The Right to Choose

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Becks said:
I don’t understand why this quote is being mostly ignored as this discussion spirals downward in hatefulness. Is this suggestion not the solution which is most in line with what the Catholic Church teaches?
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Thank you.
 
maryjk said:
If you look at what a late term abortion is, it is killing the baby, then delivering it. Why kill it first? Why not just deliver the baby?
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Agree with you there. (Whenever possible!)

I guess I have a dual concern about why a woman with a repeated problem like my relative had, would put herself in such a risky situation that then only emergency (rapid) procedures could be applied in order to save her life, as she was on the road to certain death & was extremely close to dying with the pressure built up, etc., until the baby was forcibly, suddenly removed (i.e., not with normal labor time). I know C-sections can be done fairly hurriedly. I think in my relative’s case (learned 3rd hand, by me; I was not there), the doctors thought there was not even time for a C-section. I am not supporting their decision, just retelling the details as best I understand them.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Agree with you there. (Whenever possible!)

I guess I have a dual concern about why a woman with a repeated problem like my relative had, would put herself in such a risky situation that then only emergency (rapid) procedures could be applied in order to save her life, as she was on the road to certain death & was extremely close to dying with the pressure built up, etc., until the baby was forcibly, suddenly removed (i.e., not with normal labor time). I know C-sections can be done fairly hurriedly. I think in my relative’s case (learned 3rd hand, by me; I was not there), the doctors thought there was not even time for a C-section. I am not supporting their decision, just retelling the details as best I understand them.
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At some point your relative should understand that being pregnant could lead to an emergency situation. I guess, like you, I also don’t understand how she could repeatedly place herself in that situation.

I know that if I become pregnant again, I will have to be monitored throughout my pregnancy. I know that I will again have the chance of a premature baby. I also know that I have a chance of a ruptured uterus. And I have done my best to not get pregnant again. I couldn’t imagine being so careless as to become pregnant numerous times, many if not all resulting in a dead baby.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
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Just like Adam and Eve, You indeed have a right to choose. God help you child if you should make the wrong choice. Till this day, we carry the curse of Adam and Eve’s choice. Chose wisely.
 
Day 1: Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds.2 At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set – whether it’s a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become.
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The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow.3
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Shouldn’t every child be wanted?
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At first glance, yes! “Every Child a Wanted Child” is a great slogan. Who can argue? That isn’t the disagreement. It is how to achieve such a goal. We agree that every child should be wanted. A world with only wanted children would be an idyllic place in which to live. No one could quarrel with that as an idealistic goal. Wouldn’t it also be a wonderful world if there were no unwanted wives by husbands, no aging parents unwanted by their children, no unwanted Jews, blacks, Catholics, Chicanos, or ever again a person who, at one time or place, finds himself or herself unwanted or persecuted. Let’s all try to achieve this, but also remember that people have clay feet and, sadly, the unwanted will probably always be with us.
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A second thought: Women resent that the value of a woman is sometimes determined by whether a man wants her. Yet radical feminists insist that the value of an unborn boy or girl is to be determined by whether a woman wants him or her.
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To use being wanted by someone as a measure of whether a human life is allowed to live is a frightening concept. Its converse logically awaits us — that the unwanted can be eliminated. Don’t forget, Hitler’s Germany was ideal for wanted Aryans.
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Since when does anyone’s right to live depend upon someone else wanting them?
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“Every Child a Wanted Child” should be completed with “and if not wanted, kill!” for that is exactly what that Planned Parenthood slogan means. To thus complete the sentence removes the mask from this misleading slogan and reveals it for the monstrous evil that it is. That certainly makes it sound different!
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Yes, and it is of crucial importance that every time we hear that phrase, we should add Planned Parenthood’s solution, “and if not wanted, kill!”
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Do parents kill teenagers when they are not wanted, or Uncle Joe after his stroke, or Mom, now that she is such a burden? You say no?
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Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? No! Then why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?
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The U.S. Supreme Court and the governments in many other nations have, for the first time in modern history, granted to one citizen (the mother) the absolute legal right to kill another, if that first person does not want them!
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Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .
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In 1857 the U.S. Supreme Court decided the Dred Scott Decision. By a 7-2 vote it ruled that black people were not “legal persons,” that they were the property of the slave owner, who was granted the basic constitutional right to own a slave. Abolitionists protested, to be met with this answer: “We understand you oppose slavery and find it morally offensive. That is your privilege. You don’t have to own a slave if you don’t want to. But, don’t impose your morality on the slave owner. He has the constitutionally protected right to choose to own a slave.”
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Today the conflict is abortion, and the very same argument is used. In 1973 the U.S. Supreme Court, by a 7-2 decision, ruled that unborn humans were not “legal persons,” that they were the property of the owner (the mother) who was given the basic constitutional right to choose to kill her unborn offspring. Pro-lifers have protested, to be met with the same answer . . . "We understand that you oppose abortion and find it morally offensive. That is your privilege. You don’t have to have an abortion if you don’t want to. But don’t impose your morality on the owner, the mother, for she has the constitutional right to choose to kill, if she wishes.
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Want more? Click on the link in my signature.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
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God gave us the choice to follow him. God did not give us the choice to kill anyone. That includes a child in the womb.
Read the Ten Commandments. the Fifth reads, “thou shalt not kill”.
All christians accept and believe the Ten Commandments. You won’t find a church that doesn’t. if you do, don’t go there!

