The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Thing]

You still don’t get it.

Catholicism is not the only church. Your own catechism calls the Orthodox a church.

Catholicism is not the only Christian religion. Your own catechism acknowledges us as Christian.

You don’t get it.
The orthodox were under the See of St. Peter for the first few centuries of the Church.
They do not, as I explained to you before, deny Catholic Dogma.
They are not a different religion, they simply look to a different Bishop.
So, yes they are a church, no they are not a different religion, yes they were Catholic, no they do not accept our Bishop so they are historical Catholics who are now in schism.
So, yes Catholicism is the Church and the orthodox are the church in schism.

If on the other hand they decided to teach a different Gospel they would cease to be the church and would be termed heretics, choosers of a different way.
So yes Catholicism is the only Church.

Catholicism is not the only Christian religion. Your own catechism acknowledges us as Christian

Good heavens, Ask Questions, how many Gospels did Christ preach. How can there be many christian religions.
Christ Himself said that He was the only way to the Father, there is no room for many christian religions. Christ either taught us the way or He did not, and the way He taught is the only True Religion.
You may be baptised in the Christian formula as all Catholics are, and you may live the Faith to the best of your ability as best you understand it as many Catholics do. But to start or claim to start a new religion is something different entirely. What you have is a measure of the one true faith, the one true religion - and like many Catholics also, your possession or grasp of the one true religion is in a varying state of incompleteness. Only through the Church He established, which is Himself, does one have hope for their salvation.

 

[NDfan]

Actually, what I am saying is that even if the Roman Catholic Church IS the “initial umbrella” per the dictionary it is still a denomination.

Yes I see that. But I don’t think you will convince others to see it that way. Let me ask you this. According to the English dictionary did Jesus then create a denomination?? Not trying to be flip at all just want to see where you thinking is.

 

[With_Questions]

Breaking this down one phrase at a time

The Catholic Church is NOT a division of Christianity,

Then the Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists are not Christian. Now that is not what your church believes, but I know some Catholics who claim that.

hence it is not a branch of Christianity, hence it is not a denomination.

That logic holds if indeed you are the only Christian group out there. Now I thought that any validly baptized person per Catholicism was Christian, but who knows maybe I am wrong.

Only Protestant groups are denominations. The Orthodox Church is not Protestant, hence it is not a denomination.

The English dictionary does not restrict the word “denomination” to Protestants. Again, I speak English.

 

[With_Questions]

Yes I see that. But I don’t think you will convince others to see it that way. Let me ask you this. According to the English dictionary did Jesus then create a denomination?? Not trying to be flip at all just want to see where you thinking is.

Actually all I am trying to get them to do is to stop correcting me when I use the word denomination. In the language that I speak, denomination is a proper term.

Good question.

According to one dictionary the word denomination can apply to a single unit. According to another dictionary, the word denomination only applies once the unit divides. I for the sake of this discussion use this definition.

So if I use this definition, denominations appear the first time that Christianity divided into multiple organizations. This might have been as early as 52AD when St. Thomas founded the church in India (since this church developed quite apart from the church that later was centered in Rome). It definitely occurred in the 400s with the Oriental Orthodox.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Then take that up with the dictionary, not with me.

However, the dictionaries are what we use to define the English language.

If you want to redefine words and declare that existing definitions as found in the English dictionary are not valid, go ahead. However, by doing so, you will in effect be creating another language that I do not choose to speak.

So yes, perhaps in your new language the Catholic church is not a denomination. However, in the language that I speak, that being English, it is.

Let’s play your game, shall we.

Nowhere in the definition of Catholic Church does the word denomination appear.

Now without creating your own language to avoid this fact, explain that? or accept that. Is the word denomination part of the dictionary definition of Catholic Church. yes or no?

If two believers differ on an aspect of faith to whom should they go, according to the only infallible source of revelation and not Webster’s dictionary?

That’s right … The Church.

