The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Michael_David]

Yes He did, they were written on the Scrolls, such as the one’s He used while in the temple telling them that THIS DAY that this was fulfilled!
I’m still ALL right, because if you go back and re-read what I said, I said “compiled”.

Forgive me. Yes, there was no Bible then, as now… only the Scrolls. And add to that, the Dead Sea Scrolls recently found.

 

[With_Questions]

Apparently we are never going to agree, no matter how many times you wish to tell us that we are a denomination, we know we are the true CHURCH and will continue to speak that way no matter how many times you wish to tell us otherwise. As has been stated, we even pre-date the dictionary.
If you wish to continue to call us a denomination I am sure that you will continue to be corrected so you may as well get use to it.

OK.

It is plain then that you have invented a new language by redefining words in the English language, and that you want to communicate using the language that you have created.

However, I do not want to learn your language. If you want to communicate the Catholic faith to me, I ask that you use the language that I speak, that being the English language.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Speaking of the Dead Sea scrolls.

Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference? | Catholic …Mar 7, 2007 … Indeed, the oldest copies of the Bible now known to exist are the Dead Sea scrolls of the Septuagint.

…In 1947, an Arab boy searching for a lost goat found, instead, the Dead Sea scrolls, hidden in a hillside cave.

… where, well-preserved, they remained for many centuries. Later, other caves in the same area yielded similar finds with hundreds of manuscripts no longer hidden. Indeed, the **oldest copies of the Bible now known to exist are the Dead Sea scrolls of the Septuagint. *****<~aka what Protestants call the ‘Apocrypha’] ***<~This bolded is mine

Because of this** authentic find from antiquity**,** many publishers in the twentieth century added back** the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Maccabees, as well as additions to Esther and Daniel. So now, when an edition of the Bible says “with Apocrypha” on the cover…



It took an archeological find to proove what the Church knew all along…
That the Septuagent was always part of inspired scriptures.

 

[allhers]

Forgive me. Yes, there was no Bible then, as now… only the Scrolls. And add to that, the Dead Sea Scrolls recently found.

Another topic altogether, but those only prove what the Church has been saying all along.

 

[Michael_David]

Another topic altogether, but those only prove what the Church has been saying all along.

Agree fully!

 

[Thing]

Just one observation.

The dictionary definition of denomination does not preclude the possibility that some denominations are superior than others.

Of course to me having a superiority complex with respect to my denomination versus all others is the height of arrogance and is what I despise about denominationalism. But that is me and is not really a part of this thread.

Again, I did not start My Church. It is not mine, it is His.
I have not started my own Church and then boast about its superiority over His Church or other communities.
The only significance of the Catholic Church over all other christian alternative communities is that it was established by Christ Himself. That is its significance, because on that One Church alone did He bestow His promise to guide and protect it until the end of time.
There could be no superior Church in history than the Church God Himeslf established and stamped with His seal of protection.

 

[With_Questions]

Again, I did not start My Church. It is not mine, it is His.
I have not started my own Church and then boast about its superiority over His Church or other communities.
The only significance of the Catholic Church over all other christian alternative communities is that it was established by Christ Himself. That is its significance, because on that One Church alone did He bestow His promise to guide and protect it until the end of time.
There could be no superior Church in history than the Church God Himeslf established and stamped with His seal of protection.

Again the dictionnary definition of “denomination” and what you are saying here (even though I don’t buy into it) are not mutually exclusive.

But seeing whereas you all apparantly have decided to invent a new language instead of using English to communicate to me with, I suppose it doesn’t matter.

 

[Thing]

Again the dictionnary definition of “denomination” and what you are saying here (even though I don’t buy into it) are not mutually exclusive.

But seeing whereas you all apparantly have decided to invent a new language instead of using English to communicate to me with, I suppose it doesn’t matter.

The dictionary I most often use tells me the descriptive you use is incompatable with the reality of the Church.

Oxford English Dictionary (from the guys and gals who invented English)

denomination:

• noun 1 a recognized branch of a church or religion. 2 the face value of a banknote, coin, postage stamp, etc. 3 formal a name or designation.

As I keep saying, a unique Thing cannot be a branch of equal Things. It is a contradiction.
Christ established One Church. It is and was a unique Thing in history.

 

[With_Questions]

The dictionary I most often use tells me the descriptive you use is incompatable with the reality of the Church.

