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Marie5890
Guest
Here is the link to the page that the above poster was referencing…7th paragraph down
newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm
I agree…It’s said under one topic but not the other…No further explanation is said…Odd
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newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm
I agree…It’s said under one topic but not the other…No further explanation is said…Odd
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AnneElliot
Guest
I saw that when I looked it up after he gave the fuller reference for his statement.
However, that seems to be the only place where I can find a reference to Blessed Alan de la Roche being “delusional”. So I’m naturally curious as to its real source and where it comes from. I contacted the man who runs the site, so I am hoping he can point me to the source of this idea.
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Hesychios
Guest
I guess that would be me
I don’t have any scepticism of the rosary at all!
I think my assessment of the promises was a balanced and fair critique. I frankly and honestly do not believe the Mother of God made them for a number of sound reasons.
The rosary itself, and the Hail Mary prayer in particular, is something I have prayed all my life.
Now that I am Orthodox the form of the prayer I use is as follows:
*Mother of God, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. *
As I stated, the Hail Mary (and the rosary prayer rule) is not unknown to Orthodox, myself especially.
An honest and open minded critique of the alleged promises does not constitute an attack on the rosary, nor a dismissal of it’s usefulness as a form of prayer.
You mentioned "I do find recitation of the rosary to reduce anxiety. It is also relaxing … ", which is why I mentioned the Jesus Prayer, or also known as the prayer of the heart as this will assuredly ease the mind, strengthen the soul and comfort. This prayer is well known among Eastern Catholics and is growing again in popularity among western Catholics.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, the sinner.
*“The soul’s true peace lies in the gentle name of Jesus and in its emptying itself of impassioned thoughts.”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai De tempernteia et virtute *
“The more the rain falls on the earth, the softer it makes it; similarly, Christ’s holy name gladdens the earth of our heart the more we call upon it.”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai* De tempernteia et virtute *
“The sun cannot shine without light; nor can the heart be cleansed of the stain of destructive thoughts without invoking in prayer the name of Jesus. This being the case, we should use that name as we do our own breath. For that name is light, while evil thoughts are darkness; it is God and Master, while evil thoughts are slaves and demons”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai* De tempernteia et virtute *
‘Indeed, our true task is always the same and is always accomplished in the same way: to call upon our Lord Jesus Christ with a burning heart so that His holy name intercedes for us.’ *
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai De tempernteia et virtute
*As one can plainly see I have been a big fan of the meditations of Saint Hesychios (a Catholic as well as Orthodox saint) since before I joined CAF forums six years ago.
Pax et Bonum,
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Hesychios
Guest
I guess that would be me
I don’t have any scepticism of the rosary at all!
I think my assessment of the promises was a balanced and fair. I frankly and honestly do not believe the Mother of God made them for a number of sound reasons (which I have not actually discussed in depth, and do not at this time intend to).
The rosary itself, and the Hail Mary prayer in particular, is something I have prayed all my life.
Now that I am Orthodox the form of the prayer I use is as follows:
*Mother of God, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. *
As I stated, the Hail Mary (and the rosary prayer rule) is not unknown to Orthodox, myself especially.
An honest and open minded critique of the alleged promises does not constitute an attack on the rosary, nor a dismissal of it’s usefulness as a form of prayer.
You mentioned "I do find recitation of the rosary to reduce anxiety. It is also relaxing … ", which is why I mentioned the Jesus Prayer, or also known as the prayer of the heart as this will assuredly ease the mind, strengthen the soul and comfort. This prayer is well known among Eastern Catholics and is growing again in popularity among western Catholics.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, the sinner.
