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Ortho
Guest
I am impressed by anyone who finds comfort, peace, and a fulfilling relationshio with God.Really? Are we supposed to be impressed by that?
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discipleofJesus
Guest
This is getting repetative.
As I stated above (see post #19)
"why do so many people think it is legitimate to compare Christians doing something **against what the Bible teaches ** to Muslims doing something in accordance with what the Quran teaches?
It is obviously wrong to compare like this."
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
even if what r.gonzales said about his wife is true, that does not prove that Islam treats women well. the evidence i provided in my above posts shows that Islam treats women badly.
O
Ortho
Guest
One can find orders from God in the bible to go out and kill folks. Christians have reasonable interpretations for these passages, and have a reasonable explanation for why they are not considered normative.
However, many folks find passages in the Quran, and insist they are the comnpetent interpreters of those passages. They do not ask how Muslims interpret the passages; rather they tell Muslims how they should be interpreted.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
this pretty much sums up what the whole orientalist mentality revolves around. “they cannot represent themselves; they must be represented,” as edward said quotes marx at the beginning of his book, orientalism. they know us better than we know ourselves.
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Booklover
Guest
Muslims do the same with our scriptures!
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discipleofJesus
Guest
get over the orientalist, missionary etc ad hominems, they’re getting old
O
Ortho
Guest
Yes they do. Laziness and intellectual sloppiness is not unique to any particular group.
O
Ortho
Guest
That is a very fair criticism of Orientalism. I am not a fan of Edward Said, but I respect his work and he made many very good points. I suspect such criticism of Orientalism will return over and over again since many of the conclusions of the Orientalists are presented in these threads.
We can easily see in Iraq that the US was generally woefully ignorant of Arab culture. The military is trying to fix this as fast as they can, but there is a lot of catching up to be done.
For example, we don’t understand the operation of the family in Arab culture. Many of us who worked in Arab countries learned that the first thing one does when presented with a problem is to understand the family structure of the people involved. Knowing who to approach, and approaching him with respect, can mean success rather than failure.
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Faith101
Guest
Many priests like to molest young children…therefore, being that htey are the most learned about the religion, Christianity promotes this. My conclusion is that Christianity promotes what these priests have done!
See how stupid that sounds…that’s what your doing.
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r.gonzales
Guest
why, when all your posts–as well as the posts of many others here–are strewn with their fruits?
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George_Waters
Guest
What is really sad is that more people on this forum are de facto defending the Islamic Republic of Iran than a poor 17 year old girl who has been sentenced to death for defending her virtue and her family’s honor against a group of would be rapist!
We are told not to judge Islam by what its follower do or even what an Islamic theocracy does, than how am I to judge Islam? You can claim that as Catholic Priests have molested children Catholicism must condone this. We do not; we are outraged by it! I will NEVER defend a child molester, especially a priest. Why has no Muslim on this forum expressed their outrage of this breech of justice? Where is the peace and compassion of Islam?
We are told not to judge Islam by what its follower do or even what an Islamic theocracy does, than how am I to judge Islam? You can claim that as Catholic Priests have molested children Catholicism must condone this. We do not; we are outraged by it! I will NEVER defend a child molester, especially a priest. Why has no Muslim on this forum expressed their outrage of this breech of justice? Where is the peace and compassion of Islam?
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TheRaiders
Guest
Many priests do not molest children, if you look at the statistics. The only thing the adjective “many” may be applied to is that many of the gay priests ordained in the 60’s and early 70’s molested children. Since then, there have been very, very few cases, especialy when you compare it to the rest of the population.
Practicing homosexuality is blatantly wrong in Christianity, as is a priest molesting anyone, or even having consenting sex with anyone.
So notice that the abuse scandal (which is realy a scandal coming to light now, but that happened over 20 years ago) clearly and unquestioningly goes against Catholic doctrine, the Bible, and is not the norm by any means. We are ashamed of the scandal, and doing things to fix it.
The question us Christians have for Muslims is can you say these same things about your problems? Terrorism: Do you condemn it? Is is supported by your religion? Are terrorists good Muslims? What about the one’s in the new Iraq police and military? Are they bad Muslims?
