - how can that be sinful?

And what if a “Catholic” has an opinion that Jesus was not fully divine or not fully man? Or the opinion that the Eucharist was symbolic?

 

[stthomas]

I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.

Yes you have the God given right to choose, so chose wisely…It is either Heaven or Hell. You say you are a Pro-Cholic Catholic? There is no such thing. Catholic is ProLife, Period.

 

[Catholic90]

Right to CHOOSE what?

Life? Death?

What if I CHOOSE that I don’t like you…there are morally right things and morally wrong things I can do about that.

Killing is never a right choice.

(Killing=aborting=ending life).

You cannot be Catholic AND Prolife. (sure, some may make that claim, but they are not. I can claim to be a hamster, but that does not make me one.)

 

[stthomas]

Right to CHOOSE what?

Life? Death?

What if I CHOOSE that I don’t like you…there are morally right things and morally wrong things I can do about that.

Killing is never a right choice.

(Killing=aborting=ending life).

You cannot be Catholic AND Prolife. (sure, some may make that claim, but they are not. I can claim to be a hamster, but that does not make me one.)

Catholic90, this is a ridiculous response. You and I both know what we are talking about. If you say that you can be a Catholic in good standanding and support Pro-Choice life issues then you are not very well versed in your faith. Being Pro-Abortion is being an accomplice to the crime, thus you yourself are guilty of the murder of that child. What part of thou shalt now kill dont you understand?

 

[Biggie]

Actually, the only reason that I used the word “ensouled” was because that was the word that Thomas Aquinas used when he talking about when a pregnancy could end in good consince - granted, we can’t believe everything Aqinas said because he also said that if the woman carried a male, it was “ensouled” at 40 days, if it was a femal then it was “ensouled” at 80 days-they had some interesting ways of thinking back then. But we’re getting away from the actual question - this is legal in the US and many other countries - granted, personally I don’t think it sould be used as a form of birth control, there are far too many other ways and forms of artificial birth control that are much simpler than having an abortion. I just don’t believe that a woman if she does not want to or feels it is not in her best interest should be FORCED to CHOOSE only one way - In China, I don’t believe they should be forced to abort in certain situations - here I don’t feel that anyone has the right to make that decision but the person who is going to have to carry a fetus, pregnancy whatever you want to call it for nine months. I believe that when they die, they will have to explain themselves to God and that is more than enough justice.

I am trying to say that it is all wrong to have one - I believe that there are cases where it is necessary - or has been necessary to have one. Like anything else when time is up on Earth, if you believe in God then you believe that you’ll need to account for your actions. Personally, we’ve had to make the decision and I’m glad we were able to make that choice because I didn’t particularly want to die for the possiblity for a less than 10% chance of both of us making it in one piece. When you’ve dealt with that kind of choice then I think you’re ready to weigh in on saying “I would Never EVER Condone abortion at any time” - if your wife’s organs are petering out because her body can’t handle the extra burdern and you have to decide what to do, then come and tell me that you can say for 100% sure that you would never ever condone it.

And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%)

Dear Ryecroft, my only point as to your use of “ensouled” is that it is very apparent you have seized on what is actually at stake in an abortion. You might have simply resorted to the “clump of cells” argument, but you surely understand that a life aside from your own is at stake in abortion and want that magic point in the term before which it is not immoral to kill the infant.

We are not discussing the “legality” of the choice but its morality. You have developed a set of qualifiers and circumstances where you would or would not support abortion. Surely you recognize this is coming strictly from your subjective judgment. You would apply your set of standards for morality, someone else applies theirs and before you know it - no morality!

If you want to honestly evaluate Rowe, it is the LOCATION of the child that determines whether it is fair game to kill it. Located in the womb - fair game. Located out of the womb, well, we’re not too sure right now (in as much as the killing of embryonic infants for experimentation has recently been legalized). So if one foot is out of the womb, its D&X (partial birth abortion) and we are not comfortable with it. Both feet in the womb it’s D&C and it’s ok.

None of these legal niceties have the slightest thing to do with the morality of it, any more than the statistical number of Catholics who like the subjective, irrational standards the law applies.