jean
 
jean8 said:
God gave us the choice to follow him. God did not give us the choice to kill anyone. That includes a child in the womb.
Read the Ten Commandments. the Fifth reads, “thou shalt not kill”.
All christians accept and believe the Ten Commandments. You won’t find a church that doesn’t. if you do, don’t go there!

jean
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You are in error. God gave human beings Free Will, which allows for choosing abortion, legal or not.

Limerick
 
ryecroft said:
I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.
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I can only go from scripture. Yeah, I know (here we go again!)

Well here is a fun fact: After the Archangel Gabriel left Mary (the Annunciation) Mary prepared to go to the mountainous region of Judea to visit her cousin Elizabeth. The angel had told her about Elizabeth being 6 months pregnant.
So in those day you either get on a donkey or you go by caravan and the trip must’ve taken maybe a couple of weeks.
So Mary (Theotokos) arrives at Elizabeth’s house and she must’ve said something like, " Hello Elizabeth…it’s me Mary."

Now the Gospel tells us that as soon as Mary’s greeting reached Elizabeth’s ears, the child in her womb leapt for joy and both mother and child were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Now I ask you (or inform you, in case you don’t realize) that both Elizabeth and John the Baptist were filled with the Holy Spirit because of Mary’s presence or because of the Child God in her Womb.?? Mary could’ve only been no more than a few weeks pregnant!!

Life begins at conception…cognitive or not.
Abortion is murder and it is one of Satan’s great triumphs. It should not be trivialized with euphemism and false maxims like: “it’s my body” or “it’s my decision because it’s my body”.
The same premise that governs suicide i.e. it is not your life to take… also governs the unborn…it is not your life to take. God is the life giver.
We follow Satan’s plan when we commit homocide, suicide, euthanasia and abortion.

Even the slow killing through drug and alcohol addiction is a sin against the body.

Sugar coat it all you want rationalize it as much as you want…the body (yours, mine or that “fetus”) belongs to God.

Gospa Mir!
 
limerick said:
You are in error. God gave human beings Free Will, which allows for choosing abortion, legal or not.

Limerick
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The ability to choose between right and wrong, good or evil happens to be the lowest limit of our freedom.

We choose wrong or evil simply because we percieve a “benefit” or a “good”; even if there is none. And as such we destroy our freedom in choosing the percieved good that actually turns out to be wrong and evil.

Choosing the “lesser of two wrongs or evils” is still a wrong or evil choice. Hence again falling deeper into the destruction of our freedom, we become slaves of our wrong evil choices.

God, in whom there is no shadow of wrong decisions is infinitely free. We are imitators of our Father in heaven when we choose the greater good…and when we strive to choose the greater good always, we become truly free.
 
mangy_dog said:
I can only go from scripture. Yeah, I know (here we go again!)

