The Rosary is NOT the Way

[Leonius]

Calumny against those who say the Rosary

This is a reaction post, a reaction to unseemly strands of thought that lurk beneath the surface of this forum.

they may lose track of the heart of our faith.

John 14:6

What I fear most is a dangerous type of cultism, which stipulates that certain actions, apart from the grace of God, lead one to heaven.

Exactly!

I’m talking more about people who recite the Rosary without an eye to deeper conversation with God, as if the words themselves were liberating. This is not prayer but merely the repetition of a pattern of words.

I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, the Rosary, among devotions, is especially prone to abuse by well-wishing Catholics.

The question is whether one puts the Rosary above other necessities in the spiritual life, or, more importantly, whether one uses the Rosary as a means of feeling superior over other Catholics, creating stumbling blocks for them.

Leonius,

when most people say the Rosary, they just say the words without contemplation and without sincerity.

My point was that **the Rosary seems to be one of those things that people do to feel good about their faith but then are severely lacking in other areas of their faith life. **

All of which amounts to saying that the Rosary and those who promote it are bad, Saying that “The Rosary is ok, but…” etc does not change the main thrust of what is been said it just means you are trying to conceal your attack.

 

[Zahmir]

This is a dangerous statement.

It is dangerous because ut cn be taken as denying the intercession of Mary and the Saints. To call Christ the one Mediator is the more appropriate term, calling him the One Intercessor can be seen as excluding the intercession by anyone else, which would be heresy.

Now I don’t believe you deny the intercession of Mary and the saints, but you need to be more accurate with your words.

What you do seem to be doing and what I object to is that you seem to be looking to lessen devotion to Mary and the Saints in favour of always going directly to God, this is a protestant mindset stemming from their denial of Mary and the Saints power to intercede and is at odds with centuries and centuries of Catholic tradition.

Leonius,

Yes, Mediator is the correct term. I apologize for my error.

As a general question to you, Leonius, and perhaps we can end this debate: Apart from prayer to the saints, can you explain the importance of prayer directly with God?

I will certainly not deny the intercession of the saints; St. Vincent de Paul, as my Confirmation saint, is a powerful intercessor for me before God. I just want to make sure that you appreciate the fact that we can have a direct relationship with God. If you can, I think we can call this thread closed and might ask the moderators to do so.

 

[Leonius]

Encouraging people not to say the or promote the Rosary

it may be better to talk them through and offer them insightful and helpful reading.

Exactly!

Ultimately, I think it’s more important to encourage people, especially those who are in some way straying from the faith, to direct conversation with God.

I always found the Rosary boring. Just

my,:twocents:

On the topic of ecumenism: “Protestant” Fr. Frank Pavone has pointed to the insistence of Catholic pro-lifers on saying the Rosary as a cause of division in the Pro-Life movement, and he has suggested several times that Catholics start using the Divine Office at prayer vigils so we can pray in a way that is most authentically Catholic and more accessible to our Protestant brethren.

In public, when someone sees me with my rosary, their usual response is, “Is that some kind of good luck charm?” If I try to explain the Rosary, it goes over their heads . If they see me with a breviary, they say, “That’s an interesting looking Bible.” I say, “It’s actually not a Bible. It’s the Divine Office.” “What’s that?” “It’s an ancient Catholic prayer service based upon the Psalms.” I then go on to explain it, and it proves a fruitful moment of evangelization.

 

[Leonius]

That this thread has caused has caused offense

The title of the thread is offensive.

I couldn’t
disagree with you
more.
I think that while you may be well-intentioned – you’re quite confused.
What is the Rosary? It is certainly not as you would call, *“merely the repetition of a pattern of words”. ***The entire **first half of the Hail Mary is

completely drawn from Scripture. The second part is a petition to our Blessed Mother for prayer. We are asking the Mother of God to pray for us – andbelieve me, this is a
powerful tool.

You would have us take focus away from this powerful tool simply because some people abuse of prayer or petition. Hogwash! There will always be those abusers. We should pray for them - not take prayer away from them.