The Church, as you know, stands squarely in opposition to abortion applying a clear, consistent, rationally defensible standard - that a life deserving protection exists at the moment of conception. When you attend Mass and receive the Eucharist, it is that Church with whom you are professing communion when you present yourself to receive.

Finally, sound morality does recognize that there are instances when, in defense of the mother’s life an abortion incidentally occurs. The Church consistently opposes intentional abortion in all cases. In my own case, my mother had a variety of illnesses including toxemia when she carried me. Doctors advised I would be still born and she had a 50-50 chance if she carried me to term. Her decision should be apparent.

 

[kage_ar]

Pick up a Catechism.

Don’t agree with the teaching on abortion - rip out that page

Don’t agree with the teaching on contraception - rip out that page

One has begun creating one’s own church, based on feelings and opinions.

 

[Catholic90]

Catholic90, this is a ridiculous response. You and I both know what we are talking about. If you say that you can be a Catholic in good standanding and support Pro-Choice life issues then you are not very well versed in your faith. Being Pro-Abortion is being an accomplice to the crime, thus you yourself are guilty of the murder of that child. What part of thou shalt now kill dont you understand?

That was an obvious typo on my part . Obviously what I MEANT to say was you can’t be Catholic and ProChoice. Mea Culpa

 

[ryecroft]

No variations in the teaching of the Catholic Church:

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 28 May, 1884

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 18 August, 1889

The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith DECLARATION ON PROCURRED ABORTION 18 November, 1974

These three include the concept of ‘anticipated murder’, “supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul…”

Note that The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon law treat Murder and Abortion as two distinctly different things. Note also that Evangelium Vitae, which declares both to be, infallibly, “grave moral disorders”.

This was taught as far back as St. Augustine and earlier. St. Jerome and St. Thomas Aquinas, Innocent III and Gregory XIV and several other popes also expressed it in their writings.

This in no way makes the transgression less grave, it just means that there are strong theological and Sacred Tradition reasons the two are presented as seperate teachings. We are ‘Creationists’, we each receive an indivisable soul which is a unique creation of God.

Therefore you have not shown how the Church has ever taught or implied that abortion always and everywhere is anything but “a grave moral disorder” and an intrinsic evil and affront to the dignity of human life.

The point or day of ensoulment has always been irrelevant. Why make it so?

Choose what?
Take the ability to choose to do what freely away from someone?

That is why they are dependent on us to protect them from people who think it is okay to kill them. They are helpless. Shame on you to take advantage of them. :tsktsk:

You fail to remember that the Catholic Church was begun nearly 2000 years ago.
Do I need to go and put down the quotes from Aquinas about “ensoulment”? Do I need to go and get Augustine’s comments on when a pregnancy is actually a child? These are the people that are often looked to and quoted for this Chatecism of the Catholic Church – personally, I liked the Batimore Chatecism better when things were taken mostly straight from the Bible and not from a bunch of people, mostly men who have decided what women should do with their bodies - but that’s not a debate for here and now -

And no I will not have one ounce of “shame” as you say for putting my intrinsic right to live above that of a fetus that I carry - if I had, I wouldn’t be here right now. I’m the 1-2% that’s referred to as the “medically necessary abortions” - that doesn’t mean I like abortion, but it does mean I’m not about to leave my husband a widower if I have a choice or he has a choice. I would love to carry a fetus to even seven months if my body could take it but currently, that isn’t the situation. So shame on you for ditching the women and telling them that their only option for birth control is NFP or if they get sick enough, dying. It’s their life and they should not have to be afraid to say I want to live longer.

 

[ryecroft]

Hmmm. I’m glad to see that you admit to having a difficult time with this teaching.

Where to start?

OK, first, God did not give each and every one of us the right to choose, he gave us the ability to choose…choose, in this case, to kill an innocent.

Second, what does it matter the age of the baby (as has been pointed out)? Morally, do you see a difference in killing a 6 month old infant and killing a 6 week old fetus? Your argument that neither of them can “choose”, due to incomplete intellectual development, would support that you’d be fine with killing either one, because they cannot choose not to be killed, i.e. to object.