I haven’t heard to many Muslims answer this. If they did I would be content.
As for women: Are you ashamed of how they are treated currently? If so, what do you propose to fix the problem? Are these treatments supported by Islam?
Patrick
Practicing homosexuality is blatantly wrong in Christianity, as is a priest molesting anyone, or even having consenting sex with anyone.
So notice that the abuse scandal (which is realy a scandal coming to light now, but that happened over 20 years ago) clearly and unquestioningly goes against Catholic doctrine, the Bible, and is not the norm by any means. We are ashamed of the scandal, and doing things to fix it.
The question us Christians have for Muslims is can you say these same things about your problems? Terrorism: Do you condemn it? Is is supported by your religion? Are terrorists good Muslims? What about the one’s in the new Iraq police and military? Are they bad Muslims?
I haven’t heard to many Muslims answer this. If they did I would be content.
As for women: Are you ashamed of how they are treated currently? If so, what do you propose to fix the problem? Are these treatments supported by Islam?
Patrick
I
inJESUS
Guest
ok…instead of wasting time, why dont you explain the verses that DiscipleofJesus put? or maybe these:
Islam considers the wife a possession. “Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons, heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses…” Surah 3: 14
“Bad omen is in the women, the house and the horse”
Al Bukhary vol. 7:30
“After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women” Al Bukhary vol. 7:33
A man may marry up to four wives at one time. “Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four…” Surah 4:3
A man can divorce his wife by oral announcement; the wife has no such right. “divorce is permissible twice” Surah 2:229
When a husband has pronounced divorce three times on his wife, she then may not lawfully remarry her husband until she has married and been divorced by another man (including having sexual intercourse with him}. “…So if a husband divorces his wife he cannot after that, remarry her until after she has married another husband, and he has divorced her” Surah 2:230
-Islam teaches that a wife is subject to punishment by her husband, beating a wife or abstaining from sexual relations with her is allowed, “As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them…” Surah 4:34
Islam considers the wife a sex object. “your wives are as a tilth (a field to be ploughed) unto you, so approach your tilth, when or how ye will” Surah 2:223
-Unnatural sex is allowed "Narrated Jabir: Jews used to say; if one has sexual intercourse with his wife from the back, then she will deliver a squint-eyed child. So this verse was revealed: Your wives are a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will. (whether in a natural or unnatural way). Al Bukhary vol. 6:51
Maybe you can explain these verses .
Furthermore, you cannot consider the USA Christian. It is full of everything. Compare the Christian marriage in Christianity and the muslim marriage.
And Faith101, If a priest commits an immoral act, try to look at the bible to see if it condones it; if not, save us these posts
Islam considers the wife a possession. “Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons, heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses…” Surah 3: 14
“Bad omen is in the women, the house and the horse”
Al Bukhary vol. 7:30
“After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women” Al Bukhary vol. 7:33
A man may marry up to four wives at one time. “Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four…” Surah 4:3
A man can divorce his wife by oral announcement; the wife has no such right. “divorce is permissible twice” Surah 2:229
When a husband has pronounced divorce three times on his wife, she then may not lawfully remarry her husband until she has married and been divorced by another man (including having sexual intercourse with him}. “…So if a husband divorces his wife he cannot after that, remarry her until after she has married another husband, and he has divorced her” Surah 2:230
-Islam teaches that a wife is subject to punishment by her husband, beating a wife or abstaining from sexual relations with her is allowed, “As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them…” Surah 4:34
Islam considers the wife a sex object. “your wives are as a tilth (a field to be ploughed) unto you, so approach your tilth, when or how ye will” Surah 2:223
-Unnatural sex is allowed "Narrated Jabir: Jews used to say; if one has sexual intercourse with his wife from the back, then she will deliver a squint-eyed child. So this verse was revealed: Your wives are a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will. (whether in a natural or unnatural way). Al Bukhary vol. 6:51
Maybe you can explain these verses .