*“The soul’s true peace lies in the gentle name of Jesus and in its emptying itself of impassioned thoughts.”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai De tempernteia et virtute *
“The more the rain falls on the earth, the softer it makes it; similarly, Christ’s holy name gladdens the earth of our heart the more we call upon it.”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai* De tempernteia et virtute *
“The sun cannot shine without light; nor can the heart be cleansed of the stain of destructive thoughts without invoking in prayer the name of Jesus. This being the case, we should use that name as we do our own breath. For that name is light, while evil thoughts are darkness; it is God and Master, while evil thoughts are slaves and demons”
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai* De tempernteia et virtute *
‘Indeed, our true task is always the same and is always accomplished in the same way: to call upon our Lord Jesus Christ with a burning heart so that His holy name intercedes for us.’ *
Saint Hesychios the Priest, Sinai De tempernteia et virtute
*As one can plainly see I have been a big fan of the meditations of Saint Hesychios (a Catholic as well as Orthodox saint) since before I joined CAF forums six years ago.
Pax et Bonum,
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roveau
Guest
I don’t think about the promises in relation to the Rosary but now looking at them I see that I have obtained many of those blessing already.
I started to recite the Rosary before I was reconciled with the Church. The priest that heard my confession, and knew of my interest and Rosary devotion said that my return to the Church was due to the intercession of Our Blessed Lady and the Rosary.
I recite the Rosary every day (5 decades, the mysteries, including the Luminous Mysteries, selected on the basis of the day of the week). I have had my prayers answered so many times, mainly about my spiritual life and work, that I can really see the hand of God working in my mundane little life.
I started to recite the Rosary before I was reconciled with the Church. The priest that heard my confession, and knew of my interest and Rosary devotion said that my return to the Church was due to the intercession of Our Blessed Lady and the Rosary.
I recite the Rosary every day (5 decades, the mysteries, including the Luminous Mysteries, selected on the basis of the day of the week). I have had my prayers answered so many times, mainly about my spiritual life and work, that I can really see the hand of God working in my mundane little life.
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AJV
Guest
A few comments
We have to take this on faith (pun intended)
I suppose this is where the idea that the saint Mary of Nazareth mediates graces comes from.
Is not your beef with the idea that she mediates *all *grace?I don’t see why. Certainly, recourse to the prayers of the saints, and more so to the Mother of God is always a powerful weapon against hell. And there are many hymns both in the East and West that speak of all the other three effects.
I suppose one can take issue with the WILL part, as if it is a foregone bargain or means of compelling without thought as to the dispositions of those who pray it.
Certainly so, but the situation is surely comparable to cases where we address or attribute something to a saint on account of their intercession with God or address invocations like “save” or “deliver” to them, is it not?
I think the promises at times are evidence of a certain mercantilism with regard to our prayers - the idea of ‘getting’ something out of a prayer. Perhaps it’s high time we should leave to the Mother of God what she wishes to obtain for her children who call on her devoutly.
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Hesychios
Guest
I am glad you brought this up.
I need some clarification and perhaps you can help!
In the context of Saint Mary of Nazareth, what does mediate grace mean? How is it done?
A second question which you might be able to help with is ‘in what sense is the term all graces used?’ Does it mean …
- a portion of every type of grace, or …
- the sum total of all graces from God?
A third question I have is ‘what is grace?’ The reason I ask is that we may not be sharing a common understanding.
Is grace God? … or is grace a created thing God gives us?
Thanks in advance!
To answer your question though, it’s not a beef. The concept of Mediatrix of all Graces had to come from somewhere, and I am guessing it started with this vision or some other speculation. No, I don’t believe it because it is not Apostolic but this thread is about the alleged promises, not a proposed new dogma.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The Rosary was established by St Dominic through a vision from the Blessed Mother and then restored by Blessed Alan de la Roche.
Grace- Is the undeserved Mercy that God gave to us by sending his Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross. To give “us” a way to be with him. For the balance of eternity.
Grace- Is the undeserved Mercy that God gave to us by sending his Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross. To give “us” a way to be with him. For the balance of eternity.
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Hesychios
Guest
Actually this is a historic (although popularly repeated) myth.
The origins of the rosary clearly predate Saint Dominic, and many Catholic websites provide a fairly balanced recounting of the development of the prayer rule.
Is it a created thing in your understanding? Something that can be given?
Thanks!
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Stephentlig
Guest
“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.”