Third, related to the second, the “they cannot choose” argument logically extends to mentally/developmentally disabled children and adults. Are you OK with parents or others having the “right” to kill them at well as well? I should hope not.

You betcha we Catholics “seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose”, in this case to kill innocent human beings.

Answer this question: If you had the intellectual ability to object to your mother aborting you, would you have objected? If so, why do you deny that other unborn children that same right?

One more thing…even if there was a God-given “right to choose”, how do you figure a mom’s right to choose trumps the unborn’s right to live??

O.K. Newbie - your last sentence - “how do I figure a mom’s right to choose trumps the unborn’s right to live?” - what about how do you figure a mom’s right to live trumps the unborn’s right to live? That’s where I’m coming from - I’m the 1-2% of people who happens to be Catholic who has had to make this decision- I am not for abortion as a source of birth control - there are too many other ways out there that can be used - but in certain cases 1 -2 % of the time, I’m glad I’m able to make that choice and I’m not dead right now. Apparently, if what is being said on here is representative of the Catholic Church, than I might as well stop being a part of it right now with what is being said because in 1-2% of the cases where a mother can die I believe the mother should be able to choose. So thank you much.

 

[monorail]

O.K. Newbie - your last sentence - “how do I figure a mom’s right to choose trumps the unborn’s right to live?” - what about how do you figure a mom’s right to live trumps the unborn’s right to live? That’s where I’m coming from - I’m the 1-2% of people who happens to be Catholic who has had to make this decision- I am not for abortion as a source of birth control - there are too many other ways out there that can be used - but in certain cases 1 -2 % of the time, I’m glad I’m able to make that choice and I’m not dead right now. Apparently, if what is being said on here is representative of the Catholic Church, than I might as well stop being a part of it right now with what is being said because in 1-2% of the cases where a mother can die I believe the mother should be able to choose. So thank you much.

The Apologists have answered these questions:
Can I be pro-choice AND receive Holy Communion?
Is abortion okay to save the mother’s life?
Is the mother’s life more important than the unborn child’s?

 

[mapleoak]

You fail to remember that the Catholic Church was begun nearly 2000 years ago.

I do? How did you determine that? Did you know that Jesus Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church? You fail to remember that.

Do I need to go and put down the quotes from Aquinas about “ensoulment”? Do I need to go and get Augustine’s comments on when a pregnancy is actually a child?

You totally missed the point:

The point or day of ensoulment has always been irrelevant. Why make it so?

and:

Therefore you have not shown how the Church has ever taught or implied that abortion always and everywhere is anything but “a grave moral disorder” and an intrinsic evil and affront to the dignity of human life.

The Church has always condemned abortion regardless of at what point ‘ensoulment’ may occur. Why make an issue out of ensoulment. You either agree with the Church that abortion is intrinsically evil and always wrong, or you deny your faith and the Church and disagree with its teaching.

These are the people that are often looked to and quoted for this Chatecism of the Catholic Church – personally, I liked the Batimore Chatecism better when things were taken mostly straight from the Bible and not from a bunch of people, mostly men who have decided what women should do with their bodies - but that’s not a debate for here and now -

No, these men have concern for the bodies of the female unborn as much as for the male unborn. You also make an irrational argument by qualifying it with chauvinism rather than reason or objective truth.

And no I will not have one ounce of “shame” as you say for putting my intrinsic right to live above that of a fetus that I carry - if I had, I wouldn’t be here right now.

Just what I said, taking advantage of someone because they are helpless and you can exert your power over them, even to the point of killing them - and feeling no shame. Isn’t that what bullies do? Why not pick on someone your own size.

 

[ryecroft]

I do? How did you determine that? Did you know that Jesus Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church? You fail to remember that.

You totally missed the point:

and:

The Church has always condemned abortion regardless of at what point ‘ensoulment’ may occur. Why make an issue out of ensoulment. You either agree with the Church that abortion is intrinsically evil and always wrong, or you deny your faith and the Church and disagree with its teaching.

