The Rosary and the promises of Our Lady

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ronin67 said:
Remember her and honor her we must, but not to the extent where it seems to encompass to much attention. A far as these people who said they seen visions of Mary all over the world, do you really think those visions and or apparitions were really the Holy Mother Mary? Deceptions of the devil, to draw us away from our Savior as the priority.

May God Bless!

Ed
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Mary simply guides us and draws us to the Lord and savior Jesus Christ. These ‘people’ as in normal ordinary people or the famous apparitions such as Fatima and others? I do believe that the devil can decieve us by using Mary but that is very unlikely because the devil wants to decieve us into hating Jesus and going to hell. That is why I only follow the ones that the church approves and the one in Medjugorje. Lets also be careful in what we hear and first investigate such apparitions.
 
ronin67 said:
I guess I would have to ask why would Holy Mother Mary (a human being who has passed on and is with our Father) come back at all? For one, it isn’t biblical on her returning and conveying messages (however, it is biblical that lying spirits exist to deceive).
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To further save humanity from destruction and going into hell. She also came back to protect us from the devil and to imprison him back into hell where he belongs. How is it not biblical for her returning and conveying messages? The Bible doesn’t say that she can’t or that a human in heaven can’t do so.
Also, why would Mary have to plead the blood of Christ to remind God our Father of this sacrifice? Did God forget? Highly unlikely since it was him in the flesh.
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Jesus is God the son and Mary did that to further remind God the Father of what Jesus did for us. When the world is covered in sin and there is barely anyone holy it’s logical to conlcude that he will forget because no one is holy or pure enough to remind him of what Jesus did for us. In other words, no one has faith or follows Jesus making God question if it was even worth it for Jesus to have died for us.
In all these accounts did the witnesses test the spirits as dictated in 1 John? The excuse, “Why would we have to test, if it was our Holy Mother Mary”, answer because the bible says so. You don’t think priests throughout time haven’t been deceived by Lucifer and his fallen angels?
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Not unless they have been in prayer. The same question I ask of all those that seperated from the only true church: the Catholic church. Since the protestantes protest against the Holy Church isn’t it logical to conlcude that Satan is behind all those divisiones as to destroy the church that Jesus Christ established on Peter? Doesn’t Satan hate Jesus? So wouldnt he want to destroy the church and use men as to create doctrines of men where everyone interpret a biblical passage diferently?
If that is the case, then we have to accept the encounter/vision of Joseph Smith as being true also. He stated he saw Christ Jesus and God himself. How do you then disprove his story? If you say by scripture, then the accounts of Mother Mary would be incorrect also since there is no documentation of the people encountering these apparitions of Mary testing the spirits when the encounter happens, as prescribed by Saint John in the book of 1 John. Also, testing of the spirit has to be completed in person by the person encountering the spirit. Asking the question after the fact, with a group of priests, bishops, etc., doesn’t meet the immediate requirement. Bottom line, a person’s position doesn’t excuse him or her from this testing requirement as prescribed by Saint John.
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You’re confusing.
Are you kidding me, you don’t think Lucifer couldn’t come in the form of our Holy Mother Mary to deceive?
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How? It isn’t possible unless she asks you to not believe in Jesus Christ and that is very unlikely. Well, if he is using Mary (according to you) he is doing a wonderful job and making thousands of conversions.😃
When I see processions carrying statues of Mother Mary and I don’t see a Statue of my Savior Jesus Christ, it bothers me. Does everyone get my specific point?
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Then why wont you buy them a statue of Jesus Christ and carry it for them?
 
thetruth0flife said:
Mary simply guides us and draws us to the Lord and savior Jesus Christ. These ‘people’ as in normal ordinary people or the famous apparitions such as Fatima and others? I do believe that the devil can decieve us by using Mary but that is very unlikely because the devil wants to decieve us into hating Jesus and going to hell. That is why I only follow the ones that the church approves and the one in Medjugorje. Lets also be careful in what we hear and first investigate such apparitions.
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I am very careful, that is why in the cases the church approves, was this the case where the people who saw the apparition tested the spirits right then and there as 1 John 4 states:

1 John 4:

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Now with this great passage from Saint John, do we know that each person (or one rep in a large group) who witnessed this apparition of Mary, did they test the apparition immediately upon seeing it. Here would be the scenario the way it should have played out:

Apparition of Mary appears and starts to convey message.

