The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Thing]

So…contrary to your previous post, even within Catholicism, the noun church is not unique within the adjective Catholic.

Therefore according to the definition you supplied, both branches of the OR condition are true.

Even though only one need be true in order for the statement to be true.

So according to the definition you supplied, the Roman Catholic Church is a branch of both 'religion" and “church” and therefore is a denomination.

Thank God we don’t get our Truth from our dictionaries.
The definition did not say ‘religion’, ‘church’.
It said, ‘a religion’, ‘or a church’

Your definition says a recognized branch of a church or a religion.

Christianity as a religion and the Christian Church Christ founded were and are both unique events and things.
Christianity did not evolve into something else so there is never any question of branches in either. It always is.

 

[With_Questions]

Thank God we don’t get our Truth from our dictionaries.
The definition did not say ‘religion’, ‘church’.
It said, ‘a religion’, ‘or a church’

Christianity as a religion and the Christian Church Christ founded were and are both unique events and things.
Christianity did not evolve into something else so there is never any question of branches in either. It always is.

I must assume then that you believe the Catholic faith to be the only Christian religion. And everybody else is not Christian.

Now, this is not what your denomination teaches (it teaches that every validly baptized person is a Christian), but I know that some Catholics believe this. I have seen web sites that support this.

So I assume you believe this then (in opposition to your own church).

Otherwise, you are just spouting forth nonsense.

I am not going to continue to debate nonsense.

 

[Michael_David]

Is it a ‘debate’ or a ‘discussion’?

 

[Thing]

The only way that the Roman Catholic church is not a branch of the religion Christianity would be if all of the other supposed branches are not Christian. Then Catholic would be unique to Christian.

To make the argument you are making, I must assume you believe this. Otherwise you are spouting forth nonsense.

Now if you do believe this, you are choosing to disbelieve the teaching of your own church that believes any validly baptized person is Christian. But that is another issue.

Oh joy, you have discovered the nonsense in it all. Christianity was always Catholicism, ever since Christ ordered the Apostles out to all the nations and St. Peter echoed the command saying the message was for you and for your children and for those far away, - making Christianity a universal message, or Catholic in nature.
How was this Universal Christianity practiced, I hear you ask, well as the Apostle says; gather together on the first day of the week, the Lords Day, Sunday, for the breaking of bread, the eucharist, and prayers, making sure you do not receive the eucharist unworthily least you bring condemnation upon yourself, hence, confess your sins one and all to each other. That is still the same two thousand years later - it is the Mass described, which we still attend every Sunday morning.
Also we are told by Christ and His Apostles to be baptised with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, to be confirmed by the laying on of hands, to annoint the sick and so on and so forth - all of which are practiced and present in the same Catholic Church.
But what about the nonsense, you say. What about the Catholics who left in 700AD, or in 1035AD, or in 1567AD, or whatever, what about them. Why, who knows, Ask Questions, do you know what happens to them, because I don’t. What happened to the Apostles and Disciples who left Christ to go their own way, what happens to those who think perhaps that they believe in Christ and call Lord, Lord, what happens to them. What did Christ tell us happens them, - I don’t know, - what did He say, perhaps I don’t remember - maybe they’ll be ok, I just cannot say, but I hope so, I wish no ill to anyone, but Christ did not tell us what happens to protestants, we don’t Know…
…and thats the nonsense of it all.

 

[With_Questions]

Oh joy, you have discovered the nonsense in it all. Christianity was always Catholicism, ever since Christ ordered the Apostles out to all the nations and St. Peter echoed the command saying the message was for you and for your children and for those far away, - making Christianity a universal message, or Catholic in nature.
How was this Universal Christianity practiced, I hear you ask, well as the Apostle says; gather together on the first day of the week, the Lords Day, Sunday, for the breaking of bread, the eucharist, and prayers, making sure you do not receive the eucharist unworthily least you bring condemnation upon yourself, hence, confess your sins one and all to each other. That is still the same two thousand years later - it is the Mass described, which we still attend every Sunday morning.
Also we are told by Christ and His Apostles to be baptised with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, to be confirmed by the laying on of hands, to annoint the sick and so on and so forth - all of which are practiced and present in the same Catholic Church.
But what about the nonsense, you say. What about the Catholics who left in 700AD, or in 1035AD, or in 1567AD, or whatever, what about them. Why, who knows, Ask Questions, do you know what happens to them, because I don’t. What happened to the Apostles and Disciples who left Christ to go their own way, what happens to those who think perhaps that they believe in Christ and call Lord, Lord, what happens to them. What did Christ tell us happens them, - I don’t know, - what did He say, perhaps I don’t remember - maybe they’ll be ok, I just cannot say, but I hope so, I wish no ill to anyone, but Christ did not tell us what happens to protestants, we don’t Know…
…and thats the nonsense of it all.

