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GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
Truth is not an opinion. Truth is eternal and immutable. Truth: Abortion in all circumstances is a sinful act of abuse of free will by destroying human life. Life belongs to God.
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mapleoak
Guest
Not only is it a euphemism, it is entirely false. The reading of any good biology text book should be adequate to illustrate that the unborn child “isn’t my body” but a completely separate and unique individual.
And totally false. You will not find a scientist or biologist willing to put his credibility on the line or appear ignorant by saying something preposterous as the embryo is not a completely separate human being from the mother.
Sure it does. Someone dies.
One is not free to choose the direction of others lives, especially if it involves killing them. That is why we need laws to protect the unborn from those who believe it is okay to kill them.
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mapleoak
Guest
Fear is not a sin, nor is it an excuse to kill. Abortion is a “gravely disordered action” as has already illustrated toward the beginning of this thread.
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BiologyBrain
Guest
I submit that fear does cause most abortions. Distrust in God = fear that leads to abortion. Fear in & of itself can be a good thing (keeps you from doing stupid things), but it can also lead to doing stupid things (like abortion). In any case, regardless of the reason behind the abortion the final score is always 1 dead & 1 wounded. Whether the death is the result of the mother’s fear or selfishness, the end results is the death of the most vulnerable of mankind. Neither reason (actually no reason) for an abortion excuses the fact that someone willingly took the life of the unborn. You cannot deny that fact.
Biologically speaking, even pro-choice or ambivalent scientists contend that the fetus/embryo/zygote is alive at the most basic level. Regardless of whether the baby requires the mother’s body for nutrients, shelter, warmth, etc - the baby is its own life. It just depends on the life-support of the mother’s body. However, the placenta, amniotic fluid, pregnancy hormones, etc are actually produced/stimulated by the baby itself, not the mother in the majority of cases. For instance, hCG - the pregnancy hormone detected in blood & urine tests for pregnancy - is actually stimulated/produced by the fertilized egg/zygote prior to implantation. It doesn’t reach detectable levels until after implantation, but its definitely present b/4 its detectable. When there are certain physical/chromosomal problems w/ the baby, often-times the production of this hormone ceases & the pregnancy fails (I’ve had it happen 4 times). Therefore, in a way, the baby does support itself - it just does so within the confines of the womb. It changes its environment to suit itself - much like humans have done to the planet Earth.
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limerick
Guest
mapleoak speaks:
*
Not only is it a euphemism, it is entirely false. The reading of any good biology text book should be adequate to illustrate that the unborn child “isn’t my body” but a completely separate and unique individual.*
**Earlier I referred to a statement posted by mangy dog: *"Abortion is murder and it is one of Satan’s great triumphs. It should not be trivialized with euphemism and false maxims like: ‘it’s my body’ or ‘it’s my decision because it’s my body’ ". *** I understand a woman who declares, “It’s my body” to be making as statement as to ownership of her actions: the decisions she makes with regard to a pregnancy, the actions she takes as a result of her pregnancy, and whatever God would have in store for her as a direct or indirect result of having an abortion, should she have one.
If a euphemism is a word or phrase that is less expressive or direct, but considered less distasteful, less offensive, etc. than another, then what distasteful word or phrase would you substitute (or restore) for “It’s my body”? This is not a game show; there are no prizes. I simply find mangy dog’s use of the word “euphemism” for another individual’s philosophy, and mapleoak’s jumping on that bandwagon, rather curious. Can you put it into a single word or a concise phrase without embellishment? If not, then it is not a euphemism. And if a maxim is a statement of a general truth, then a woman who declares, 'It’s my body" is giving expression to her individual beliefs, her truth, to which she is entitled, which she is free to develop and cultivate and nurture and mold as she grows through her own unique life experiences. Your truth in no way aligns with hers; but as you are entitled to believe what you choose, so is she.
And totally false [that “It’s my body” is a viewpoint]. * You will not find a scientist or biologist willing to put his credibility on the line or appear ignorant by saying something preposterous as the embryo is not a completely separate human being from the mother.*
When a woman declares, “It’s my body”, it is more true than if you or her husband or her priest were to declare “Your body belongs to me and you will do as I tell you to do.” I have not ever indicated in a single post on this thread what my belief is with regard to a zygote, embryo or fetus being one with the mother or an entity separate from the mother, so with whom are you arguing this point?
