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CWBetts
Guest
I think the real question is why WQ has a seething hatred for the Body of Christ
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
C.W.:
No, I don’t think that is the question. Seething hatred does not need a reason, and having a seething hatred for the Body of Christ whether in the Real Presence or in the Person of His Church is the norm rather than the exception these days.
Marsha
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mark_a
Guest
. . . . . so what’s the big deal?
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With_Questions
Guest
The only deal as far as I am concerned is…
That I was getting “corrected” and seeing others get “corrected” when we use the word “denomination” in connection with your church.
And I was getting very tired of being “corrected”, particularly when I could turn to the dictionary and find my usage totally justified.
Thus I started this thread.
Which I sort of regret. I have been accused of having a “seething hatred” (by somebody on my ignore list…unfortunately his words were quoted) when I know in my heart I have no such thing. Sheesh.
If I have such a “seething hatred” please report any offending post of mine to the moderators. Then they will ban me and you all will be rid of me for good.
I should have remembered my vow that I made to myself a while back never to start threads here, you will live to regret it. Which I do.
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elvisman
Guest
And you obviously haven’t read what I’ve been saying about the Early Church. Either a congregation or diocese was part of the Church and loyal to the Pope or it wasn’t part of the Catholic Church - period.Did any other apostle go to India. I would be very curious to learn this?
Whether Thomas appointed successors or not is not my point. My only point is that this church was not plugged into the Roman hierarchy. It was never under the Bishop of Rome as it were. It seemed to function quite well as its own jurisdiction.
However I am still learning about this. And so I will not discuss it further unless somebody provides me new information for my enjoyment.
You obviously haven’t read what I have been saying about the Oriental Orthodox who split in the 400s. :
Your fantasies about the church not dividing until the Great Schism in the 11th century are just that - fantasies.
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distracted
Guest
umm… hello. we Catholics don’t take our definitions from the dictionary…
that being said, even if a person wanted to call the Catholic Church a denomination (words are just words)… so what?
It is still the one Church Christ established on Earth… the only one (Christian) that’s been around since Jesus Christ himself…
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With_Questions
Guest
And if is ok for any disciple, be it music, computer science, or religion, to adopt is own technical jargon and have special meanings for these words within the confines of that discipline.
Us computer geeks have a special meaning for the word trigger that is not in the dictionary, that you all don’t know about (unless you work with this stuff), and really don’t need to know about.
What is not ok is for this special meaning within the confines of the disciple to negate the normal English language definition of the word. When this happens, you are inventing your own language.
A trigger, apart from the special meaning us computer geeks assign to it, is still the part of the gun that when pressed makes it go “BANG”.
So if you want to have a special meaning for the word “denomination” within the scope of Catholicism, fine by me.
But just don’t go correcting us nonCatholics when we use the word according to the standard English meaning.
Exactly. Particularly when the usage of the word matches the English language.
Fine.
Without (please) debating this statement, it can logically be both “the one Church Christ established on Earth” and a “denomination according to the English dictionary”. And whether it is actually “the one Church Christ established on Earth” is a separate issue.
Now honestly, does this post sound like something somebody who has a “seething hatred for the Body of Christ” would put up there.
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CWBetts
Guest
Any who denies the doctrines of The Catholic Church, the Church founded by CHrist himself, is not showing love for Christ. If you truly loved Christ you would love his Church, and not ally yourself with a rebellious sect founded by heretics.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
that should be in the dictionary…
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Hajnalcsillag
Guest
And if you had love for your fellow man you wouldn’t post such things that serve no purpose except inciting ill will.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
With questions; Can your english definition of the word denomination disprove that the Catholic church is not the body of Jesus Christ?
St. Pauls theology from scripture about the Church being the body of Jesus Christ will overrule your definition of denomination every time when you keep trying to attach it to the Catholic church; it does not fit nor will it ever apply to the Catholic church.
It is not Catholics who you think is being stubborn? it is the “Rock” of Jesus Christ which he built that cannot be moved or changed by no man nor any one word in a dictionary, in other words your english definition of “denomination” conflicts with sacred Scripture.
As far as the Eastern Catholic church they are one body, one faith, one Lord with the Latin Rite (Western Catholic church) for neither is divided in the sacramental body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. “Where the Bishop is there is the Catholic church”. The slight Eastern schism from the West of Papal authority, confirms who left who for this reason “Papal authority” divinely given by Jesus himself. This “pride of men” does not seperate us from God but deals with the obedience to God.
You see what you dont understand about 2000 years of Christianity and Sacred Scripture, for the first 1500 years there was only the Catholic church, no denomination of her never existed. Not to mention that the first 1500 years of Christians were all Catholic and believed in the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic church as we still believe today unchanged.