Well here is a fun fact: After the Archangel Gabriel left Mary (the Annunciation) Mary prepared to go to the mountainous region of Judea to visit her cousin Elizabeth. The angel had told her about Elizabeth being 6 months pregnant.
So in those day you either get on a donkey or you go by caravan and the trip must’ve taken maybe a couple of weeks.
So Mary (Theotokos) arrives at Elizabeth’s house and she must’ve said something like, " Hello Elizabeth…it’s me Mary."

Now the Gospel tells us that as soon as Mary’s greeting reached Elizabeth’s ears, the child in her womb leapt for joy and both mother and child were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Now I ask you (or inform you, in case you don’t realize) that both Elizabeth and John the Baptist were filled with the Holy Spirit because of Mary’s presence or because of the Child God in her Womb.?? Mary could’ve only been no more than a few weeks pregnant!!

Life begins at conception…cognitive or not.
Abortion is murder and it is one of Satan’s great triumphs. It should not be trivialized with euphemism and false maxims like: “it’s my body” or “it’s my decision because it’s my body”.
The same premise that governs suicide i.e. it is not your life to take… also governs the unborn…it is not your life to take. God is the life giver.
We follow Satan’s plan when we commit homocide, suicide, euthanasia and abortion.

Even the slow killing through drug and alcohol addiction is a sin against the body.

Sugar coat it all you want rationalize it as much as you want…the body (yours, mine or that “fetus”) belongs to God.

Gospa Mir!
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“It’s my body” is not a euphemism or a false maxim. It is a viewpoint. No one is asking you to endorse it. Any sin that occurs under another’s attitude claiming “It’s my body” has absolutely no moral, ethical, spiritual, legal, financial price for you to pay. Free will is just that: one is free to choose the direction of his or her life, regardless what others may think or believe. You may be saddened or angered by their choices, but that is as far as your involvement goes. You cannot make another adult “act right”. In lieu of activism, the best you can do is pray for his or her soul, and for any souls directly influenced by the decision made.

Limerick
 
limerick said:
That is your opinion.

Limerick
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Not exactly. For instance, it would be a stretch to call it an *opinion * to say the act of someone exercising their free will and purposefully ending the life of another is an abuse of that freedom. Otherwise, why the laws against murder?
 
mangy_dog said:
The ability to choose between right and wrong, good or evil happens to be the lowest limit of our freedom.

We choose wrong or evil simply because we percieve a “benefit” or a “good”; even if there is none. And as such we destroy our freedom in choosing the percieved good that actually turns out to be wrong and evil.

Choosing the “lesser of two wrongs or evils” is still a wrong or evil choice. Hence again falling deeper into the destruction of our freedom, we become slaves of our wrong evil choices.

God, in whom there is no shadow of wrong decisions is infinitely free. We are imitators of our Father in heaven when we choose the greater good…and when we strive to choose the greater good always, we become truly free.
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There are times in the human soul when “the greater good” cannot be perceived with clarity. Idealism is fine, but its application is occasionally influenced by fear. I submit that abortion is the lesser sin when compared to fear. Fear sets sin in motion. And I do not, and will not ever, believe a human being can become “truly free” in this life.

Limerick
 
magdelaine said:
Not exactly. For instance, it would be a stretch to call it an *opinion * to say the act of someone exercising their free will and purposefully ending the life of another is an abuse of that freedom. Otherwise, why the laws against murder?
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Are you claiming that abortion is illegal in the United States?

Limerick
 
limerick said:
Are you claiming that abortion is illegal in the United States?

Limerick
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You know I’m not. You said “free will allows for choosing abortion, legal or not”. Fix said “that is an abuse of freedom”. You said “that’s your opinion”.

My point is, why would your logic be true for abortion, but not for murder? Free will **does **allow for choosing to murder someone, legal or not. However, you will not find any but the most hardened anarchists who would say that murder is not an abuse of freedom.

Besides, abortion *is *murder. It just so happens that it is legal. But there are many “legal” things that are an abuse of freedom in this world, like the former practice of slavery and the current practice of child prostitution in certain foreign countries.
 
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