The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Hisalone]

The terms defined are very important.
Faith means something different for protestants and catholics.
Its not the words that devide us it is the accepted meaning of those words.

 

[With_Questions]

Well, if you were talking to me you could say, “Your Church, not, your denomination”. I say this since you said earlier that you couldn’t think of another way to put it. Since we Catholics call it Church, you could respect that and address us this way.

Well there is a sense in which denomination and church are synonyms:

3often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: denomination c: congregation

The problem here is that Catholicism again disagrees with the dictionary because they do not acknowledge the Presbyterian as a church.

Now theologically to us, church has the meaning of 3a: but according to the dictionary 3b is not invalid. So I wouldn’t “correct” you when you use it in that sense.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Since I am getting tired of quoting the dictionary every time this statement is made:

So unless you want to say that either your are not a religious organization or that you are not united, then you are a denomination. And if you want to claim that either the above are not true, then Protestants do not have denominations either.

So don’t argue with us any more. Take your dispute to the dictionary.

well the Church was here long B4 the dictionary Sorry the Church that Our Lord started is not a denomination the word was not used until about 1500 ad SORRY

 

[chris_molter]

A dictionary presents words using their common-use definitions. When Catholics disagree over the use of the words “Church” or “denomination” it’s because these words have a finer theological or ecclesiological definition that is not commonly used by laymen (and by that I mean laymen as in “laymen’s terms” not laity! )

I think we can all agree that by the layman’s/dictionary definition Catholicism is a denomination and the PCA is a Church.

However, in the proper sense, neither is true…

 

[Thing]

Was Catholicism a denomination before protestantism existed?

 

[CWBetts]

I think this debate occurs only as a way for members of the upstart sects to attack the Church founded by Christ. Denomination or not, it is an irrelevant argument used to derail discussions away from the original intent. How is this for a solution: We will accept being called a denomination if they will accept that Protestantism has no direct link to Christ.

 

[With_Questions]

well the Church was here long B4 the dictionary Sorry the Church that Our Lord started is not a denomination the word was not used until about 1500 ad SORRY

So you disagree with the dictionary also.

 

[Graubo3]

I care for one.

I care because I for one use the word “denomination” frequently in threads referring to the (Roman) Catholic church. And I get (or see others get) “corrected” a lot when I use this word.

I do not use it in a derogatory sense. I only use it in the sense of the definition of the original post. I quite honestly know of no other word that I can use that has the same meaning.

And I am honestly getting quite tired of seeing myself or some other poster get “corrected” when we use the word denomination in the sense of the original post.

So if nobody cares about this, then please stop “correcting” us when we use the word in this sense. Then I won’t care either.

Withquestions,

I know that you do not use it in a derogatory manner.

Put yourself in some Catholic’s shoes: if you believe in what the Catholic Church teaches about her origins (explained on various threads that you have been to) then it can be perceived as being derogatory. It is good to use a dictionary but sometimes the religious definitions might be slightly skewed. I believe there is substantial evidence that Noah Webster was pretty anti-Catholic. Do you think that influenced him at all? I believe his synonym for ‘Jesuits’ was ‘Deceitful’. There are places in academia, not just Catholic, that will correct you on the usage of this term. I was corrected by a Protestant religion professor from the mathematical argument that “how can 1 be separate from itself?”. Now I know that you are Bible believing, where is the term “denomination” in Sacred Scripture? That is not intended as derogatory. Have a good weekend!

Peace, Graubo

 

[CWBetts]

So you disagree with the dictionary also.

Just to clear something else up: the dictionary is NOT a source of Divine Revelation.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well there is a sense in which denomination and church are synonyms:

The problem here is that Catholicism again disagrees with the dictionary because they do not acknowledge the Presbyterian as a church.

Now theologically to us, church has the meaning of 3a: but according to the dictionary 3b is not invalid. So I wouldn’t “correct” you when you use it in that sense.

look up the word cult and see what it has to say all churchs are a cult and thats not what i think

 

[With_Questions]

A dictionary presents words using their common-use definitions. When Catholics disagree over the use of the words “Church” or “denomination” it’s because these words have a finer theological or ecclesiological definition that is not commonly used by laymen (and by that I mean laymen as in “laymen’s terms” not laity! )

I think we can all agree that by the layman’s/dictionary definition Catholicism is a denomination and the PCA is a Church.

However, in the proper sense, neither is true…

I understand that in Catholic theology Catholicism is not a denomination and the PCA is not a church.

Now in our theology, neither is a church and both are denominations.

And according to the dictionnary, both are churches and both are denominations.

What I object to is being corrected when I use a word that is (a) consistent with the dictionary and (b) consistent with our theology.

Now I know that what you are saying is that “The Catholic church is not a denomination according to our theology”. But that is different than saying that it is invalid to use the word denomination with respect to the (Roman) Catholic church.