What is changed is your new rendition of an english term “denomination” to try and attach it to the Catholic church which you cannot do, for reasons I explained that She the Catholic church is a living person, and a living person does not fit into your definition of a “denomination” no matter which meaning you choose to entertain.
I will enlighten you with this, The Catholic church has body members in heaven living more alive than we today, your definition of denomination does not even come close to describe who she is in the least definition, because your english “denomination” only equates to a body(congregation) of believers with a particular name. This in no way defines who or what the Catholic church is, she is the body of Jesus Christ living both in time and eteranally. Again the Catholic church will never be a “denomination” in the english rendering you give it.
St. Pauls theology from scripture about the Church being the body of Jesus Christ will overrule your definition of denomination every time when you keep trying to attach it to the Catholic church; it does not fit nor will it ever apply to the Catholic church.
It is not Catholics who you think is being stubborn? it is the “Rock” of Jesus Christ which he built that cannot be moved or changed by no man nor any one word in a dictionary, in other words your english definition of “denomination” conflicts with sacred Scripture.
As far as the Eastern Catholic church they are one body, one faith, one Lord with the Latin Rite (Western Catholic church) for neither is divided in the sacramental body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. “Where the Bishop is there is the Catholic church”. The slight Eastern schism from the West of Papal authority, confirms who left who for this reason “Papal authority” divinely given by Jesus himself. This “pride of men” does not seperate us from God but deals with the obedience to God.
You see what you dont understand about 2000 years of Christianity and Sacred Scripture, for the first 1500 years there was only the Catholic church, no denomination of her never existed. Not to mention that the first 1500 years of Christians were all Catholic and believed in the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic church as we still believe today unchanged.
What is changed is your new rendition of an english term “denomination” to try and attach it to the Catholic church which you cannot do, for reasons I explained that She the Catholic church is a living person, and a living person does not fit into your definition of a “denomination” no matter which meaning you choose to entertain.
I will enlighten you with this, The Catholic church has body members in heaven living more alive than we today, your definition of denomination does not even come close to describe who she is in the least definition, because your english “denomination” only equates to a body(congregation) of believers with a particular name. This in no way defines who or what the Catholic church is, she is the body of Jesus Christ living both in time and eteranally. Again the Catholic church will never be a “denomination” in the english rendering you give it.
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With_Questions
Guest
OK, let me say this again real slowly.
The word “denomination” is a classification word in the English language. The word “denomination” does not sufficiently define any object that might be classified as one.
So any object that is classified as a “denomination” may have many more attributes that can uniquely define this object.
However, these additional attributes do not negate the fact that this object still has the characteristics of a denomination as defined by the English language dictionary.
So, for all I know the Catholic church may have all of the characteristics that you describe that uniquely define the Catholic church. For the sake of this discussion, I will assume that it does.
If it does, that is very nice.
However, that is really not the issue. The only issue is whether the Catholic church possesses the attributes that allow it to be classified as a denomination of the English language.
I am using this definition of denominations
Note the “or” here. The condition is true if it is a branch of either.
To be thorough, I am using this definition of branch
And to be thorough, this definition of religion
So this definition is true if Catholicism is a recognized division of the religion Christianity.
Now your faith recognizes validly baptized Orthodox and Protestants as Christians. Thus not all Christians are Catholic.
Therefore even by your faith Catholicism is a recognized division of Christianity, even if it is the “one true church” and all that.
Therefore it is a denomination.
Again, I don’t get the big deal. The Catholic church might just be for all I know everything you claim it is. And you may have a technical definition of the word denomination in addition to the English language definition. That does not negate the fact that per the English dictionary the Catholic church is a denomination.
This is my piece today.
I am not going to end up repeating myself a gazillion times.
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ForMary
Guest
Am I to understand that it is your contention that the dictionary is divinely inspired or written by God? If not, then by whose authority is this definition made…the publisher, perhaps?
Additionally, the definition you site is narrow and incomplete. I invite you to take another look at several dictionaries, all of their definitions for the word (denomination might refer to the value of a note of currency, for example, though the body of which I am a part has no monetary value) and then try to understand the argument you are trying; though unable, to make.
The Catholic Church is not a denomination in my personal lexicon; it is the one true church. Is it perfect, maybe not, but that is the fault of humans not the fault of the creator or His Son who founded it.
Furthermore, I am and we are the Church, the body of Christ is the Church. The community of the faithful is the Church.
Now, relax and take a breath. Does it really matter if we agree on a word and its associated definition (conotation and denotation)?
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With_Questions
Guest
Fine then.
