The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[wmscott]

The one that got it right by the Holy Spirit, why would he need another authority to turn to, and would it not offend the Holy Spirit that he had to turn to someone else? The one who got it wrong, how would he know how to decide between the three churches, all claiming to have it right ? If the Holy Spirit’s help was not received in the first place, why would he receive help in finding right church ? Do you abandon that which does work for so many (getting the same personal divine revelation on a matter), in your search for utopia, trying to perfect/ override that which can not be, doing away with personal conviction ?

This does not answer the question, just an attempt to avoid the obvious. But to answer your first statement “The one that got it right by the Holy Spirit, why would he need another authority to turn to”, Because Christ Himself instituted that authority to turn to, especially in the matters of conflict with interpretation of Sacred Scripture. I have answered this in post 231 and 273 in detail.

So my question still stands, what happens when two “Christians” read the same scripture and come to two totally different interpretations? We already agree that there is but one truth and that the Holy Spirit would never lie to us. So who is right and who is wrong? who was the Holy Spirit with and who was without? who do the two turn to for the “Authoritative” interpretation?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Wow. Take a moment to reread what you wrote, I don’t that is what you really mean.

Relativism is the point, picked up by someone else. I’m attempting to show you this by your own paradigm

There’s no compulsion in religion. Where you have freedom of religion you are going to have splits, when our governments cease dictating who can believe what, this is what you have. You think it is a bad thing. I don’t. What I believe is that it frees up man to make a study and an an attempt to come to truth without any type of physical threat looming over them. I trust that whoever truly seeks God will find Him because that’s what He tells me, I’m not as concerned about the splits in Christendom in the same way you are but it grieves me just as deeply because I do think Jesus wants unity. What type and what form that would come in is where we differ.

I don’t see anyone dictating anything. I do see sound theological doctrine based on tradition, scripture, thus the Church. The Church never denied anyone their free will, nor does the Church state you “must” pray the Rosary. I’m pretty sure we established intercessional prayer is a historic reality and very early in the Church. Members of the Church have always sought intercession through Mary, its a church teaching. Affirmed by many Saints which you don’t recognize, and deemed through self admitted fallible people wasn’t needed? Luther? For an fallible argument I find it stunning the status quo is Luther, one would begin to think he was the infallible Pope for protestants. Not true

Again, sola scriptura does not kick all tradition to the curb.

But you have and many have embraced the very false teaching you speak of. Above.

And what fallible individuals deem isn’t relevant, as I demonstrated, they then also add Christian Rap, Snake handling and various novel ideas which we agree have no basis in Christianity.

Thus you have a double standard based on no tradition of scripture and fallible men who according to you really have no authority, only a premise they are guided by the HS. Which cannot be verified by 3000 denominations. So why do you believe of the 3000 you found the absolute truth? Is this where you repeat Jesus is the truth which we all agree on and doesn’t resolve the double standard?

So on the other side of the coin we have the Church who has deemed the Rosary a most effective means of prayer. By your own logic what makes my own paradigm any different than yours other than the CC traces its roots to St Peter and does claim authority through the charisma of the teaching authority. In other words its historic and in reality present. And divinely instituted by the Lord and Biblically which you through fallible people embrace their fallible understanding of scripture.

I fail to see the argument?

The same Holy Spirit didn’t lead everyone in 3000 different comprehensions of the truth. There is only one.

So why would we believe anything other than what has indeed been the tradition of the Church and is based on scripture. And as I contend that’s how all the issues arise…fallible men who deem what is and what isn’t relevant outside of the Catholic Church and its teaching authority.

 

[Kliska]

I see. So, I guess we do not completely agree, but we do at least agree on some things. Anything can hinder the salvation journey if misused or misunderstood. And, this can be true for the rosary. It can be true for scripture as well. St. Peter warns that some will twist scripture to their own destruction when referring to the letters of St. Paul in 2 Pt 3:16. As for the Our Father example, I appreciate your position on this. Vain repetition of any prayer or action is a hindrance. Indeed, it is one’s intent of the heart that determines its usefulness on the salvation journey.

Yes, I agree. I think it is interesting here that “salvation journey” itself would mean two different things to us I think, yet we can agree at the same time. For me, salvation journey would be getting someone to the point of faithing on Jesus, and then it moves to sanctification. Whereas you would see someone’s whole lives as leading up to salvation?