Oxford English Dictionary (from the guys and gals who invented English)

denomination:

• noun 1 a recognized branch of a church or religion. 2 the face value of a banknote, coin, postage stamp, etc. 3 formal a name or designation.

As I keep saying, a unique Thing cannot be a branch of equal Things. It is a contradiction.
Christ established One Church. It is and was a unique Thing in history.

Your definition says a recognized branch of a church or a religion.

OK.

Even given your theology (I disagree with) this definition is not mutually exclusive.

Notice that the definition has the conjunction OR in it.

For this definition to be valid, only one of the two conditions need be true.

So consider the Christian religion.

The Christian religion is divided into Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Restorationalist.

All four of these can be broken down more.

So yes, the Roman Catholic church is a denomination of the religion Christianity.

Unless you want to say the rest are not Christian.

 

[alanjeddy]

The dictionary I most often use tells me the descriptive you use is incompatable with the reality of the Church.

Oxford English Dictionary (from the guys and gals who invented English)

denomination:

• noun 1 a recognized branch of a church or religion. 2 the face value of a banknote, coin, postage stamp, etc. 3 formal a name or designation.

As I keep saying, a unique Thing cannot be a branch of equal Things. It is a contradiction.
Christ established One Church. It is and was a unique Thing in history.

You are absolutely correct! " You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the powers of death shall not prevail upon it
One holy Catholic and apostolic church. None of the 33,000 splintered Protestants can lay claim to Jesus giving the keys to Peter. They simply weren’t around till the 16th century

The mormons, for example, believe that Christ’s church ended with the death of the last original apostle. Then the church fell into apostasy. WRONG-WRONG-WRONG.

The reality is that Jesus knew His church would have to last throughout salvation history therefore through the primacy of Peter then reaching into the future through apostolic succession He would accomplish continuity of the One Holy and Apostolic Church. The Holy Catholic church.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Since I am getting tired of quoting the dictionary every time this statement is made:

So unless you want to say that either your are not a religious organization or that you are not united, then you are a denomination. And if you want to claim that either the above are not true, then Protestants do not have denominations either.

So don’t argue with us any more. Take your dispute to the dictionary.

You used the wrong definition. Try definition 4, "a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)

Look at the matter less in terms of religious denomination and look at it in terms of currency denomination. You’ve got one-dollar bills and five-dollar bills and twenty-dollar bills, etc. These bills are called denominations. But these bills are only paper. They have no intrinsic value. We recognize them as valuable only because behind these flimsy pieces of paper is a vault somewhere full of something that is actually valuable. It used to be gold.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the gold standard that has real intrinsic value The value of Protestant denominations stems from this gold standard. For example, Protestant denominations believe in the Bible, because the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. Protestant denominations believe in the Trinity, because the Catholic Church defined the Trinity. Need I go on?

So to reiterate, no the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

 

[With_Questions]

You used the wrong definition. Try definition 4, "a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)

Look at the matter less in terms of religious denomination and look at it in terms of currency denomination. You’ve got one-dollar bills and five-dollar bills and twenty-dollar bills, etc. These bills are called denominations. But these bills are only paper. They have no intrinsic value. We recognize them as valuable only because behind these flimsy pieces of paper is a vault somewhere full of something that is actually valuable. It used to be gold.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the gold standard that has real intrinsic value The value of Protestant denominations stems from this gold standard. For example, Protestant denominations believe in the Bible, because the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. Protestant denominations believe in the Trinity, because the Catholic Church defined the Trinity. Need I go on?

So to reiterate, no the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

In a dictionary with four definitions, any of the four are valid definitions. Not all four definitions have to match.

 

[With_Questions]

As I keep saying, a unique Thing cannot be a branch of equal Things. It is a contradiction.
Christ established One Church. It is and was a unique Thing in history.

One more thing (my time expired on my previous post).

Your very own pope refererred to the Orthodox as “churches”. This is confirmed by your catechism. There are three references to Orthodox in your catechism. All three are followed by the noun “church”.

So even in your own belief system (which I disagree with), the noun “church” is not unique to the adjective “catholic”. Therefore this definition of denomination applies on both halves of the OR condition, even though it is sufficient that it apply for only one half.

So we have two dictionaries where your belief system and the word denomination are not mutually exclusive.

Unless you want to redefine English to a new language.