**Those anti-Catholics who accuse us of vain repetitions spoken of in Matt. 6:7, fail to realize that Jesus was speaking of the prayers and mantras of the pagans. Pagan gibberish. They close their eyes to the fact that a few lines later, he goes on to teach us the Our

Father (the Lord’s Prayer).****Consider Revelation 4:8:*****The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out.

Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

---

**“Merely the repetition of a pattern of words”
indeed! **

Wrong. In every one of his
posts on this thread, he is minimizing the Rosary and it’s effectiveness. The mere title is offensive.

This is offensive in many ways. Let me see if I missed something: People do not pray nor prescribe the Rosary according to YOUR standards.

First, you denigrate the Rosary as a means to get closer to Christ. “Oh, it’s not the ONLY way.” Maybe not—but according to whom?

Second, you ask us to refrain from prescribing it as a cure-all? The Rosary may have saved my life. Is that a better prescription than, oh, say, calling a help hotline? Or maybe I should not have prayed so many Rosaries. Maybe I have just deluded myself.

You dictate to us a rather lofty set of standards for how, when, and what to think.

While you may be well on your way to sainthood, and ‘know’ the ‘proper’ way to pray the Rosary, the rest of us poor rabble are mere sinners, myself right up there among them, and yes, mere sinners do become distracted at times, even during prayer. We fall short of praying the Rosary according to YOUR standards. But to this poor sinner, ANY Rosary prayed is better than none at all.

Lastly, I congratulate you on your ability to read minds and therefore know in what state each of us poor individuals prays the common, shopworn Rosary.

But, is that what the OP is about? I do not see folks questioning other devotions as they do the rosary.

Add me to this also.

 

[fix]

Leonius,

Yes, Mediator is the correct term. I apologize for my error.

As a general question to you, Leonius, and perhaps we can end this debate: Apart from prayer to the saints, can you explain the importance of prayer directly with God?

I will certainly not deny the intercession of the saints; St. Vincent de Paul, as my Confirmation saint, is a powerful intercessor for me before God. I just want to make sure that you appreciate the fact that we can have a direct relationship with God. If you can, I think we can call this thread closed and might ask the moderators to do so.

I will let others answer that question, but it is a teaching of the Church that all graces come from Christ and flow through Mary to us. She dispenses these graces. Her position, as willed by Christ, is unique among all creatures and all intercessors.

 

[Leonius]

Leonius,

Apart from prayer to the saints, can you explain the importance of prayer directly with God?

Why don’t you tell us

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Every time I pray the Rosary I get some form of new insight. But I guess that’s not good enough for those who would monitor how we pray.

 

[Eddie_D]

Every time I pray the Rosary I get some form of new insight. But I guess that’s not good enough for those who would monitor how we pray.

Someone’s monitoring how we pray? Cool

 

[Leonius]

Fr. Vincent Serpa:

The rosary is not meant to be the ordeal you are making of it. When you pray the rosary privately, you can meditate on only one mystery for the five decades if you want to. If you want to meditate before you begin the prayers, that’s okey too. What is important is that you PRAY! It’s all about God!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=280394

 

[Zahmir]

A direct relationship with God is, depending on how you want to parse it, either one of the results or the goal of Jesus’ Incarnation, death, and Resurrection.

No longer need our prayers be mediated through ritual actions, blood sacrifices, etc., but as the shroud before the Holy of Holies tearing symbolizes, all Christians, having been united to Christ in his priesthood, can approach that Holy of Holies and can communicate directly with God, in the person of Jesus Christ, in love and faith.

The intercession of the saints is certainly is a means to deeper relationship with God, Mary being the most powerful intercessor, but no orthodox Catholic would argue that praying to the saints, even Mary herself, is the end of our prayer life. It is relationship with God in Christ that defines the Christian.

 

[Leonius]

A direct relationship with God is, depending on how you want to parse it, either one of the results or the goal of Jesus’ Incarnation, death, and Resurrection.So did Abraham or Moses etc. not have a direct relationship with God then?