As I said, it is perfectly allowable for a discipline to have technical definitions of a word in addition to those found in the dictionary. I have already cited the word “trigger” has a special meaning within the discipline of database administration.
So it is fine for you to use the word denomination according to the definition of the discipline Catholicism if you so choose.
What is not ok is for this definition to negate the standard dictionary definition of the word English.
What this means in real life is that I am sick and tired of being corrected and seeing others be corrected when we use the word denomination in respect to your church when I can look in the English dictionary and find that the use of this word is perfectly legitimate.
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Thing
Guest
Ha ha ha … great, that means I get the last word.
The definition of the word denomination in the dictionary is;
…a recognized branch of a church or a religion
In other words the definition of a denomination is of one object from a grouping of several objects.
In other words one object not of a group is not a denomination.
Christ founded One Church, ‘I will build My Church’ and one Religion, - the beliefs and practices of that Christs Church.
Therefore the Church from the very beginning was not a denomination according to your dictionary. And fortunately or unfortunately for your argument Christ also gave another promise, that this Church He had just established Would never fail, not even the gates of hades could prevail against it.
Therefore, that very same Church He founded continues to exist to this very day as *‘The *Church’, a singular entity which cannot also be a denomination according to the standard understanding of the dictionary definition of ‘denomination’, - (as if we care anyway). But now you know. Ciao.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Here is an idea…
Now that you understand that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. Don’t refer to the Catholic Church as a denomination and we won’t have to correct you.
The Catholic Church isn’t just a recognized religion or church. It is the one true Church. Big difference!
Even your dictionary makes reference to the Apostolic Church when the definition of the Catholic Church is read. Guess what it says for the denominational churches? That is right it says a “protestant denomination” for the Methodist Church for example. Maybe in your language the bible works differently, in the English language you have come to a “bump”. You can look it up!
You belong to a recognized religion or church, a denomination Catholics belong to the one true Church. Your church is a denomination of Catholic Church, separated but still part of it therefore a denomination of the one True Church.
But you can’t see any of this, I made to much sense, destroyed your argument, point out arrogance and now you ignore my posts.
What denomination do you belong to? I’ll be happy to look it up and I’ll bet it has the word denomination in it.
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ForMary
Guest
Personally, I would not correct you if you used the word denomination with regard to Catholicism, nor would I seek to build a discussion around it in a conversation we might have, even though I would not agree. It’s just not a big enough battle for me to pick to fight in.
I simply responded in a thread.
However, I would like to offer that the words I bolded and underlined in the above quote are a misnomer, in my opinion. It is not my church or his church or her church, it is OUR church and we are the Church. That is the important thing.
Many will not agree. Many will not acknowledge, but if you are a follower of the way (what many/most call Christian) then you are Catholic, even if you do not identify with the Catholic Church or trained in or abide by her teachings.
…aye…now there’s the rub!
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
With Question:
Get used to it, you can shake the dictionary in our faces until the binding falls off and the pages flutter into the stratosphere, but we Catholics will continue to correct you every time you refer to the One True Church the Body of Christ as a denomination, or a branch or a division or as any term other than THE Church. So just live with it.
However, in an attempt to be compassionate and understanding to your deep affection for the term denomination, when we refer to your religion or any Protestant religion, we will be careful to refer to it as a denomination. In fact, I personally promise that I will refer to your sect in no other way.
Oh, one more thought, you keep referring to the difference between the English language and the Catholic language and voicing your refusal to learn to speak Catholic. That is all right, but if you truly wanted to dialog with someone, wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to speak their language?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Your not repeating yourself, thus far, I have read your comment to entertain 3 seperate meanings of the word “denomination”. So I will address your last one “or” a “religion”.
If your going to refer to the Catholic church from a secular term “Religion” would be the better term than a false pretense of the secular word “denomination”, so your dilema is solved; never refer to the Catholic church as “denomination” if you want a secular term to reference the Catholic church use “Religion”.
Just as you have stated in your comment. But I disagree “denomination” does not define a religion either, but only to generically identify a "body (community) of believers with a particular name from a religion not “or a religion”.
Now, you mention the valid baptized outside the Catholic church. Yes these have entered into the kingdom of God in the body of Jesus Christ. Because these outside the Catholic church does not make the Catholic church a “denomination”, but makes them a denomination of the Catholic church.
Mother Church recognizes these children and remains with outstretched arms awaiting their return home, because they are her “prodigal” sons and daughters, we are consistantly praying for our seperated bretheren to come home.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
St. Paul said the same thing. Maybe WQ just thinks that St. Paul is wrong for writing such nonsense in scripture.
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