 

[allhers]

paraphrased:

“We didnt build our Church on the word of God”

How condemning

Jesus founded the Church, not us, and we will not be moved by your misuse of my wording. The WORD of GOD is JESUS, He became flesh and dwelt among us. He founded a Church, not a Bible.

The Church He founded eventually compiled and wrote down HIS Teachings.

 

[Thing]

Your definition says a recognized branch of a church or a religion.

OK.

Even given your theology (I disagree with) this definition is not mutually exclusive.

Notice that the definition has the conjunction OR in it.

For this definition to be valid, only one of the two conditions need be true.

So consider the Christian religion.

The Christian religion is divided into Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Restorationalist.

All four of these can be broken down more.

So yes, the Roman Catholic church is a denomination of the religion Christianity.

Unless you want to say the rest are not Christian.

Lets see what your Mirriam-Webster dictionary has to say about denominations with regard to the religion, Christianity;

Denomination:
4: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.

The painfully obvious fact is that protestantism rejects some or all of Catholic beliefs and practices - so Catholicism is not a denomination within Christianity.

 

[With_Questions]

Lets see what your Mirriam-Webster dictionary has to say about denominations with regard to the religion, Christianity;

Denomination:
4: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.

The painfully obvious fact is that protestantism rejects some or all of Catholic beliefs and practices - so Catholicism is not a denomination within Christianity.

Are you saying that Protestants are not Christian? Now you would be disagreeing with your own popes if that is what you believe, but I have read Catholic web sites that assert this (and thereby disagree with their popes).

If Protestants are not Christian then what you are saying is true.

Otherwise, what you are saying is nonsense.

Actually looking at the two definitions I sort of prefer yours in the Oxford dictionary. Otherwise you could have a single religion be a denomination of itself, and I don’t think the word is commonly used that way.

 

[Thing]

One more thing (my time expired on my previous post).

Your very own pope refererred to the Orthodox as “churches”. This is confirmed by your catechism. There are three references to Orthodox in your catechism. All three are followed by the noun “church”.

So even in your own belief system (which I disagree with), the noun “church” is not unique to the adjective “catholic”. Therefore this definition of denomination applies on both halves of the OR condition, even though it is sufficient that it apply for only one half.

So we have two dictionaries where your belief system and the word denomination are not mutually exclusive.

Unless you want to redefine English to a new language.

The orthodox are in schism not heresy.They are separated from the Church by a ‘rebelion against the Bishop’ and not by denying or destroying any Dogma. “By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe”
Protestantism has embraced heresies and so their communities are not refered to as churches.

 

[With_Questions]

The orthodox are in schism not heresy.They are separated from the Church by a ‘rebelion against the Bishop’ and not by denying or destroying any Dogma. “By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe”
Protestantism has embraced heresies and so their communities are not refered to as churches.

So…contrary to your previous post, even within Catholicism, the noun church is not unique within the adjective Catholic.

Therefore according to the definition you supplied, both branches of the OR condition are true.

Even though only one need be true in order for the statement to be true.

So according to the definition you supplied, the Roman Catholic Church is a branch of both 'religion" and “church” and therefore is a denomination.

 

[Thing]

…

Actually looking at the two definitions I sort of prefer yours in the Oxford dictionary. Otherwise you could have a single religion be a denomination of itself, and I don’t think the word is commonly used that way.

Exactly, Christianity is a religion. And by your dictionary it is at once a denomination and not a denomination, or else it condemns a whole sub-group to wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness.
So we move to the more exacting language of the Oxford, where a denomination is a branch, and to the difficult reality that a unique Thing is, in fact, unique and has no twin or equal or branch.

 

[With_Questions]

Exactly, Christianity is a religion. And by your dictionary it is at once a denomination and not a denomination, or else it condemns a whole sub-group to wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness.
So we move to the more exacting language of the Oxford, where a denomination is a branch, and to the difficult reality that a unique Thing is, in fact, unique and has no twin or equal or branch.

The only way that the Roman Catholic church is not a branch of the religion Christianity would be if all of the other supposed branches are not Christian. Then Catholic would be unique to Christian.

To make the argument you are making, I must assume you believe this. Otherwise you are spouting forth nonsense.

Now if you do believe this, you are choosing to disbelieve the teaching of your own church that believes any validly baptized person is Christian. But that is another issue.