OK.

You disagree with your own denomination…err. church, but whatever.

 

[allhers]

The EARLY CHURCH FATHERS were taught by the diciples of the Apostles. The Orthodox have the writings of their Partiarchs also, they are correctly defined as Church. We are the Church, founded by Jesus Himself. We call Pentacost the birthday of the Church, when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon HIS Apostles.

Protestants are not defined as Church by us, they are denominations. This is the way it has always been. People, such as yourself starting calling us a denomination, we are not and never have been, we are The Church, not a denomination started by any ole’ man.

We are the first Christians, we do not deny that their are other Christians, however, all Catholics are Christians, the very first ones, I might add.

 

[CWBetts]

It is quite simple. The original Christian Church was Catholic in theology. In the early years various heterodox groups sprouted up, but wre quickly corrected by the Holy Mother Church. Then, startign in the sixteenth century, a new crop of heterodox “churches” started sprouting up, all with an axe to grind over something in the Church. Even when the Catholic Church called the Council of Trent, where the abuses were rectified, the heterodox upstarts wew not satisified. They would be happy with nothing less than the destruction of the true Bride of Christ. What happened to these rebels, you ask? They have since multiplied into the thousands if distinct Protestant denominations. To this day they spew hatred towards Catholicism, claiming that they aren’t really Christian, or that thwey are vile and corrupt. One fact remains. Catholicism is the ONLY branch of Christianity that can trace it self to Jesus Christ. We don’t trace our roots to Constantine, or Augustine, or even Peter, but to the Son of the Living God. Methodists only go to Wesely. Lutherans to Luther. Prebetyrians to Calvin. Catholicism to Christ. Which makes the most sense to follow if you are going to call yourself Christian?

 

[With_Questions]

The EARLY CHURCH FATHERS were taught by the diciples of the Apostles. The Orthodox have the writings of their Partiarchs also, they are correctly defined as Church. We are the Church, founded by Jesus Himself. We call Pentacost the birthday of the Church, when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon HIS Apostles.

Protestants are not defined as Church by us, they are denominations. This is the way it has always been. People, such as yourself starting calling us a denomination, we are not and never have been, we are The Church, not a denomination started by any ole’ man.

We are the first Christians, we do not deny that their are other Christians, however, all Catholics are Christians, the very first ones, I might add.

OK.

You are then choosing to invent a new language and communicate your faith to me via the language you are inventing instead of the English language.

Which is ok if you want to do that. However I do not speak the language you are inventing, I speak English.

 

[Thing]

OK.

You disagree with your own denomination…err. church, but whatever.

Not at all. I agree with everything it teaches. Did’nt I tell you it was all nonsense. Be a Christian but not in His Church, be baptised but deny sacraments, accept a sacrament but deny its efficacy, accept its application but deny its givers authority to give.
Of course a validly baptised person is a validly baptised person who does’nt want to live in Christs Body with everyone else as Christ wishes. Tell me where this makes sense and tell me why it is and tell me it does’nt matter.

 

[allhers]

OK.

You are then choosing to invent a new language and communicate your faith to me via the language you are inventing instead of the English language.

Which is ok if you want to do that. However I do not speak the language you are inventing, I speak English.

Obviously I wrote in English and you understood every word, you just disagree with what I said. Like we told you earlier, the Church predates your dictionary.

 

[With_Questions]

At this point I have said all that can in this thread. Any more will be just repeating myself.

I will leave it to the reader to discern what is sense and what is nonsense here.

So unless something comes up which would enable me to say something new, I am not repeating myself.