(St. Augustine)
When Our Lady makes a promise, she makes a promise, if we like dont have faith in her promise then like St.Peter we sink like an anchor.
On my Journey home, I was sent a rosary from Medugorje in the post, I remembered how when I was a child I used to pray the Rosary, and I began to pray it again, all I could remember was ‘‘One Our Father and 10 Hail Mary’s’’ but as for the rest I hadnt a clue but, I began praying it, and when the girlfriend with whom I was living with at the times Mother came around, it was a great excuse for me to go into the bedroom and pray it.
I left Scotland, and after a while of being with the Lord in Ireland and praying the Rosary, I rediscovered my Faith and I’m now fully practicing and Married to a lovely Lady from New Jersey and we live in Ireland, penniless and jobless but nonetheless rich in poverty and abounding in heavenly treasure and love for one another.
The Journey Home always begins with Our Lady who is the teacher in the Faith and who leads us all to Jesus.
Pax Christi
Stephen <3
(St. Augustine)
When Our Lady makes a promise, she makes a promise, if we like dont have faith in her promise then like St.Peter we sink like an anchor.
On my Journey home, I was sent a rosary from Medugorje in the post, I remembered how when I was a child I used to pray the Rosary, and I began to pray it again, all I could remember was ‘‘One Our Father and 10 Hail Mary’s’’ but as for the rest I hadnt a clue but, I began praying it, and when the girlfriend with whom I was living with at the times Mother came around, it was a great excuse for me to go into the bedroom and pray it.
I left Scotland, and after a while of being with the Lord in Ireland and praying the Rosary, I rediscovered my Faith and I’m now fully practicing and Married to a lovely Lady from New Jersey and we live in Ireland, penniless and jobless but nonetheless rich in poverty and abounding in heavenly treasure and love for one another.
The Journey Home always begins with Our Lady who is the teacher in the Faith and who leads us all to Jesus.
Pax Christi
Stephen <3
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Hesychios
Guest
I wouldn’t doubt that.
“let your ‘yes’ mean yes, and your ‘no’ mean no”
The question is, who is making these alleged promises?
Medjugorje
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AJV
Guest
Ah, I see what you meanI am glad you brought this up.
I need some clarification and perhaps you can help!
In the context of Saint Mary of Nazareth, what does mediate grace mean? How is it done?
A second question which you might be able to help with is ‘in what sense is the term all graces used?’ Does it mean …
In other words ‘graces’ is a plural for ‘grace’, but I am not sure that it refers to all of the distributable bits of grace or possibly multiple categories. I never could figure this out and it would be nice to have this cleared up going forward.
- a portion of every type of grace, or …
- the sum total of all graces from God?
A third question I have is ‘what is grace?’ The reason I ask is that we may not be sharing a common understanding.
Is grace God? … or is grace a created thing God gives us?
Thanks in advance!
To answer your question though, it’s not a beef. The concept of Mediatrix of all Graces had to come from somewhere, and I am guessing it started with this vision or some other speculation. No, I don’t believe it because it is not Apostolic but this thread is about the alleged promises, not a proposed new dogma.
The whole created-grace, uncreated-grace, energies and essences thing. However, since this thread is about the rosary, I’ll leave it at that. I am not a prime person to defend the proposed dogma anyway because I have my own problems with it - although I think that the idea of Mary as *a *Mediatrix (not necessarily of all graces) is well established both East and West - mabe more in the East, since there it is addressed liturgically as well.But to address your speculation, I don’t think Mediatrix of All Graces is a product of 18th-19th century Marianism but far older from medieval times and before. And choice number 1 for liturgical texts for this feast together with St. Bernard’ sermon ‘De Aqueductu’ is/was Germanus of Constantinople’s extravagant homily on the occasion of the relics of the belt and swaddling clothes.
I did not mean any offense by the word “beef” -my apologies. I was using it to illustrate your opposition (or non-acceptance).
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Hesychios
Guest
Yes, in a sense we all potentially mediate the grace of God, like light refracting through pieces of glass.I think probably more often than not we would be totally oblivious to how God is using most of us.