No longer need our prayers be mediated through ritual actions, blood sacrifices, etc.,What do you think happens during the Mass then? but as the shroud before the Holy of Holies tearing symbolizes, all Christians, having been united to Christ in his priesthood,All are not united equally though, note we are not all priests, not all of us can perform the Eucharistic miracle of turning bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Chrsit can approach that Holy of Holies and can communicate directly with God, in the person of Jesus Christ, in love and faith.

The intercession of the saints is certainly is a means to deeper relationship with God, Mary being the most powerful intercessor, but no orthodox Catholic would argue that praying to the saints, even Mary herself, is the end of our prayer life. It is relationship with God in Christ that defines the Christian.

I thought you might say something like this. Now I will explain to you why I did not answer your question.

This question: “can you explain the importance of prayer directly with God?” is not a valid question as it is based on a false understanding of prayers to Mary and the Saints. Catholics do not recognise a division of “direct” and “indirect” prayer or that prayer to God is better than prayers to Mary and the Saints because all Catholic prayer including to Mary and the Saints is ultimately to God.

All prayer lifts the mind and heart to God, all prayer allows us to enter into the presence of the Godhead dwelling in us. All prayer allows us to adore God, by acknowledging His almighty power; all prayer allows us to bring our thanks, our petitions, and our sorrow for sin before our Lord and God.

When you ask someone to pass a message on for you is your message directed to the person you gave the message to or the person you want to be the final recipient? When you write a leter to someone are you not having a relationship with that person because you give the letter to the mailman instead of the actualy person you are writing to? Is it worth less because the mail man delivered it instead of you?

There is no conflict between praying to God and praying to the Saints because both types of prayer are prayers to God, when you pray to Mary or to the Saints you ARE praying to God. Its not even really true to say we pray to Mary or the Saints, the more accurate term is that we pray THROUGH them, who do we pray through them to? That’s right God.

This is incidently why there is nothing in the CCC about directly praying to God as opposed to praying to Mary or the Saints etc, such a question is not compatible with a proper Catholic understanding of prayer in the first place and as such is never even considered.

By praying to the saints, instead of dishonoring God–as Protestants say we do–we really honor Him more than by praying directly to Himself. We show that we believe in His great dignity, His awful majesty and our own nothingness…By praying to the saints for help we confess that we are too unworthy to present ourselves to God and address Him–to come before His awful Majesty, and that we will wait here in the humble attitude of prayer while you, holy saints, His dearest friends, go into His presence and ask for us the favors and graces we require. Baltimore Catechism

 

[Zahmir]

Leonius,

It is a tragedy of the fall that as humanity progressed, we became further and further separated from God. Eventually, God speaks through clouds and through fire and through angels. It finally gets to the point in the Bible when it seems that God has almost altogether left the picture–we are left with a people yearning for God and who speak to him through signs and rituals, and God in return.

Leonius, there is, in fact, a priesthood of all the believers. By virtue of our Christian faith, we take on three “roles” of Jesus Christ, priest, prophet, and king. I can post the appropriate Vatican II documents, if you wish.

Finally, I agree with your beautiful post. Just don’t argue that we shouldn’t pray to God directly, for this is the vibe I have gotten from some of your posts. I want to make sure that you are not arguing this.

You could make a valid argument that prayer “through” the saints is “better.” You could make a valid argument that prayer directly with God is “better.” I think the difference lies in the spirituality of the pray-er and what he or she might need, and Catholicism allows both.

 

[Leonius]

Leonius,

Leonius, there is, in fact, a priesthood of all the believers. By virtue of our Christian faith, we take on three “roles” of Jesus Christ, priest, prophet, and king. I can post the appropriate Vatican II documents, if you wish.

That is not necessary I am aware of the documents, I do however feel you do not correctly understand what it means.

Just don’t argue that we shouldn’t pray to God directly, for this is the vibe I have gotten from some of your posts.

Well then you make another error in judgement. AS I have said there is no significant difference in these forms of prayer.

This whole thread is as it is because you have decided it is better for us to all pray “directly” to God and that most people who say the Rosary have serious problems with their spiritual life.

 

[ac_claire]

Finally, I agree with your beautiful post. Just don’t argue that we shouldn’t pray to God directly, for this is the vibe I have gotten from some of your posts. I want to make sure that you are not arguing this.