**“No one is asking you to endorse it. Any sin that occurs under another’s attitude claiming “It’s my body” has absolutely no moral, ethical, spiritual, legal, financial price for you to pay.”] **** Sure it does. Someone dies.
How specifically does a woman having an abortion affect your morals? Your ethics? What spiritual price do you pay? What legal or financial price is levied? If you are indignant that taxes you pay support agencies that provide abortion services, then do not pay them. * Do not pay them. * Hire an attorney and take the entire issue to court. Or are you not willing to go quite that far (so extreme, after all; let somebody else do it and you can cheer from the back row) just because some broad in Brooklyn can’t say no to her boyfriend?
One is not free to choose the direction of others lives, especially if it involves killing them. That is why we need laws to protect the unborn from those who believe it is okay to kill them.
**
We all choose the directions of others’ lives, directly or indirectly, every single day, sometimes for good and sometimes not. We all influence each other in some way every moment. Why not influence parents, teachers, lawmakers to design and implement programs that educate children about their bodies? We need laws that educate boys and girls about reproduction and their options with regard to their own sexuality. Without the complete** book of knowledge they have no power. And they will go on making the same ignorant mistakes that I made in my twenties, and nothing will have changed, and the whining will continue without ever really being addressed.
Limerick
*
Not only is it a euphemism, it is entirely false. The reading of any good biology text book should be adequate to illustrate that the unborn child “isn’t my body” but a completely separate and unique individual.*
**Earlier I referred to a statement posted by mangy dog: *"Abortion is murder and it is one of Satan’s great triumphs. It should not be trivialized with euphemism and false maxims like: ‘it’s my body’ or ‘it’s my decision because it’s my body’ ". *** I understand a woman who declares, “It’s my body” to be making as statement as to ownership of her actions: the decisions she makes with regard to a pregnancy, the actions she takes as a result of her pregnancy, and whatever God would have in store for her as a direct or indirect result of having an abortion, should she have one.
If a euphemism is a word or phrase that is less expressive or direct, but considered less distasteful, less offensive, etc. than another, then what distasteful word or phrase would you substitute (or restore) for “It’s my body”? This is not a game show; there are no prizes. I simply find mangy dog’s use of the word “euphemism” for another individual’s philosophy, and mapleoak’s jumping on that bandwagon, rather curious. Can you put it into a single word or a concise phrase without embellishment? If not, then it is not a euphemism. And if a maxim is a statement of a general truth, then a woman who declares, 'It’s my body" is giving expression to her individual beliefs, her truth, to which she is entitled, which she is free to develop and cultivate and nurture and mold as she grows through her own unique life experiences. Your truth in no way aligns with hers; but as you are entitled to believe what you choose, so is she.
And totally false [that “It’s my body” is a viewpoint]. * You will not find a scientist or biologist willing to put his credibility on the line or appear ignorant by saying something preposterous as the embryo is not a completely separate human being from the mother.*
When a woman declares, “It’s my body”, it is more true than if you or her husband or her priest were to declare “Your body belongs to me and you will do as I tell you to do.” I have not ever indicated in a single post on this thread what my belief is with regard to a zygote, embryo or fetus being one with the mother or an entity separate from the mother, so with whom are you arguing this point?
**“No one is asking you to endorse it. Any sin that occurs under another’s attitude claiming “It’s my body” has absolutely no moral, ethical, spiritual, legal, financial price for you to pay.”] **** Sure it does. Someone dies.
How specifically does a woman having an abortion affect your morals? Your ethics? What spiritual price do you pay? What legal or financial price is levied? If you are indignant that taxes you pay support agencies that provide abortion services, then do not pay them. * Do not pay them. * Hire an attorney and take the entire issue to court. Or are you not willing to go quite that far (so extreme, after all; let somebody else do it and you can cheer from the back row) just because some broad in Brooklyn can’t say no to her boyfriend?
One is not free to choose the direction of others lives, especially if it involves killing them. That is why we need laws to protect the unborn from those who believe it is okay to kill them.
**
We all choose the directions of others’ lives, directly or indirectly, every single day, sometimes for good and sometimes not. We all influence each other in some way every moment. Why not influence parents, teachers, lawmakers to design and implement programs that educate children about their bodies? We need laws that educate boys and girls about reproduction and their options with regard to their own sexuality. Without the complete** book of knowledge they have no power. And they will go on making the same ignorant mistakes that I made in my twenties, and nothing will have changed, and the whining will continue without ever really being addressed.