 

[Thing]

Well, I asked the guys and gals who invented English (who better to ask) what they thought the definition of the word ‘denomination’ was. Heres what they had to say:

n. name (particularly of a class of things); kind, class; religious sect

denomination
noun
a Christian denomination: RELIGIOUS GROUP, sect, cult, movement, body, branch, persuasion, order, school; Church

As you can see the word denomination includes in its definition ‘a branch’ or a class among classes. This word, ‘denomination’, is a deficient description for the Church, as, before protestantism existed there was only one Church. This One Church was not a branch or class of something else, related.
You must find a descriptive word for Catholicism which does not include that quality of being a branch or class.
Within Catholicism itself there are denominations, or orders, those are branches of Catholicism, but Catholicism itself is not a branch of something else, as there was only Catholicism alone for the first three-quarters of the Churches 2000 year old history.

 

[With_Questions]

Was Catholicism a denomination before protestantism existed?

Well yes because you had at least two religious organizations whose congregations were united in beliefs and practices.

And before Orthodoxy I think you had the coptic churches in Africa that were not a part of Catholicism.

I find it interesting that according to the dictionary that the word denomination seems to be valid even for the apostolic church, except it sort of seems redundant.

Oh, some posts here are blatantly condescending. So I am going to be reinstituting my policy of just not responding to condescension.

 

[chris_molter]

What I object to is being corrected when I use a word that is (a) consistent with the dictionary and (b) consistent with our theology.

Now I know that what you are saying is that “The Catholic church is not a denomination according to our theology”. But that is different than saying that it is invalid to use the word denomination with respect to the (Roman) Catholic church.

I see your point and of course, it can be valid to call the Catholic Church a denomination using the dictionary definition. However, since this is a Catholic forum, generally dedicated to apologetics, theological discussion etc. it’s probably futile to expect that doing so won’t result in some sort of objection.

I’ve learned through many ecumenical discussions that agreeing on terminology is of such vital importance that it’s practically impossible to try to talk to each other without constantly defining terms!

 

[Thing]

Both Orthodox and Coptic were Catholic in that they were both subject to the Roman Pope, until at least the Orthodox later decided to go its own way.
The orthodox is not a denomination of the Catholic Church. The Coptic Church is one of 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the See of Peter, the Holy See, that make up the universal Catholic Church.

 

[With_Questions]

Withquestions,

I know that you do not use it in a derogatory manner.

Put yourself in some Catholic’s shoes: if you believe in what the Catholic Church teaches about her origins (explained on various threads that you have been to) then it can be perceived as being derogatory. It is good to use a dictionary but sometimes the religious definitions might be slightly skewed. I believe there is substantial evidence that Noah Webster was pretty anti-Catholic. Do you think that influenced him at all? I believe his synonym for ‘Jesuits’ was ‘Deceitful’. There are places in academia, not just Catholic, that will correct you on the usage of this term. I was corrected by a Protestant religion professor from the mathematical argument that “how can 1 be separate from itself?”. Now I know that you are Bible believing, where is the term “denomination” in Sacred Scripture? That is not intended as derogatory. Have a good weekend!

Peace, Graubo

My source btw is Miriams online dictionary. I think the dictionary has been updated since the time of Noah Webster.

I realize that the word denomination is not in Scripture. At the time of Scripture you did not have multiple Christian religious organizations.

 

[With_Questions]

Both Orthodox and Coptic were Catholic in that they were both subject to the Roman Pope, until at least the Orthodox later decided to go its own way.
The orthodox is not a denomination of the Catholic Church. The Coptic Church is one of 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the See of Peter, the Holy See, that make up the universal Catholic Church.

According to this article, the Coptic church (and the Oriental Orthodox church) dates from AD 451.

 

[With_Questions]

I see your point and of course, it can be valid to call the Catholic Church a denomination using the dictionary definition. However, since this is a Catholic forum, generally dedicated to apologetics, theological discussion etc. it’s probably futile to expect that doing so won’t result in some sort of objection.

I’ve learned through many ecumenical discussions that agreeing on terminology is of such vital importance that it’s practically impossible to try to talk to each other without constantly defining terms!

Fair enough.

But I honestly don’t know of another word that expresses the same meaning as the dictionary definition of “denomination” that I can use and theologically agree with.

 

[With_Questions]

Well, I asked the guys and gals who invented English (who better to ask) what they thought the definition of the word ‘denomination’ was. Heres what they had to say:

Since the English language has been around much longer than any of us, I highly doubt whether you asked the guys and gals who invented English.

 

[Graubo3]

I’ve learned through many ecumenical discussions that agreeing on terminology is of such vital importance that it’s practically impossible to try to talk to each other without constantly defining terms!

I agree chris. I have found a few times that we may be using different terminology but we mean the same thing. I do have some difficulty with those that want to redefine terms for their own agenda and ignore the etymology. And that is not directed at you WithQuestions.

Peace, Graubo