No, these men have concern for the bodies of the female unborn as much as for the male unborn. You also make an irrational argument by qualifying it with chauvinism rather than reason or objective truth.

Just what I said, taking advantage of someone because they are helpless and you can exert your power over them, even to the point of killing them - and feeling no shame. Isn’t that what bullies do? Why not pick on someone your own size.

I will not consider myself a “bully” - I consider myself happy to be alive - Once you’ve been faced with the same decision as my husband and I were, then I’ll respect your opinion.
Comment on the church being nearly 2000 years old - did not Jesus not begin preaching until he was in his 30th year - then later on did not the calendar have to be changed such that it does not begin at 44 bc yet at 325 AD - if you take all of these into perspective, it’s nearly 2000 years. As I said before if you’re going to say that we’re not inline with the Catholic Church because 1-2% of the time we believe abortion to be right to save a life than maybe some of us should just leave the Catholic Church - before you call me a bully you better look at your comments and think about the way you’re comming off.

 

[ryecroft]

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

If nothing else, this should show that the Catholic Church has not “always” taught that all abortion is murder. Granted the times were different. What I don’t understand is how a caring God can put the possibility of a fetus surviving outside the womb above that of the life of the mother deffinately living. Say what you will, call me a heretic, I know what I believe and some of you out there know what you believe and neither of us will change the other’s opinions - I’m just glad that some of the Church’s Priests are more loving towards the mother than some of the people on here. Some of you are just ready to toss the mother away without a second thought because of the possibility of a fetus possibly living - regardless of what trying to carry the fetus longer will do to the mother. Again I say, once you’ve had to make that decision, then I’ll respect your opinion. It’s terribly easy to say what you would do - but living it is a completely different situation.

 

[bullfrog654]

I will not consider myself a “bully” - I consider myself happy to be alive - Once you’ve been faced with the same decision as my husband and I were, then I’ll respect your opinion.
Comment on the church being nearly 2000 years old - did not Jesus not begin preaching until he was in his 30th year - then later on did not the calendar have to be changed such that it does not begin at 44 bc yet at 325 AD - if you take all of these into perspective, it’s nearly 2000 years. As I said before if you’re going to say that we’re not inline with the Catholic Church because 1-2% of the time we believe abortion to be right to save a life than maybe some of us should just leave the Catholic Church - before you call me a bully you better look at your comments and think about the way you’re comming off.

respecting others opinions are always important. that really bothers me know dont know how to explain. i see pain in material things like my computer in front of me constantly its soul or image and faith is being fed upon same with my tv to the point of things talking through it trying to posses it. most electronics or metal is like this. know i cant expect you to experience this however id respect ANYONES opinion on this. because i delusion just doesnt help.

about abortion im trying not to judge you however lately ive found what privilages are found on the internet, the rights and the wrongs that show me the true light on the internet (deajavue) ive seen so much i suppose ridicule towards christians at yahoo, anger has built up. over the years built up quite an enthusiazm of respect for online people on computers. getting over the disappointment (with no church guidence what so ever, the church is silent to me) so my stand is to solve such riddles you speak of, that of which im fully capable of. WITHOUT EVER GETTING THE RESPECT FROM DOING SO. living a life of shame, spit upon by my neighbourhood. reaching out to YOU ALL for a little sympathy, while finding less respect.

no i do not meen to judge basically DISSAPOINTMENT. for i am judged on these privilages on a daily bases trying to defend my catholic religion as im sure you are. my faith is weak my days are ridiculed i cant trust anyone other then family im always watched and followed and condemned. im tired of waR. im tired of judging however mabby i needed to be to obtain the keys of knowledgable wisdom i have espesially this month.

should i manipulate my way to power wealth and greed has run across my mind. thats all i hear and read every where i go except tv. should i join the heard in manipulation for my best interst and make my dad happy ive made something with my life so he can be proad.

im not sure the future but i leave that up to my higher power if you think any of you are being judged i suggest do the same.

 

[mapleoak]

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

If nothing else, this should show that the Catholic Church has not “always” taught that all abortion is murder.