I then ask:

“Spirit do you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh”?

Spirit answers yes, proceed with message.

Spirit says no, rebuke the spirit in the name of Jesus Christ.

Now did the situations that the church deemed “The Real Deal” happen this way? It makes it so much easier, if the people read their Holy Bible’s and knew this requirement. Alas, not may Catholics read the Bible on a daily basis (I’ve been very pleased on this forum to see that many do, because most of the Catholics I met in my church only get the word from the daily reading in Mass by the priest).

More to follow on this I’m sure.

May God Bless!

Ed

P.S. Where can I go to read these Church approved sightings and recorded minutes of these interviews? Any help would be deeply appreciated.
 
First off when does Mary ever arrive and not confess Jesus Christ as God and the Savior?

You haven’t read any of these apparitions. Many of the apparitions involved the elect. Those who dedicated their lives to Christ. Many were children who were scared and needed confirmation to understand.

Many did not believe at first. St Bernedette left came back with Holy Water. Sprinkled the Holy Water on the area of the Apparition of Mary till the water was gone. Bernedette said “If you are not from God then go away, if you are than please stay”. The she begins to Pray the Rosary. Mary smiled. and allows her to Pray.

Mary returns to visit her 17 more times with more and more people each time. Lourdes attracts millions yearly. Many healings take place, still to this date.

Bernadettes body is incorruptable. It remained intact for 150 years now. Surgeons have examined the body and can’t explain it, but to say, “It in itself is a miracle”.

The Vatican doesn’t hear these stories and immediatly deem them real and true. They spend thousands to investigate. And if they find nothing to support the eye witness they will tell that story also.

Look I understand the cautious attitude. I came to the Rosary years after refusing to accept it. My mother prays it daily since childhood, she’s 86. Her mother prayed [my grandmother] prayed it daily her entire life and attended mass daily.

Myself and my brothrs and sisters looked at all this in a critical way. We grew in different generations. through the 60’s 70’s and times of radical change in the US.

I started researching the Rosary after I began Praying it. I only knew what I had been told constantly for years. “Do this and it will change your life, give it a honest effort.” I worked with people, helping them for 20-years. I didn’t believe I was that bad of a person. BUt yet I knew there something missing, I wasn’t surrounded with peace and serenity like my family and others I have witnessed were.

Well to make a long story short, I began Praying the Rosary daily. I felt things began happening and changing fairly quickly. Events I didn’t believe could, nor would happen, did. I came upon a deeper spiritual connection with Christ and the Blessed Mother very quickly. Theres a different sense of security I feel through the Rosary now. I feel protected and know I am. I feel connected. I feel a deeper remorse for my sins, and I immediatly began to change areas I felt didn’t coincide with the Catholic Faith. Most of all I"m gratefull and truly feel Blessed. I don’t have that pride or image today and frankly don’t need it.

Well around this point is when I begain researching the Rosary. While I found the various apparitions and healings to be very touching. I wasn’t surprised as I may have been, had I not prayed the Rosary. Many of those apparitions definatly left a profound affect on many, they continue to heal and convert, thats how powerfull they were/are. I understand how this works now. I have a clearer view of the desire of Christ and Mary.

Anyway I hope you find the Truth your looking for. Just goggle “Apparitions and PIctures of Virgin Mary”. There not all there, but many are and it will tell which are approved by the Vatican . Read about Zeitoun, Egypt. Its approved by the Vatican but not at that sight Akita Japan is not approved but it will be. Its pretty amazing also.

Medjugorje I find, well, I have trouble with it. I haven’t been there, but I just feel theres something not right there. Thats my opinion, and you can take it for whats it worth. But as I tell you I believe from the bottom of my heart many apparitions are very real. I would also explain those I get a distinct feeling about thats not positive. Maybe I"m wrong, time will tell. Or Mary will show us what the truth is with Medjugorje.