Furthermore, you cannot consider the USA Christian. It is full of everything. Compare the Christian marriage in Christianity and the muslim marriage.
And Faith101, If a priest commits an immoral act, try to look at the bible to see if it condones it; if not, save us these posts
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Faith101
Guest
George Waters:
Judge Islam by the Quran and the authentic hadith of the Prophet, peace be upon him.
You dont think that Muslims are outraged by the crazy things that ppl do in the name of Islam? Do you know there is a punishment for men who accuse women of being unchaste without any proof? Now, someone posts someething about a woman who was trying to defend herself being punished with death?? and where is the proof that this is Islamic? there is no proof…only “you prove that its not” Its frustrating…and on top of that, you want us to wave our hands around and yell everytime someone mentiones something like that? whats the point here? In terms of action, there is action being taken all over the world to bring ppl out the darkness that is their ignorance of Islam.
I dont know if you were a member of this forum or not at the time, but someone had posted an article where somewhere in the world…a Muslim girl who was raped by her father in law was forced to marry him. And we sat there posting verses from the Quran, which totally condemn such actions. You know what happened?..nothing… the same ppl that posted that, post things like this.
Peace George,
Judge Islam by the Quran and the authentic hadith of the Prophet, peace be upon him.
You dont think that Muslims are outraged by the crazy things that ppl do in the name of Islam? Do you know there is a punishment for men who accuse women of being unchaste without any proof? Now, someone posts someething about a woman who was trying to defend herself being punished with death?? and where is the proof that this is Islamic? there is no proof…only “you prove that its not” Its frustrating…and on top of that, you want us to wave our hands around and yell everytime someone mentiones something like that? whats the point here? In terms of action, there is action being taken all over the world to bring ppl out the darkness that is their ignorance of Islam.
I dont know if you were a member of this forum or not at the time, but someone had posted an article where somewhere in the world…a Muslim girl who was raped by her father in law was forced to marry him. And we sat there posting verses from the Quran, which totally condemn such actions. You know what happened?..nothing… the same ppl that posted that, post things like this.
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Faith101
Guest
You’ve never heard of any Muslim condeming terrorism? You’ve never heard of any Muslim organization condeming terrorism?!
Women all over the world are suceptible to abuse, regardless of their religion.
Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never hit or even yelled at any of his wives. He is our example that we should follow. But just like some Christian men who dont understand the teachings of Jesus, so are some Muslim men who dont understand the teachings of Mohamed.
to fix the problem we have to eliminate the ignorance that we have of our religion.
O
Ortho
Guest
George Waters:
The topic has not been outrage at a breach of justice, but the reposnsibility for that breach. I think it is an outrage, but that opinion dos not mean I find Islam to be responsible.
However, I will note that expressions of outrage have nothing to do with reaponsibility for breaches of justice. A breach exists regardless of expressions of outrage. And responsibility exists or does not exist regardless of expressions.
I must have missed the defenders of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Who were they?
The topic has not been outrage at a breach of justice, but the reposnsibility for that breach. I think it is an outrage, but that opinion dos not mean I find Islam to be responsible.
However, I will note that expressions of outrage have nothing to do with reaponsibility for breaches of justice. A breach exists regardless of expressions of outrage. And responsibility exists or does not exist regardless of expressions.
M
Myangel
Guest
George Waters:
My prayers are with the 17 year old girl in Iran!
My prayers are with the 17 year old girl in Iran!
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TheRaiders
Guest
No, I have heard Muslims who condemn terrorism, but they are few and far between. My comment is that I haven’t heard too many condemn it. I ask you. Do you? Please answer my questions.
Are the Muslims working with coalition forces bad Mulims because of this?
Are suicide bombers good Muslims?
It is not meant to be a mean question. Either you believe these things or you don’t. Just tell me if you do.
Are the Muslims working with coalition forces bad Mulims because of this?
Are suicide bombers good Muslims?
It is not meant to be a mean question. Either you believe these things or you don’t. Just tell me if you do.
C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
Urrm… you mean when your hadith narrated about the intelligence deficiencey in women or what?
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