The "right" to... whatever!

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I said that for atheists there is no PROBLEM of evil.
Heh.

Again, tell that to your 10 yr old son when he asks why his sweet little cousin died of cancer. “There’s no problem here, son!”

😃

It is amusing to see the degree of credulity that must be swallowed to endorse your worldview.
You misunderstood. I am quite familiar with the NUMEROUS different attempts to resolve the problem of evil. I am simply curious, which one do YOU (personally) find adequate - and why?
I find “because we have free will” to be the most sensible.
Excellent. So why do you keep pestering me with “how would I respond to a 10 years old”?
Because it’s a trenchant question and it’s one you have yet to answer.
Of course I can. God could create everyone to be compassionate and brave. Don’t forget, God is omnipotent.
I don’t think you’ve really thought out your answer, zy.

What does compassion look like in the face of no suffering, no illness, no pain?

And bravery–how would that work in your world without adversity?

Give me scenarios for this, please.
This is just like the question of “health insurance”. One does not need “health insurance” as long as one is healthy.
True, true.
Likewise with being “brave”. It is much better to live peacefully, when there is no need to act brave.
Ah, so you’re actually saying that there *couldn’t *be bravery in the world you created without adversity.

QED, sir. QED. 🙂
And when you try to resolve it, keep in mind: “according to the catholic teaching, God is omnipotent, God can do anything and everything, except logically contradictory states of affairs”. Make this your guiding line when you think about the “problem of evil”.
Amen, brother! Preach it!

You are correctly espousing Catholic teaching here. 👍
 
This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of basic math.

A lifetime (let’s say, 90 years) of suffering plus an infinite amount of eternal bliss is indistinguishable from 2 hours of suffering plus an infinite amount of eternal bliss.

#dothemath
Again, tell that to your 10 yr old son when he asks why his sweet little cousin died of cancer. “There’s no problem here, son!”
:hmmm:

Suffering and mercy cannot be reduced to math. If suffering was irrelevant in the long term then in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest and the Levite would be right to walk on by, and the Samaritan wasting his time acting in mercy.
 
:hmmm:

Suffering and mercy cannot be reduced to math. If suffering was irrelevant in the long term then in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest and the Levite would be right to walk on by, and the Samaritan wasting his time acting in mercy.
But a recent discussion on the Amelakites came up with just that sort of argument. Those who considered it an actual event ordered by God were in a mind to justify it with the same type of arithmetic. It’s quite common.
 
But a recent discussion on the Amelakites came up with just that sort of argument. Those who considered it an actual event ordered by God were in a mind to justify it with the same type of arithmetic. It’s quite common.
I guess it’s a kind of über-utilitarianism - the positive utility points of eternal bliss supposedly outweigh any amount of suffering. But the parable proves that Jesus, and therefore God, doesn’t hold with such accountancy tricks.
 
I guess it’s a kind of über-utilitarianism - the positive utility points of eternal bliss supposedly outweigh any amount of suffering. But the parable proves that Jesus, and therefore God, doesn’t hold with such accountancy tricks.
Where did I hear it said that God isn’t an accountant?

I agree with you. There’s a religion that believes God causes everything to happen and everything is God’s will and so there is apathy.

In a way we think like that too, theologically at least. But there is cooperation needed and we do believe that faith is not a feeling but a movement. Faith causes you to MOVE and take action.

Fran
 
But a recent discussion on the Amelakites came up with just that sort of argument. Those who considered it an actual event ordered by God were in a mind to justify it with the same type of arithmetic. It’s quite common.
I don’t know about that discussion.

But if everything is according to God’s Providence, then, of course, everything is God’s will. Nothing happens without His permission. Does this mean that we’re to do nothing about anything?? I’m sure you don’t believe this.

Man’s will and cooperation are in there somewhere. This, for me, is the most difficult concept to grasp in Christianity. Which is why conversation about children and cancer is pretty useless since if God so willed it, it COULD end right now. Which brings us to the problem of evil. Another pretty useless conversation since NO ONE has the answer and it’s just something that has to be accepted.

Not everything has an answer.

Fran
 
:hmmm:

Suffering and mercy cannot be reduced to math.
Well, yeah. No one is reducing anything here, friend.
If suffering was irrelevant in the long term then in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest and the Levite would be right to walk on by, and the Samaritan wasting his time acting in mercy.
To wit: saying that the discussion with zy was a reduction to math is like saying the parable here is a reduction to traveling. “Mercy and compassion cannot be reduced to traveling”.
 
But a recent discussion on the Amelakites came up with just that sort of argument. Those who considered it an actual event ordered by God were in a mind to justify it with the same type of arithmetic. It’s quite common.
And it’s a great point that is being made by us, too. 🙂

Just to clarify: I do not believe that it was an actual event ordered by God, but I do offer the arithmetic argument.