Limerick
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limerick
Guest
**Fear is a lack of faith. I consider that sinful. Oh, it might not rank as one of the Seven Deadlies, but if we cannot get a grip on the idea that God will help us in times of trial then we have nothing. In that case, faith is a great big, sugary, fair-weather marshmallow.
Fear is a killer. It kills spirit and endurance and a willingness to accept life on life’s terms. The most influential factor in my procuring an abortion was fear. So don’t tell me it’s not a sin.
Limerick**
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limerick
Guest
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GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
Words, words, so many words. No amount of words or cleverly constructed sentences and paragraphs can change Truth which comes from He who is Truth. The Truth is simple, beautiful and absolute.
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elts1956
Guest
So you are just sitting and “thinking” and letting us know you are pro-choice/pro-abortion. Ever hear of sins of omission? Or that you could be giving scandal to someone who is not solid in their Faith? Are you another of “those people” who question the teachings of the church, not only privately, but come to a public forum and makes sure everyone knows of your “opinion”? Don’t you think this is a bit subversive to Catholic teaching? I do. But then, that is only my opinion and doesn’t really make an impact on you, does it? .
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PapaSquash
Guest
Nice. So you see it as a good thing that large swaths of your fellow pilgrims are cut off from God’s Church and the grace of the sacraments because, being in that condition, they provide sufficient -]smokescree /-] um “diversity” so that you can indulge yourself without reprobation?
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limerick
Guest
**
You believe abortion is murder. Millions and millions and millions of abortions have occurred in the last 35 years alone, since Roe. Wouldn’t it be interesting to be able to interview all those “mothers” and all those “fathers” and tally up just how many of them believed they were committing murder then and how many of them believe it today?
For the most part, free will gets us into this hot water. We have no courtship skills, no respect for each other, no communication skills - as a society we are too damaged to ever enjoy anything akin to real love. We can’t fix Thailand and the child prostitutes. We can’t or won’t fix the illegals entering the country and being employed off the books. We can’t fix the dope problem, and trying to fix it brings problems not unlike those we suffered during Prohibition. We can only fix ourselves. We can only start in the home. We have a responsibility to tell our kids the absolute and complete truth about sexuality. This is where the real sin gets a foothold: parents who are afraid that condoms promote promiscuity, fathers who won’t allow their daughters to use the riding lawnmower because it’s “too dangerous”, mothers who cling to their sons because their husbands are inattentive. Why not fight back where the fight starts? Why let it fester and gather steam and lie like and abscess beneath the surface, waiting to erupt with a fountain of lies and deception and inaccuracies and half-truths? Kids deserve to know it all, not just “save yourself for marriage”.
Why even mention what’s happening around the world? That’s a deflection. That’s a dishonest look at the problem. Look at our kids. We had the freedom to create them, and with that freedom came tremendous responsibility. Even if we love them more than we love ourselves, some of them will search for what they think is love and will become sexually active before marriage. Some of the young women will get pregnant. Some of the young men will want to bolt. Will it be because we didn’t give them the facts? Will it be because we threatened them instead of supporting them?
Here’s your abuse of freedom. It happens long before a woman hits the abortionist’s table.
Limerick**
J
jean8
Guest
Yes, the Lord has given us the right to choose. he doesn’t drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.
God also gave us the Ten Commandments. He didn’t say we could choose the ones we liked.
People also make a choice when they have sex. Sometimes pregnancy occurs.
This is also a choice. Apply this choice to the appropriate Commandment.
Now we are discussing abortion, which means three people are involved. the mother, the father and the child. Did God give the mother and the father the right to kill this child in the womb? See the Commandment that applies.
No wonder Jesus weeps. but he also LOVES He also forgives.
This is called Amazing Grace.
.jean
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limerick
Guest
**No one wants to change truth. It just happens that another person’s truth may be different than yours. If you are secure in your faith then this shouldn’t be a problem for you. You don’t have to do someone else’s time in Purgatory or Hell. What’s all the fuss about?
Limerick**
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survive
Guest
Many years ago, I had sex for a foolish reason and did nothing at all to prevent pregnancy.