God Bless, GT
 
ronin67 said:
I am very careful, that is why in the cases the church approves, was this the case where the people who saw the apparition tested the spirits right then and there as 1 John 4 states:

1 John 4:

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Now with this great passage from Saint John, do we know that each person (or one rep in a large group) who witnessed this apparition of Mary, did they test the apparition immediately upon seeing it. Here would be the scenario the way it should have played out:

Apparition of Mary appears and starts to convey message.

I then ask:

“Spirit do you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh”?

Spirit answers yes, proceed with message.

Spirit says no, rebuke the spirit in the name of Jesus Christ.

Now did the situations that the church deemed “The Real Deal” happen this way? It makes it so much easier, if the people read their Holy Bible’s and knew this requirement. Alas, not may Catholics read the Bible on a daily basis (I’ve been very pleased on this forum to see that many do, because most of the Catholics I met in my church only get the word from the daily reading in Mass by the priest).

More to follow on this I’m sure.

May God Bless!

Ed

P.S. Where can I go to read these Church approved sightings and recorded minutes of these interviews? Any help would be deeply appreciated.
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Just one comment…if a person goes to daily Mass they will hear the majority of the Holy Bible proclaimed to them through the priest, in a three year cycle. Also an explanation of that said Gospel or other reading.
 
St. Francis de Sales said that the greatest method of praying is to Pray the Rosary.

“The rosary is the scourage of the devil.” Pope Adrian VI

“The rosary is a treasury of graces.” Pope Paul V

St Padre Pio, the stigmatic priest said: “The rosary is the weapon.”
 
maryj said:
Just one comment…if a person goes to daily Mass they will hear the majority of the Holy Bible proclaimed to them through the priest, in a three year cycle. Also an explanation of that said Gospel or other reading.
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This is true, but reading the Holy Scriptures on your own is necessary also. They hear the specific passage for that days Mass, but lets be real here, how many really remember same or walk out afterwards and ask the Priest for deeper clarification of the passage. From my experience not many. In fact I personally got involved with a few of my church members here in Japan, explained to them the need to feed themselves with God’s word everyday outside Mass. To me knowing the word and reading it everyday isn’t an option. I’m not anything great, I convicted myself to this because I know how sinful I am. So for the typical Catholic to remember 1 John 4, if they are approached by a spirit claiming to be from God, they are not going to remember the requirement. This even simplifies the task of the official inquiry from the Catholic church after the encounter. If the person states he followed the guidelines per Saint John’s instruction in 1 John 4, then less of an inquiry has to be conducted. The spirit either stated; “Yes or No”, acknowledging that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Pretty simple stuff when you think about it, but I could really understand a person being nervous when approached by a spirit with a message. However, this does not exempt this person from testing the spirit thru Saint John’s clear instructions. My question again, were these instructions from Saint John followed during these supposed sightings of our Holy Mother Mary? Again, I don’t see our Holy Mother having a problem answering this question when asked, if it is in fact her.

May God Bless!

Ed
 
St Gemma Galgani had visions and she was instructed to say “Blessed be Jesus and Mary” and the spirit had to repeat the words. The good spirits repeated the words perfectly, and the demons in disguise could not. I have a problem with the idea that a demon could appear to someone and look like Mary and say something like what she said in Fatima. There are other, unapproved apparitions, that are more based on miracles and sensational stuff like that rather than the message, and that could be problematic. There are many false apparitions out there. But the genuine apparitions always produce good fruit, and the ‘seers’ live very holy (and hidden) lives, and if the apparition is of Mary, she tells us to pray, to love God, to repent of sin, etc. It might be things that we already know but need reminders of, and also to reach the unbelievers.
 
ronin67 said:
I guess I would have to ask why would Holy Mother Mary (a human being who has passed on and is with our Father) come back at all? For one, it isn’t biblical on her returning and conveying messages (however, it is biblical that lying spirits exist to deceive). Also, why would Mary have to plead the blood of Christ to remind God our Father of this sacrifice? Did God forget? Highly unlikely since it was him in the flesh. In all these accounts did the witnesses test the spirits as dictated in 1 John? The excuse, “Why would we have to test, if it was our Holy Mother Mary”, answer because the bible says so. You don’t think priests throughout time haven’t been deceived by Lucifer and his fallen angels?
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don’t we pray in Jesus’ name and offer Christ’s Body and Blood to the Father in the Divine Mercy chaplet? it’s not because God forgets, of course He doesn’t forget, but it makes the prayer much more powerful when we link it to the Cross.