 

[CWBetts]

At this point I have said all that can in this thread. Any more will be just repeating myself.

I will leave it to the reader to discern what is sense and what is nonsense here.

So unless something comes up which would enable me to say something new, I am not repeating myself.

This is pretty much the response of someone who has made up their mind before the discussion started, and just rfuses to accept he has lost

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Well thank you very much.

I for one consider your point to be much stronger when you go with the more conservative yet accurate figure as opposed to the inflated figure. In fact to me the inflated figure ruins your point at least to me.

Just two observations:

You do raise a valid question that I have not seen adequately answered. When Jesus designed the church, were denominations of Christianity a part of this design? Just how did Jesus design the church?

But also.

Just because denominations may not be what Jesus designed, it does not necessarily mean that you (or any other denomination) are right.

I believe this is the fundamental difference we are encountering here. For one you are applying the Catholic church to a human institution, it is not a human institution, she is the Kingdom of God on earth in the body of Jesus Christ.

The reason the Catholic church has out survived every Kingdom and nation that ever was is because it was instituted by Jesus himself.

The Catholic church what your addressing is not what Catholics for 2000 years believe in. She is the “Body of Jesus Christ” . Man including Peter is subject to error, but God is not. what God has joined together no man can put assunder. The Catholic church is the bride of Jesus Christ the bridegroom this is why she is the body of Jesus Christ on earth and Jesus is the head in heaven, ever present in the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic church has the protection of Holy Spirit, how else can you explain the Catholic church exisiting these 2000 years unchanged and will remain until Jesus comes for his bride.

 

[elvisman]

Since I am getting tired of quoting the dictionary every time this statement is made:

So unless you want to say that either your are not a religious organization or that you are not united, then you are a denomination. And if you want to claim that either the above are not true, then Protestants do not have denominations either.

So don’t argue with us any more. Take your dispute to the dictionary.

**Which denomination would we be be, WQ? **
If you say, “Roman” Catholic - you’re wrong because “Roman” or “Latin” is simply the Rite. So, which denomination are we?

I’ve debated Protestants all over these forums that claim to be Protestant, but “catholic”. These include Lutherans, Baptists, Non-Denominationlists, et al.

**Also, your profile says you’re a “Born Again Christian” - so am I. **How were you born again?

 

[With_Questions]

Which denomination would we be be, WQ?
If you say, "Roman" Catholic - you’re wrong because “Roman” or “Latin” is simply the Rite. So, which denomination are we?

I’ve debated Protestants all over these forums that claim to be Protestant, but "catholic". These include Lutherans, Baptists, Non-Denominationlists, et al.

Also, your profile says you’re a "Born Again Christian" - so am I. How were you born again?

What denomination: whatever you choose to call yourself is fine by me. Whether it be just plain Catholic or Roman Catholic or any other adjective Catholic.

This might be off-topic, but I was born again in a dorm room in college, although I am open to the possibility that I might have been born again earlier when I was confirmed in the Methodist church (if the earlier date is a true date…my high school years need some explaining).

 

[With_Questions]

I believe this is the fundamental difference we are encountering here. For one you are applying the Catholic church to a human institution, it is not a human institution, she is the Kingdom of God on earth in the body of Jesus Christ.

The reason the Catholic church has out survived every Kingdom and nation that ever was is because it was instituted by Jesus himself.

The Catholic church what your addressing is not what Catholics for 2000 years believe in. She is the “Body of Jesus Christ” . Man including Peter is subject to error, but God is not. what God has joined together no man can put assunder. The Catholic church is the bride of Jesus Christ the bridegroom this is why she is the body of Jesus Christ on earth and Jesus is the head in heaven, ever present in the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic church has the protection of Holy Spirit, how else can you explain the Catholic church exisiting these 2000 years unchanged and will remain until Jesus comes for his bride.

Of course that is what you believe. Now I do not, but that is not relevant to this thread.

In case what you have missed what I am saying…even if you are 100% correct in what you believe and I am 100% wrong (presumably I would find that out in purgatory), the definition of denomination in the dictionary and what you and everybody else here is trying to get through my thick head are not mutually exclusive. Thus according to the dictionary (2 of 'em) you are a denomination.