One, you did not provide the quote from St. Augustine’s work, only made a commentary on it. Two, as I have already clearly stated and will state once again, the Church indeed has not always taught that abortion is ‘murder’ rather it has always taught it to be a “grave moral disorder” and an intrinsic evil and therefore forbidden under all circumstances. Why do you insist on the ensoulment argument?

Once again I refer back to post #20. Please try to read it so we don’t have to state the same things over and over:

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 28 May, 1884

Decree of the Tribunal of the Holy Office 18 August, 1889

The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith DECLARATION ON PROCURRED ABORTION 18 November, 1974
These three include the concept of ‘anticipated murder’, “supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul…”

Note that The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon law treat Murder and Abortion as two distinctly different things. Note also that Evangelium Vitae, which declares both to be, infallibly, “grave moral disorders”.

This was taught as far back as St. Augustine and earlier. St. Jerome and St. Thomas Aquinas, Innocent III and Gregory XIV and several other popes also expressed it in their writings.
.
.
.
Therefore you have not shown how the Church has ever taught or implied that abortion always and everywhere is anything but “a grave moral disorder” and an intrinsic evil and affront to the dignity of human life.

And again:
The point or day of ensoulment has always been irrelevant. Why make it so?

Granted the times were different.

Yes, times were different such that the biological and scientific truth of when new human life begins was less understood. Doesn’t mean the Church has defined abortion as acceptable. This would imply the Church changed its teaching. No, rather the Church teaches truth and as more knowledge becomes available, adds to and clarifies teaching. You will never be able to show where it has taught that abortion was acceptable and has since changed its teaching to be unacceptable. I challenge you to do so.

What I don’t understand is how a caring God can put the possibility of a fetus surviving outside the womb above that of the life of the mother deffinately living.

God putting the life of one over another is nothing but personal inference. God calls different people at different times from this world, for reasons known to him alone.

Say what you will, call me a heretic, I know what I believe and some of you out there know what you believe and neither of us will change the other’s opinions - I’m just glad that some of the Church’s Priests are more loving towards the mother than some of the people on here.

Some priests are faithful to the Church and some will tell you what you want to hear. But they are only doing you a disservice by lying to you. There is only one truth. What is true for you is true for me. Something cannot be both true and false at the same time.

 

[Hopeful23]

I will not consider myself a “bully” - I consider myself happy to be alive - Once you’ve been faced with the same decision as my husband and I were, then I’ll respect your opinion.
Comment on the church being nearly 2000 years old - did not Jesus not begin preaching until he was in his 30th year - then later on did not the calendar have to be changed such that it does not begin at 44 bc yet at 325 AD - if you take all of these into perspective, it’s nearly 2000 years. As I said before if you’re going to say that we’re not inline with the Catholic Church because 1-2% of the time we believe abortion to be right to save a life than maybe some of us should just leave the Catholic Church - before you call me a bully you better look at your comments and think about the way you’re comming off.

My mother had to face that choice. She has two children, Thanks and Praise be to God, but I wasn’t supposed to be born and she was advised to abort me. My mom had two miscarriages between my brother and me and she wasn’t supposed to get pregnant. I thank her for her gift of life and I thank God every day. In cases like this I have to wonder, do you know for certain that you will die if you have a baby? If so then don’t have sex. Sex is a choice just the same as any other to have it or not to have it. If, however you don’t know and you choose to trust in God with your life and with the life of your son, as Mary Mother of God did with us and her Son. Life is not ours to give or to take, we are allowed to participate in creation and that is a wondrous and miraculous gift from God, our father who loves us beyond anything. If he were to decide that you were to die instead of your child there is a reason, if however you do both survive there is also a reason and a responsibility to turn around and give as much back to Him as possible. I’ll be praying for you and for the one you may have lost along the way.

 

[kage_ar]

While Augustine and Aquinas are Saints, and good teachers, great minds and brilliant theologians - neither were Popes. They are not protected as a Pope when it comes to infallibility when teaching Faith and Morals, they could not speak ex cathedra.