#itsagoodone
 
This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of basic math.

A lifetime (let’s say, 90 years) of suffering plus an infinite amount of eternal bliss is indistinguishable from 2 hours of suffering plus an infinite amount of eternal bliss.

#dothemath
To wit: saying that the discussion with zy was a reduction to math is like saying the parable here is a reduction to traveling. “Mercy and compassion cannot be reduced to traveling”.
🤷
 
Yes. It is about math. And someone’s inability to understand basic math.

Just not* reduced *to math.

Just like the parable of the Good Samaritan is about a traveler.

Just not* reduced* to about a traveler.
 
Yes. It is about math. And someone’s inability to understand basic math.

Just not* reduced *to math.

Just like the parable of the Good Samaritan is about a traveler.

Just not* reduced* to about a traveler.
😃
 
But if everything is according to God’s Providence, then, of course, everything is God’s will. Nothing happens without His permission.
So when the child asks about a young friends death. We have two answers.

One, from the atheist, which has been discounted, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but things like this do happen, despite everything we could to prevent it’.

Two, from the Christian, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but it was God’s will, despite everything we caould do to prevent it’.
 
So when the child asks about a young friends death. We have two answers.

One, from the atheist, which has been discounted, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but things like this do happen, despite everything we could to prevent it’.

Two, from the Christian, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but it was God’s will, despite everything we caould do to prevent it’.
Better no God than one who is cruel and indifferent, right?
Believing that there is nothing more than the few years that fly by ever more quickly, leads to such sentiments because there is so much fail in this world.
If this world is it, there is no God.
I know God exists; so I figure there is probably an afterlife like the one revealed through the church.

We do not bring ourselves into existance and we cannot be blamed for what will inevitably happen to all.

Usually, we say, “They are with God, praying for you and watching over you. Their love will never die.” Something to that effect because that is what we believe.
 
Again, tell that to your 10 yr old son when he asks why his sweet little cousin died of cancer. “There’s no problem here, son!”
I already did, and you agreed that there is no PHILOSOPHICAL problem here. There is a physical problem, of course, which we cannot prevent - as of now. Why do you keep going back to already resolved questions?
It is amusing to see the degree of credulity that must be swallowed to endorse your worldview.
Reality does not need credulity. “Excrement happens”. Explain how a tornado flattens every second house on a street and spares the other ones - in philosophical or theological terms. That is how a tornado works as a force of nature. There is no philosophical problem here either. (And your expression of “credulity which must be swallowed” reeks of condescension and insult. But I guess YOU are allowed to do it…)
I find “because we have free will” to be the most sensible.
It is not applicable to “natural evil”. Try again. Free will has nothing to do with diseases, tornadoes, tsunamis and other “ACTS of God”. Interesting expression, don’t you think? How is it that only negative events are referred to as “acts of God”? What is your most “adequate” explanation for the “natural evils”?
Because it’s a trenchant question and it’s one you have yet to answer.
No, it is not. Of course I am aware what you try to say here. It is the old cop-out: “MAYBE there is a perfectly good explanation for all these so-called problems, but you are simply too stupid or ignorant to understand it”. The answer to this is: “hogwash”. “Maybe” does not explain anything. If God would come and explain, we would know the reason. But God does not do that. So you are left as the advocate in God’s defense. The trouble is you are just as ignorant as everyone else. Maybe you could call upon the church (which is infallible in the matters of faith and morals) and find out the official answer for “natural evils”. I can hardly wait. But I suspect that there is none. You just have to resort to your faith (blind faith).
What does compassion look like in the face of no suffering, no illness, no pain?

And bravery–how would that work in your world without adversity?
“LOOK LIKE”??? You mean something must be visible and tangible in order for you to accept it? What are you now, a materialist?
Ah, so you’re actually saying that there *couldn’t *be bravery in the world you created without adversity.
Oh, there is bravery, all right. Bravery is the mental attitude to oppose adversity. If there is no adversity, it is simply dormant. The same for compassion. IF there would be a situation where compassion would be required, the people would exhibit it.

Of course with sufficiently advanced technology we could actually test it. We can create a convincing “virtual reality environment” where the people would have the opportunity to exhibit their compassion and bravery without having someone else be exposed to harmful effects.

It is rather strange that you advocate pain, suffering and misery so that people can act in a brave or compassionate manner. I wonder if you had the same attitude, if it was YOU or YOUR CHILDREN who had to endure the pain. Would you volunteer to have your children to be exposed to some serious pain and suffering just so that someone else could PRACTICE compassion? I don’t think so. What should we call someone who advocates other people’s suffering, but does not want to be the guinea pig herself… I think the proper word is: a HYPOCRITE!
Amen, brother! Preach it!

You are correctly espousing Catholic teaching here. 👍
That is exactly what I have been “preaching”. The whole “problem of evil” would disappear if only God “willed it”.