Sheesh, this is like pulling teeth. Just admit "Yes we are a denomination according to the English language according to the dictionary which defines the meaning of words in the English language…we are also ".

 

[elvisman]

What denomination: whatever you choose to call yourself is fine by me. Whether it be just plain Catholic or Roman Catholic or any other adjective Catholic.

This might be off-topic, but I was born again in a dorm room in college, although I am open to the possibility that I might have been born again earlier when I was confirmed in the Methodist church (if the earlier date is a true date…my high school years need some explaining).

I was born again at baptism - as prescribed in Scripture (Ezekiel 36:25, John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21)

You still haven’t shown me how the Catholic Church is a denomination. All of the Christian denominations were rebellious offshoots of the Catholic Church.

In the simplest of terms, think of them as spinoffs of a TV series. The original TV series is not the spinoff. Does that help?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Of course that is what you believe. Now I do not, but that is not relevant to this thread.

In case what you have missed what I am saying…even if you are 100% correct in what you believe and I am 100% wrong (presumably I would find that out in purgatory), the definition of denomination in the dictionary and what you and everybody else here is trying to get through my thick head are not mutually exclusive. Thus according to the dictionary (2 of 'em) you are a denomination.

Sheesh, this is like pulling teeth. Just admit "Yes we are a denomination according to the English language according to the dictionary which defines the meaning of words in the English language…we are also ".

I dont think your seeing what Jesus established on earth. The Catholic church is not a body of believers with a name as your definition implies from a denomination. The Catholic church is the “body of Jesus Christ” a living Person! “with questions”. This is the fundamental difference that needs to be deciphered.

How can one put a “denomination” term to a living person, the definition or term (denomination) does not apply to the Catholic church.

No one is debating the definition of the word denomination, what is trying to be expressed here, the term does not apply to the Catholic church, because she is living and alive where Jesus himself is sacramentally present always in person. Again “denomination” does not define a person, “only a body of believers with a name”, only Protestantism lay claim to this definition never Catholics.

To come away with a conclusion “that is what you believe” and “this is what I believe” denies Jesus Christ and has not truth, for there is only one “Truth” Truth cannot be divided.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Of course that is what you believe. Now I do not, but that is not relevant to this thread.

In case what you have missed what I am saying…even if you are 100% correct in what you believe and I am 100% wrong (presumably I would find that out in purgatory), the definition of denomination in the dictionary and what you and everybody else here is trying to get through my thick head are not mutually exclusive. Thus according to the dictionary (2 of 'em) you are a denomination.

Sheesh, this is like pulling teeth. Just admit "Yes we are a denomination according to the English language according to the dictionary which defines the meaning of words in the English language…we are also ".

here is one problem with your current philosophy… The Church existed before the English language.

English dictionaries are have a bias against the Church. Dictionaries are produced by companies that desire to sell books. In the English language, a larger number of books can be sold to non-catholic christians. So the definition is slanted toward the non-catholic point of view. The fault is not yours, that lies within the community which you are a part of.

Are you protestant??

Then you are protesting the Catholic Church, Christ’s Church.
Anything outside of the Catholic Church which claims to be christian has received their traditions from the Catholic Church, and is a denomination of the Catholic Church while being outside the Church.

You may not like hearing that, we could all sugar coat the truth for you to make it easier to swallow but in the end wouldn’t you rather hear the Truth?

 

[With_Questions]

I was born again at baptism - as prescribed in Scripture (Ezekiel 36:25, John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21)

**You still **haven’t shown me how the Catholic Church is a denomination. All of the Christian denominations were rebellious offshoots of the Catholic Church.

In the simplest of terms, think of them as spinoffs of a TV series. The original TV series is not the spinoff. Does that help?

Take a look at the dictionary definitions of denomination please.

Now even if you are correct and everything else is a “rebellious spinoff” (which I of course disagree with but it is not relevant), there is nothing in the dictionary definitions of denomination that are mutually exclusive from the original also being a denomination.

Consider the Methodists. At some point there was one Methodist denomination. Now there are several. However, all of these denominations , including the original can be classified as Methodist denominations.

Hope that helps.