Zahmir, no Leonius is not at all saying this. I invite you to go back and re-read his post. He’s saying that prayers through our Heavenly family, the saints, is prayer directly to God. That’s why they are called intercessors. Prayer to the saints does not end with the saints. You understand?

You could make a valid argument that prayer “through” the saints is “better.” You could make a valid argument that prayer directly with God is “better.” I think the difference lies in the spirituality of the pray-er and what he or she might need, and Catholicism allows both.

He’s not saying praying to the saints is “better.” You’re setting up a false contrast here. It’s not either/or. If you want to exclude prayers to saints from your prayer life because you feel more comfortable praying “directly” to God yourself, well that’s your choice and the Church doesn’t disallow it. But you may want to examine your motives for making such an exclusion.

I could be way off-base here, but it seems to me that maybe you have been exposed to some protestant anti-Catholic rhetoric against the communion of saints, and perhaps it’s getting to you? This argument that the Rosary and the saints somehow takes away from our prayers to God is like wrestling with a straw man.

Even if you’re not aware of it, it’s possible it has invaded your subconscious. That very thing has happened with me before.

 

[Zahmir]

Taking Leonius’ mailman example,

In both cases, God gets the message. But I think there is something to be said for speaking directly WITH God, addressing him by NAME. There is something powerful in being able to address God directly in prayer with “Father.”

I understand that all prayers are ultimately prayers to God, but that “I-Thou” relationship with God in Christ is undeniably important. The Saints have a role, of course, and a very important one. But there IS a difference between addressing Mary, or any of the saints, in your prayers, and addressing God directly. It’s this difference that Leonius doesn’t seem to understand.

 

[Michael_David]

Within the Rosary prayers is this one:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name…

This one Christ taught us, and it speaks straight to “Our Father” (God). And when we get to “forgive us our trespasses”, we are addressing the second person of the Trinity (Christ). And when we get to “and lead us not into temptation”, we are addressing the third person of the Trinity (Holy Spirit).

Also: Hail Mary, full of grace…

This one we are addressing Mary, Christ’s Mother.

It is all there, if one knows what they are saying when they say it.

Keep Praying.

 

[Leonius]

Taking Leonius’ mailman example,

In both cases, God gets the message. But I think there is something to be said for speaking directly WITH God, addressing him by NAME. There is something powerful in being able to address God directly in prayer with “Father.”

I understand that all prayers are ultimately prayers to God, but that “I-Thou” relationship with God in Christ is undeniably important. The Saints have a role, of course, and a very important one. But there IS a difference between addressing Mary, or any of the saints, in your prayers, and addressing God directly. It’s this difference that Leonius doesn’t seem to understand.

Well then Zahmir tell us whats the difference?

More importantly can you find any authoritative Catholic source to back you up?

I only ask because the Baltimore Catechism agrees with me and even goes further saying that praying through the Saints is BETTER while the only people I know who speak about prayer like you do are protestants or those who have been under their influence.

So Zahmir show us what you’ve got.

And don’t speak about me like I’m not here either.

 

[ac_claire]

Catholics pray to God, and we pray w/ the Saints. If you are Catholic, then it’s what you do. It’s what we all do at Mass even if you don’t do it privately. This is part of being Catholic. Don’t over-rationalize these things, and don’t argue with straw men. The protestants try to put us on the defensive but that shouldn’t concern you. You already knowwho holds the words of eternal life or you wouldn’t be Catholic. So have some faith in your Church and her traditional expressions of faith.

 

[Zahmir]

Well then Zahmir tell us whats the difference?

More importantly can you find any authoritative Catholic source to back you up?

I only ask because the Baltimore Catechism agrees with me and even goes further saying that praying through the Saints is BETTER while the only people I know who speak about prayer like you do are protestants or those who have been under their influence.

So Zahmir show us what you’ve got.

And don’t speak about me like I’m not here either.

Can you direct me to the appropriate passage?

 

[Leonius]

Can you direct me to the appropriate passage?

Baltimore Catechism no.4, Lesson 31, Question 331.