I became pregnant. This was my choice, by natural default, just as hitting the water is the choice of someone who jumps off a diving board into a pool; while it is possible that a bald eagle will fly low and grab a diver and carry her to a dry place, the pool and diving board are for getting wet and someone who uses them while fearing water is hardly demonstrating reason. Likewise someone who has sex while fearing pregnancy isn’t using reason. I wasn’t using reason. I was using people. I was using alcohol. People were using me. But reason was out of the equation altogether.
I went to stay with my mother, who had experience in health care work, and she told me that my symptoms meant the pregnancy would kill me. Though I was very pro-choice then, about many things, I knew I wasn’t alone, that the little biochemical communications I was getting were from someone else (indeed, two), not from “my own body”. I had no job, no particular skills unless someone wanted to pay me to play drinking games or do the crosswords, and no sense at all.
I sat on the edge of a bed in a cold house far from support, and I faced the decision of my twins’ lives or mine. I wondered whether Mom was mistaken. But I feared she was right.
At that time, a child had been born and lived who had been conceived only eighteen weeks, five days previous to her birth. She was fine. Another had been born at nineteen-and-a-half weeks post-conception. He was counted the most premature ever – still is – because he was underdeveloped for his age. His eyes were still sealed shut. Mom yelled at me and pleaded for me to abort. The abortion mill had a deadline. On the last day I could call, at closing time, I felt ice-cold, alone, and hopeless. I made the call, struggling to feel it was a good thing, a necessary choice. On that very day, had it been anyone else carrying these twins, I would have seen it as a good, necessary thing. but because they were in me, I felt their not-me existence just as I would have felt the existence of a five-year-old sitting in my lap talking and pulling my hair. Thirteen weeks the day after the day after I made the call, I don’t know whether that was gestation or real age, and Mom had said they weren’t conscious. That was my consolation.
My abortion almost killed me. I bled hard for months. Where were the pro-choice activists who had such radical things to say about my rights to health care and my body? My body was dying. It was actually a Baptist with strong pro-life views who saved my life. I dreamed for years about coming home to feed the baby and finding a child drowned in a cradle full of water, people saying, “Well, you left her here,” and bleak country highways like the road to the abortuary, where unseen speakers whisper urgently, “Thirteen weeks is three months,” over and over. I blocked the meaning of these dreams until now.
Years later I discovered that my symptoms had no relationship to the effect of the pregnancy on my long-term health, and that they fell within the normal range, and were almost over.
I will always yearn for my twins.
My weakness left them defenseless in the hands – literally – of those who made money by killing them.
I had been fooled into thinking the issue was my life, or none of our lives. In reality, the issue was all our lives, or none of our lives, or just barely by the grace and mercy of God, my life saved.
When I hear statistics on how many abortions are done for the life or health of the mother, I wonder how many of those mothers were as fooled and confused as I was.
I became pregnant. This was my choice, by natural default, just as hitting the water is the choice of someone who jumps off a diving board into a pool; while it is possible that a bald eagle will fly low and grab a diver and carry her to a dry place, the pool and diving board are for getting wet and someone who uses them while fearing water is hardly demonstrating reason. Likewise someone who has sex while fearing pregnancy isn’t using reason. I wasn’t using reason. I was using people. I was using alcohol. People were using me. But reason was out of the equation altogether.
I went to stay with my mother, who had experience in health care work, and she told me that my symptoms meant the pregnancy would kill me. Though I was very pro-choice then, about many things, I knew I wasn’t alone, that the little biochemical communications I was getting were from someone else (indeed, two), not from “my own body”. I had no job, no particular skills unless someone wanted to pay me to play drinking games or do the crosswords, and no sense at all.
I sat on the edge of a bed in a cold house far from support, and I faced the decision of my twins’ lives or mine. I wondered whether Mom was mistaken. But I feared she was right.
At that time, a child had been born and lived who had been conceived only eighteen weeks, five days previous to her birth. She was fine. Another had been born at nineteen-and-a-half weeks post-conception. He was counted the most premature ever – still is – because he was underdeveloped for his age. His eyes were still sealed shut. Mom yelled at me and pleaded for me to abort. The abortion mill had a deadline. On the last day I could call, at closing time, I felt ice-cold, alone, and hopeless. I made the call, struggling to feel it was a good thing, a necessary choice. On that very day, had it been anyone else carrying these twins, I would have seen it as a good, necessary thing. but because they were in me, I felt their not-me existence just as I would have felt the existence of a five-year-old sitting in my lap talking and pulling my hair. Thirteen weeks the day after the day after I made the call, I don’t know whether that was gestation or real age, and Mom had said they weren’t conscious. That was my consolation.