Unfortunately you will continue to be corrected on this fact. The Church is not a denomination of itself.

Maybe we can start a thread on the topic of what the definition of “is” is, to show how silly 14 pages of answering your question and you not being able to accept it is.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

. In the language that I speak, denomination is a proper term.

It’s really more than about “a definition” for you. As your signature tag line suggests. You are coming to despise denominations. You would like to dismiss Christ’s Church, The Catholic Church as one of those evil denominations. It all in the word that you have chosen to use here.

Well it’s not a denomination. Try searching for Truth first, instead of coming to a conclusion and trying to prove it. The result will be closer to Truth, than your opinion.

 

[With_Questions]

Let’s play your game, shall we.

Nowhere in the definition of Catholic Church does the word denomination appear.

Now without creating your own language to avoid this fact, explain that? or accept that. Is the word denomination part of the dictionary definition of Catholic Church. yes or no?

That is not the way dictionaries work.

The way that dictionaries work is that you look at the defnition and determine if there is a match.

For example, I looked up acorn in the the dictionary and it is defined as the fruit of the oak.

Then I looked up oak, and behold, no mention of acorn.

That does not mean that acorn is not the fruit of the oak.

If two believers differ on an aspect of faith to whom should they go, according to the only infallible source of revelation and not Webster’s dictionary?

That’s right … The Church.

They go to the church on matters of faith and morals. However on matters of the English language they go to dictionaries and grammar textbooks.

Unfortunately you will continue to be corrected on this fact. The Church is not a denomination of itself.

Maybe we can start a thread on the topic of what the definition of “is” is, to show how silly 14 pages of answering your question and you not being able to accept it is.

I understand that in your language it is not. However, in the language that I speak (English) it is.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

That logic holds if indeed you are the only Christian group out there. Now I thought that any validly baptized person per Catholicism was Christian, but who knows maybe I am wrong.

Any validly baptized person is Christian.

BUT unless the baptized person is a member of the Church that person lacks the fullness of faith. They’re like “Christian Lite.”

 

[With_Questions]

It’s really more than about “a definition” for you. As your signature tag line suggests. You are coming to despise denominations. You would like to dismiss Christ’s Church, The Catholic Church as one of those evil denominations. It all in the word that you have chosen to use here.

Well it’s not a denomination. Try searching for Truth first, instead of coming to a conclusion and trying to prove it. The result will be closer to Truth, than your opinion.

Actually I don’t despise denominations. I am in one myself.

What I dislike is Christians arrogantly assuming that they are superior because of their denomination.

But that is off-topic. What I really want is to stop being corrected when I use a word validly in the language that I speak.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

You can’t have 2 originals.

Sure you can, how about siamese twins?

 

[NDfan]

Actually all I am trying to get them to do is to stop correcting me when I use the word denomination. In the language that I speak, denomination is a proper term.

Good question.

According to one dictionary the word denomination can apply to a single unit. According to another dictionary, the word denomination only applies once the unit divides. I for the sake of this discussion use this definition.

So if I use this definition, denominations appear the first time that Christianity divided into multiple organizations. This might have been as early as 52AD when St. Thomas founded the church in India (since this church developed quite apart from the church that later was centered in Rome). It definitely occurred in the 400s with the Oriental Orthodox.

So then according to definition 1: a denomination being a single unit means Christ founded a denomination. So that denomination is labeled Christianity. Accordingly then it would make sense that by this definition there’s one denomination of Christianity. So what does that by this definition make Methodists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics etc.??

If we follow definition 2 then we don’t have denominations until there is a split. By the other definition is the original version that the splits came out of considered a denomination? Even though it would be the original? Again not being flip just trying to follow the definitions you are citing.

Thanks

 

[With_Questions]

Any validly baptized person is Christian.

BUT unless the baptized person is a member of the Church that person lacks the fullness of faith. They’re like “Christian Lite.”