I think Mary could come back, since Moses and Elijah appeared in the Transfiguration 🙂

Mary’s mission isn’t over, it’s not like God wanted her to bear His Son and that’s the END… her mission is ongoing because she is always His Mother and ours, and prays for us and wants us to be saved. So at times she appears to people to encourage them to come closer to God and to pray. Of course, there are false apparitions too, but the counterfeits suggest there are real apparitions too 🙂
When I see processions carrying statues of Mother Mary and I don’t see a Statue of my Savior Jesus Christ, it bothers me. Does everyone get my specific point?
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I see your point because I was Protestant before i was Catholic, but I see it differently… I mean, is there a competition between Jesus and Mary? If we come to Mary, she just leads us closer to God… if we pray to her, God also hears our prayer… they are together in Heaven. If we carry a statue of Mary in a procession, well we are carrying a statue of the Mother of God, not of some pagan idol. 🙂

God bless!
 
Ed,

Following and reading the Bible on a regular basis is an admirable practice.

Bible from Matthew

“ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

After the final chapter of the Bible was closed in Revelations, there continued the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. That is the Keys of Christs blood, it is Jesus Christ. They are not confirming anythng without supporting evidence of the Supernatural.

Heres the process:

The steps of the investigation are mandated as follows: An initial evaluation of the facts of the alleged event, based on both positive and negative criteria:

Positive Criteria

moral certainty (the certainty required to act morally in a situation of doubt) or at least great probability as to the existence of a private revelation at the end of a serious investigation into the case

evaluation of the personal qualities of the person in question (mental balance, honesty, moral life, sincerity, obedience to Church authority, willingness to practice faith in the normal way, etc.)

evaluation of the content of the revelations themselves (that they do not disagree with faith and morals of the Church, freedom from theological errors)

the revelation results in healthy devotion and spiritual fruits in people’s lives (greater prayer, greater conversion of heart, works of charity that result, etc.)

Negative Criteria

glaring errors in regard to the facts

doctrinal errors attributed to God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, or to the Holy Spirit in how they appear

any pursuit of financial gain in relation to the alleged event

gravely immoral acts committed by the person or those associated with the person at the time of the event

psychological disorders or tendencies on the part of the person or persons associated

After this initial investigation, if the occurrence meets the criteria, positive and negative, an initial cautionary permission can be granted that basically states: “for the moment, there is nothing opposed to it”. This permits public participation in the devotion in regard to the alleged apparition.

Then…

Ultimately, a final judgment and determination needs to be given, giving approval or condemnation of the event.

Your debating symantics on testing apparitions. This is the test and they are the authority today, as stated in the Bible. Christ understood he was not going to be here physically. And he was man and felt all that we as men feel. So he understood the thinking that would exist after his death of body.

The Church is also well aware of evil. They have been at war with it for thousands of years. They also deal with it literally through hundreds of individual case’s yearly. Have you ever read any of Fr Malichi Martins books or listened to his lectures? Search for him of You Tube.

On the other hand,when you begin following the teaching of Martin Luther. You have to first research the man. While he was intelligent, he also had a contemp for the Catholic faith which dated back to his young adult years. Read the debates of the reformation with Luther and Erasmus. You won’t read far till you realize the man was venomous. When Erasmus refused to uphold Luthers side of the debate he was met with total comtemp.

You can’t find God till you learn to lose self, not really. Luther was never able to do this. It takes much courage to abandon “I” and “mine”. When the self wins independence from its own madness and foolishness, then all becomes clear. Without a doubt Luther stumbled here.

Many contend Luther held the affirmative side to the debates. Not really, Erasmus was being kind to a friend, and in the spirit of reverence which is the teaching of the Bible. Yet he never wavered publicly in his belief and faith in the church. And he was skeptical which is exactly how he and Luther became friends.