My abortion almost killed me. I bled hard for months. Where were the pro-choice activists who had such radical things to say about my rights to health care and my body? My body was dying. It was actually a Baptist with strong pro-life views who saved my life. I dreamed for years about coming home to feed the baby and finding a child drowned in a cradle full of water, people saying, “Well, you left her here,” and bleak country highways like the road to the abortuary, where unseen speakers whisper urgently, “Thirteen weeks is three months,” over and over. I blocked the meaning of these dreams until now.
Years later I discovered that my symptoms had no relationship to the effect of the pregnancy on my long-term health, and that they fell within the normal range, and were almost over.
I will always yearn for my twins.
My weakness left them defenseless in the hands – literally – of those who made money by killing them.
I had been fooled into thinking the issue was my life, or none of our lives. In reality, the issue was all our lives, or none of our lives, or just barely by the grace and mercy of God, my life saved.
When I hear statistics on how many abortions are done for the life or health of the mother, I wonder how many of those mothers were as fooled and confused as I was.
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mapleoak
Guest
No matter how the contortion of language is presented, one cannot justify the use of the phrase “its my body” while referring to killing the unborn. It is no less ridiculous than killing ones neighbor as saying “its my body”. The age of the innocent does not change that fact. Indeed it is a false maxim.
**
**It is pointless to use a phrase as “It’s my body” when the reality is something else. If I point to an apple an declare “it’s my body”, would you consider that to be an appropriate euphemism?
**
**Why is that curious? Mangy dog illustrated the incorrect fit and I reinforced it.
**
**Does not apply when put into a single word or concise phrase that is false. Nor when using a euphemism to refer to something other than the subject. “Its my body” is such an example because the subject is the death of an unborn child. It does not fit.
**
**In this, as was already pointed out, it is entirely false, not a general truth.
and if it is entirely false to one, so also to the other. Because truth is not subjective, she cannot declare something which is false “its my body” to be true. Try as she might, it will not come true. Truth is absolute. Therefore false maxim.
**
** Belief and truth are two separate things. What is true for me is true for you and true for her.
No, totally false that “It’s my body” is not a false maxim. Also, when used as a euphemism in the context of abortion, it illustrates ignorance of either biology or use of the language.
Mapleoak states: You will not find a scientist or biologist willing to put his credibility on the line or appear ignorant by saying something preposterous as the embryo is not a completely separate human being from the mother.
Limerick responds:
**
**Not at all. Neither are true. Both are false.
**
**Neither did I indicate anywhere that you did. The correct answer though is that the unborn are not one with the mother.
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mapleoak
Guest
Back to square one. We do not have the authority nor the right to decide an innocent person may die. That is an abuse of freedom as Fix pointed out. That is a moral absolute.
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mapleoak
Guest
fix forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
No, it is an objective truth.
No, it is an objective truth.
It is an objective truth whether you accept it or not.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
:hug1::bighanky:
Thank you for posting this. Made me weep.
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limerick
Guest
**
With regard to mapleoak’s dissection of every syllable of my previous posts, I very nearly respectfully but absolutely, completely and vehemently disagree.
I find it interesting that all the “it’s a choice” vs. “it’s murder” rhetoric so easily flows out of the fingertips of so many visitors to this forum, while actual dialogue engaging this Roman Catholic community concerning a solution to the problem of abortion is almost always overlooked, denied, sloughed over, ignored.
It’s no wonder men and women, boys and girls continue to go looking for affirmation through sexual activity. It appears that the Catholic family unit is just as decrepit as its protestant and “other religion” counterparts’ family units, and I have yet to see a single effort put forth to constructively address the dilemma of abortion on demand. It appears to be situation normal here: “you’d better not do this!”, instead of “here is what we can do”.
Rave on. Maybe if you keep typing you can ignore your children and your grandchildren yet another golden hour, opportunity wasted, ego firmly afloat.
Limerick**
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