The definition of denomination in the dictionary of the language that I speak is silent on the relative superiority or inferiority of denominations to each other. So it is perfectly possible that one denomination could be denomination: fullness of truth and another be denomination: Christian Lite.

If they are both Christian then they are both denominations. At least in the language that I speak.

 

[NDfan]

Sure you can, how about siamese twins?

That’s a bad analogy but a funny one. You can’t have 2 original churches. One has to be the original and the other would have to be a separate version. The Orthodox have some very big differences doctrinally when compared to the RCC. For one they don’t submit to the infallibility of the Pope. They also don’t believe in revelation of new doctrine, don’t believe in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception etc. etc.

These differences are too significant to say that both are the originals so this is incorrect. That being said which one is the original church? The Orthodox would say they are and that the Bishop of Rome split off. And vice versa.

 

[With_Questions]

So then according to definition 1: a denomination being a single unit means Christ founded a denomination. So that denomination is labeled Christianity. Accordingly then it would make sense that by this definition there’s one denomination of Christianity. So what does that by this definition make Methodists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics etc.??

Not quite.

This definition was

a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

So when Christianity was one organization, according to this definition it also was one denomination. Once it split into two
organizations, each of these organizations became a denomination. At that point the whole was no longer a denomination. At least that is the way that I read this.

If we follow definition 2 then we don’t have denominations until there is a split. By the other definition is the original version that the splits came out of considered a denomination? Even though it would be the original? Again not being flip just trying to follow the definitions you are citing.

Thanks

Yes it would

This definition would be

a recognized branch of a church or religion

And to be thorough I also looked up branch and found

a division of a large organization, group, etc.

So once Christianity divided each part became a division of the group Christian.

Think of Methodist. At one time there was one Methodist denomination. At that time you wouldn’t apply the word denomination to Methodist since it was a unit of one. You say though that Methodist was a Protestant (or Christian) denomination.

Now since the original Methodist church has split. One of these must be the original (we for the sake of argument will say it is the United Methodist). However, the United Methodist and all the groups that split from it (Free Methodist, Wesleyan) are Methodist denominations.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The definition of denomination in the dictionary of the language that I speak is silent on the relative superiority or inferiority of denominations to each other. So it is perfectly possible that one denomination could be denomination: fullness of truth and another be denomination: Christian Lite.

If they are both Christian then they are both denominations. At least in the language that I speak.

With Questions:

You go on and on about you speak English and refuse to speak any other language which uses different definitions of words other than those used in the dictionary. But that isn’t really true is it?

If you were a philosopher and I was not, and you took to discussing “accidents” I would think “mishaps” but you would not mean mishaps, you would mean “happenstance” to put things on a very simple level.

If you were a cook and I was an environmental engineer what you mean when you say “emergency clean-up” and what I mean when I say it are two completely different things and far less serious by several orders of magnitude.

Every discipline whether music, domestic engineering, theology or brain surgery has its own language even though they were all speaking English.

If you want to jump into the Catholic pool to swim with us, you are certainly welcome, but you had best learn to communicate with us, otherwise when you start screaming “help, I’m drowning” the life guard might not understand.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Actually I don’t despise denominations. I am in one myself.

What I dislike is Christians arrogantly assuming that they are superior because of their denomination.

But that is off-topic. What I really want is to stop being corrected when I use a word validly in the language that I speak.

…for the record

Using the phase for the last nine pages “in the language that I speak” is arrogant and smacks of superiority because of some supposed understanding that only you have and no one else can understand. You know very well that we speak the same language.

There appears to be a contradiction in what you are trying to get across and what you do.

Your tag line says “I am coming to despise denominationalism”, no quotes, it seems to be your quote not someone else’s. You speak of superiority as something that needs to be undone, but then you signature line says that you are coming to despise the very thing that you claim the Church is.

Your words do carry meaning.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis my brother is Notre Dame going to play better this year or what?? Hopefully the blowout of Hawaii is a preview of the upcoming year.