My point being? Its said that Erasmus laid the Egg that Luther hatched. In truth Erasmus found Luther and early reformers to be too dogmatic about their views. Erasmus stated that the proposed ideas were so complicated and fraught with conflicts that one ought to admit that human beings could not be sure of the answers. They should accept the teachings of the Catholic Church nondogmatically.

To understand how all this began, is to understand the thinking of Erasmus from the start. He raised many criticisms about corruption in church practice and in the lives of the clergy, But he did not join the reformation. Erasmus concluded that we cannot abandon the very proven fabric of life which has brought, and continues to bring men to God. And all that spoke against and questioned the perpetual Virginity of Mary, he called Blasphemers. Rightfully so, from Luther we continue down a path to question the very idea of Religion? And thus the doctrine, confirmation, and better thinking of the Church. Which leads one to rely only on the Bible. Doesn’t work and can’t. It fails miserably at the very basic reality of who Christ is and his purpose. He is the “Redeemer” and thats what Christology is suppose to do, co-redeem through Christ. When we lose all concept of what the purpose of Christianty is, then we fail at its basic fundamental purpose. To save Souls.

God Bless Bro, GT

Not to get off track, but I believe this is where the falling away begins. And this falling away, followed today without being clearly undrstood? Its dangerous. Faith is a knowledge in the heart, beyond the reach of Proof.
 
Thought this seemed appropriate for some of the concerns raised in this thread:
“… Mary’s own influence is included in that of her Son, inseparable from it, and nothing would grieve her more than an attempt to separate or even to distinguish it from his, as if she could or would be anything without him. Her great merit is in willing only what he wills, and in doing only what he inspires and enables her to do. What she does in relation to our salvation or our progress or perseverance in grace is only what he does by her. It is really he who does it, and in crowning her, he crowns his own work. He makes her the channel or medium of his grace and favors to men because he loves and delights to honor her by granting them at her request, but it is he who grants them. She is all powerful with him, and he will deny her nothing she asks for, because she asks only for that which accords with his will, and which he is more ready and willing to grant than even she is to ask. With all the love and tenderness of her woman’s nature, and of her mother’s heart, she cannot love us so much or so tenderly as he does. A woman may forget her sucking child, but he cannot forget us. He delights to grant her requests for her clients, because she makes no requests which he does not inspire, and because to grant these favors at her request honors her, and gives her a share in his glory. How much the world is indebted to her intercession with him, we know not, cannot know, and need not to know. Be it more or be it less, it is to him the world owes it, for it is he who filled her with grace and made her the most blessed of creatures, and it is he who inspires and listens to her intercessions, and her work is as indistinguishable from his as is the work of the church herself.”
Dr. Orestes Brownson, The Moral and Social Influence of Devotion to Mary
ewtn.com/library/MARY/MORSOCDM.HTM
 
Its often debated about the idea of the apparitions being tested. That responsibilty lies with those who witness Mary. And that has nothing to do with validity of the apparitions. Should anyone witness Mary and not question the apparition as John mentions in the Bible, how would that nullify the reality of Mary? Those are questions for the seers. Which is why I posted the Vaticans process for confirmation, which is rigorous. The questions that arrise from John in the BIble have nothing to do with Mary appearing, how could it? I"m missing something here? Mary herself is proof of Christ coming in the flesh. And regardless of a seer using this verse from the Bible, the Vatican is going to investigate anyway. That verse is a safeguard for self.

As witnessed in Lourdes, Mary had no problem with the questioning of her legitimacy. And at Fatima she showed the children hell. And explained to them that “This is where sinners go”. Sr Lucy was so profoundly affected by the apparitions she became a Nun, and warned against mans error in Christ from 1917 to her death in 2005. Thats 88 years she spread Gods message to man. I fail to see Souls led astray from an approved apparition of Mary, on the contrary thousands have been saved. They continue to save , convert, heal. They are truly a Blessing.

Marys appearence’s have been not just for Catholics, but for all earth and humans.
 
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