So why don’t you practice it? 🙂 Whenever you try to come up with an instance for the “problem of evil”, just answer yourself: “God could fix it without any side effects”… and the problem would be solved. That is what omnipotence could do… if there would be an omnipotent being. The only problem is that God does NOT “fix” it. And that is the fundamental problem which no believer can solve.
 
Better no God than one who is cruel and indifferent, right?
Believing that there is nothing more than the few years that fly by ever more quickly, leads to such sentiments because there is so much fail in this world.
If this world is it, there is no God.
I know God exists; so I figure there is probably an afterlife like the one revealed through the church.

We do not bring ourselves into existance and we cannot be blamed for what will inevitably happen to all.

Usually, we say, “They are with God, praying for you and watching over you. Their love will never die.” Something to that effect because that is what we believe.
I see no problem in what I might consider to be an indifferent God. Nature is often seen to be so. That God might be doesn’t concern me

Child: But why did he die?
Bradski: Sometimes bad things happen and as much as we do, we can’t stop it.
C: But Grandma says he’s in heaven and we’ll see him again.
B: Yes. That’s what she believes and it helps her deal with the pain.
C: Do you believe the same thing?
B: No, I don’t.
C: But who is right?
B: We don’t know. No-one can be certain.
C: So what should I believe?
B: Well, you should listen to what everyone has to say, treat their beliefs with respect, read and learn about these things and then as you get older you’ll be able to make up your own mind.
 
So when the child asks about a young friends death. We have two answers.

One, from the atheist, which has been discounted, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but things like this do happen, despite everything we could to prevent it’.
“And we don’t really have an explanation for why things like this do happen”.
Two, from the Christian, is: ‘We’re all sorry, but it was God’s will, despite everything we caould do to prevent it’.
“And we know that God will make good come from this. Your little friend is at peace, in heaven, suffering no more, watching you and praying for you now.”
 
I already did,
No, sir. You did not. You have not said what you would tell a 10 yr old when he asks why his little cousin died of cancer.
and you agreed that there is no PHILOSOPHICAL problem here. There is a physical problem
Er, no. I did not.



I said that I wouldn’t engage in a deep philosophical discussion with a 10 year old…but if a 10 year old asks a question, I will answer it with the best answer which meets his developmental level.

You still need to say what the atheistic answer is.

And hope that it’s not woefully inadequate.

A 10 yr old deserves an answer to his question, not obfuscation.
of course, which we cannot prevent - as of now.
Do you object to the God of the Gaps paradigm?

It would be amusing if you did, because the above sentiments sounds suspiciously like…

the Science of the Gaps paradigm. 😃

“We don’t have the answer now, folks, but Science, man! Science has it going on and is going to figure it out!”"

What is that but a Science of the Gaps modus of addressing questions?
 
“And we don’t really have an explanation for why things like this do happen”.
Sure we do. That is how this world works. There is no “why”, there is only “how”. Would be nice if it would be different. But we are working on it. Year after year we make more and more diseases treatable. We produce more food to help hunger. Maybe some day we shall be able to treat that cancer that killed your friend. Maybe we shall be able to regulate the weather, so there will be no famine, and no hunger. We do what we can. It may not be sufficient, but it sure is much more than God’s (IN)action.
“And we know that God will make good come from this. Your little friend is at peace, in heaven, suffering no more, watching you and praying for you now.”
Now the little kid asks:

If to be with God is so wonderful, then why doesn’t God call ME to be with him? I could pray for all my little friends to be called to be with God… and then we all would be happy. Looks like God does not love me.

Be careful with children. They can see through the “bovine waste-product” types of arguments.
 
B: Well, you should listen to what everyone has to say, treat their beliefs with respect, read and learn about these things and then as you get older you’ll be able to make up your own mind.
👍

Although I will tweak the above a bit. You should treat *people *with respect, but some beliefs, well, they should NOT be treated with respect.

To wit:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20227&d=1403928673

#notallbeliefsaredeservingofrespect
 
“LOOK LIKE”??? You mean something must be visible and tangible in order for you to accept it? What are you now, a materialist?
sigh

When someone says, “What would that look like”, it is a way of asking for a description of your concept of something.

It does not need to be visible and tangible.

When you say that there could be bravery without any bad thing in the world, it seems incoherent to me.

How does that happen?

I am asking you to describe what you are imagining.

Because it is a cognitive dissonance to me to hear you say that, so I need further explanation.
Oh, there is bravery, all right. Bravery is the mental attitude to oppose adversity. If there is no adversity, it is simply dormant.
LOL!

“There is bravery without adversity but it’s dormant”.

Dormant?

Dormant?

This…this…I can’t even address.

I am sorry, zy, but I think I am going to have to bow out of discussions with you after reading this.

I just can’t…
 
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