I’ll say this on this topic. I agree that the universal church could never be a denomination. That would be like saying Jesus started a denomination Jesus started Christianity and built a church we call universal because it has no bounds. There’s no denomination there.

Now that begs the question. Is the Roman Church a denomination? Is the Eastern Orthodox Church a denomination? I believe your answer will be the Roman Catholic church is the original church so no it can’t be a denomination. But I think this is the stumbling point of the argument. Many Protestants do not see the Roman Catholic Church as being the original church because of the creation of some specific doctrines they think were not part of the original church. I’m including all Rites within this mind you. Simply that underneath the umbrella of Christianity you have denominations which includes Roman Catholics and their doctrines, EOs and theirs, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. etc. and theirs.

I think you’re assertion is that the Roman Catholic Church IS the initial umbrella. Is that a fair statement? If so then this discussion will never get resolved so you would have to just agree to disagree.

I totally agree with you. Nothing can be resolved if somebody is steadfast in the belief that Jesus started a denomination.
**And, yes - I do believe that the Catholic Church IS the initial umbrella. **

Peace, brotha!

PS - As for the Irish - if Charlie can’t pull the rabbit out of the hat next season - what would you think of Chuckie (John Gruden) taking over at the helm? I’ve heard talk . . .

 

[elvisman]

OK. Because you say so I suppose.
Catholic means Universal - as in the one universal Church that Jesus established (Matt. 16:15-19).

I use the English dictionary not the Catholic dictionary. English is the language that I speak.

If you want to speak to me in another language go ahead. However in the language that I speak, the Catholic church is a denomination.

I don’t think that this debate can ever be resolved if you remain steadfast in your belief that Jesus started a denomination.
Did he?

---

Not according to the Scriptures. According to Scripture, he started a Church. Rebellious MEN started denominations that broke off from that Church.

 

[NDfan]

**I totally **agree with you. Nothing can be resolved if somebody is steadfast in the belief that Jesus started a denomination.
And, yes - I do believe that the Catholic Church IS the initial umbrella.

Peace, brotha!

Peace to you my brotha

PS - As for the Irish - if Charlie can’t pull the rabbit out of the hat next season - what would you think of Chuckie (John Gruden) taking over at the helm? I’ve heard talk . . .

Chuckie

I’ve heard that talk as well. I think I would have to agree with you. But that’s assuming Chuckie is still available. Although no one in the NFL seems to be too interested in him. He may do very well at ND.

 

[With_Questions]

This ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, seems like the first really intelligent response I have gotten on this thread.

With Questions:

You go on and on about you speak English and refuse to speak any other language which uses different definitions of words other than those used in the dictionary. But that isn’t really true is it?

If you were a philosopher and I was not, and you took to discussing “accidents” I would think “mishaps” but you would not mean mishaps, you would mean “happenstance” to put things on a very simple level.

If you were a cook and I was an environmental engineer what you mean when you say “emergency clean-up” and what I mean when I say it are two completely different things and far less serious by several orders of magnitude.

Every discipline whether music, domestic engineering, theology or brain surgery has its own language even though they were all speaking English.

If you want to jump into the Catholic pool to swim with us, you are certainly welcome, but you had best learn to communicate with us, otherwise when you start screaming “help, I’m drowning” the life guard might not understand.

You are absolutely right. Every discipline has its technical language. Now I think the English dictionary tries to keep up with technical language, but I would not expect it to have all technical language of all disciplines.

To verify this, I looked up the word “trigger” in the dictionary and behold there was no mention of a DB/2 object that is fired when a row is inserted/updated/deleted from a table causing rows to be inserted/updated/deleted in other tables.

It just ain’t there. Too bad.

However…

Technical definitions do not override existing common, definitions. The word trigger still means.

a device that releases a spring or catch and so sets off a mechanism, especially in order to fire a gun.

So continuing with this analogy, perhaps Catholicism can have a technical definition of the word denomination. However this technical definition can not override the existing definition found in the English dictionary.