Certainly the holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a type of mediation of grace, and this would be through the bishop and his priest in persona Christi standing in the flame.Mediation is a very powerful term, and I would be loathe to see it misused. Mediation of grace and intercession- advocacy are entirely separate concepts. In mediation we can only be instruments, not in any way decision makers. It is not a ‘power’ as such. It puzzles me to think what value there is in proclaiming such a thing, unless it mean something much more than I would think.
That is why I want the term clarified, and in five years I have never found anyone able or willing to do that.
As to the promises here, I think it is very arrogant a claim for a creature to promise great graces in her own name to any one. It can not be the kind of language the Holy Theotokos would use. It is one of the principle reasons (not the only one, of course) I came to see this apparition/message as false years ago (when I was a devout Catholic).
Once people sees these approved messages as probably false, the credibility of the church is seriously damaged, it a bad situation all around. And the really sad part about it is this is totally unnecessary.
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hockeyfighter21
Guest
When i became Catholic 4 years ago, I thought that Mary’s role was to point to Jesus. Of these 15 promises, Jesus name is mentioned once. These promises list a lot of “me’s” when referring to herself. The Bible, the oldest writing, lists out how to get to heaven and to be sure of salvation and it doesn’t speak of anything else assuring our salvation. I recently read a book, St Antony of the Desert, about the desert father St. Antony. He mentions the Scriptures every other sentence throughout the whole book but does not mention Mary once. Someone help me with this because I am in danger of leaving the Catholic Church.
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hockeyfighter21
Guest
This is the promise that really confuses me:
“The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.”
Where in the Church’s oldest writing, do the apostles even hint at such a thing? I thought we recommend ourselves to Jesus? When the sick were following Jesus, they cried out to Him and touched His clothing. They did not skip Jesus and go to Mary.
“The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.”
Where in the Church’s oldest writing, do the apostles even hint at such a thing? I thought we recommend ourselves to Jesus? When the sick were following Jesus, they cried out to Him and touched His clothing. They did not skip Jesus and go to Mary.
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puzzleannie
Guest
since you do not provide a source I cannot comment
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Hesychios
Guest
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hockeyfighter21
Guest
cancel my earlier posts. i need to study this out further before i comment like this. i apologize and ignore my earlier post. thanks
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thetruth0flife
Guest
Well hello there.
I see that you’re a little confused of Mary’s role. First of all i would like to mention that there has been a misconception about the specific kind of role that the Rosary has. The Rosary doesn’t assure salvation for only Jesus can assure that and it is to simply have faith in him. The role of Mary is to guide her children to Jesus. As we all know she is our mother.- 26 When Jesus saw his mother standing there beside the disciple he loved, he said to her, “Dear woman, here is your son.” 27 And he said to this disciple, “Here is your mother.”*
Also, I would like to explain the significance of that passage. She is our mother and as a mother, she can make promises. In that moment, she became the mother of all humanity and only she can make promises to humankind because I highly doubt that the mother of all humanity would be misleading her children into believing promises that aren’t true. Secondly, the Rosary isn’t a medium in which you will achieve salvation. This is the most common misconception that most people who aren’t catholics (no offense) believe. You, as a catholic must study the bible accordingly/carefully and understand that Jesus is the only one who can assure your salvation.
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
Passage John 3:16
The Rosary is a type/kind of prayer that helps catholics meditate/maintain their faith and live the whole passion/life of Christ. It is very recommended for anyone that wants to live their catholic faith to the max. I do not have any information or previous knowledge of it saying to promise to “save” anyone. Neither of the promises say that you will be saved in a direct way if you know what I mean. Also, neither of the promises mention that only the Rosary will save you if I’m correct. If anything, the Rosary is a very special type of prayer that came directly from heaven as to destroy Satan’s power/influence and help restore faith and in return recieve blessings from it.
Thirdly, what does the desert person have to do with Mary? You are comparing two diferent subjects. God bless you and hope this helps you out.
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