So, the concepts, though different, are similar enough to overlap. For me, the question then is what helps someone attain salvation (by grace through faith) and then what helps someone progress in sanctification. With the emphasis placed on salvation, for if that point is not reached sanctification is moot.

Jesus is surely The Way, The Truth, and The Light. Christ is Truth, He has revealed Truth to us via oral and written traditions, and He has revealed Truth thru His mystical body (aka the Church). I concur that God moves us as He sees fit. For instance, here we are discussing Christian Truth on the Catholic Answers Forum. Labels do not determine salvation… but, they do help us to understand a person’s position on truth.

That is one thing I teach my comparative religions students; labels are an excellent starting point, but don’t stop there. If someone tells us they are a Muslim, than can mean quite a bit of things. If we take the example of someone saying they are Christian, then, I’m a Roman Catholic, I’m practicing, but I don’t believe everything the Church teaches, and on and on. We get closer and closer to what the individual actually thinks, believes, etc…

Most would assume a “protestant” would disagree with your first sentence, but that is not true, we also believe that “Jesus is surely The Way, The Truth, and The Light. Christ is Truth, He has revealed Truth to us via oral and written traditions, and He has revealed Truth thru His mystical body (aka the Church).” The only difference really being “Church” truly would be the universal church which we don’t believe is exactly the same as the RCC. The other thing we’d try to point out is what much of the arguing is about lol; oral traditions are good and useful unless conflicting with written, since oral can shift and change, while written remains the same and can be checked and rechecked.

And that does bring us back on topic as far as prayer to saints, rosaries, Mary, etc… and why there’s the differences. I think there ARE misunderstandings between perspectives, but there are also understandings. We simplify things overly much if we forget that. There are true differences in our beliefs about things and each side has premises or reasons for their views.

How do you know which teachings are true, if others using the same criteria disagree? I do agree that absolute truth is a person, Christ. However, it is not either/or, but both/and. Truth is both the Word made flesh, and what He has revealed to us thru the various modes of transmission - Tradition, Scripture, & Church. I should also say that the Church is both an organizational structure and the collection of Christians.

I guess I, and many protestants, believe that the knowledge of truth is up to us with God’s help to arrive at, so there is absolute truth and it is up to us with God’s help to find it. That is were we believe working out our own salvation with fear and trembling comes in. Also, it is a lot of responsibility and I feel that is reflected in Paul’s relationship with Timothy, and also the mention of Bereans searching scripture daily. Also, we believe in seeking help from the Spirit and then actually listening to it.

The RCC teaches the same thing, or close to it, but only applies it to a select few, and then the rest are “obligated” to believe those select few if they are to remain fully a part of the RCC.

[uote]1Pt 3:15 speaks to what you are saying about dialogue with those of differing faith opinions. My aim here is to gain a better understanding of others faith perspectives and well as my own. It is the Holy Spirit that will convert hearts… I think many people forget this when evangelizing or even defending their faith.

Absolutely true.

This does help me better understand your position. For myself, I am not one to take matters of eternity lightly either. If I were to encounter a dogma or doctrine of the CC that I did not understand, I would too seek, read, pray, and have faith that the Lord will guide me. I do find it very comforting that Christ left us resources, such as I have noted in this post.

You are welcome. Thank you for your charity and honest answers.

In agreement.

One last thought for the thread in general; prayer is for our sakes too, meaning we all believe prayer is powerful and God hears our prayers, but even on a more immediate level, prayer helps us on it’s own. Focus, comfort, joy, companionship, etc… the effects are immediate for many of us. So, there are always multiple levels to try to figure out how and why and in what way we should be praying. Who to pray to, what manner in which to pray, what to say, why are you saying it, etc… etc… I don’t know about anyone else, but discussing all of this in connection with the rosary has really made me stop and think about all those issues, and that is a good thing.

 

[petra22]

Kliska, how about these in unison who utter the same words in discernment? Should we heed their authority?

“Would you like me to tell you a ‘secret’? It is simple, and after all, is no secret: ‘Pray, pray much. Say the Rosary everyday.’” -Pope John Paul II

“Spread the Rosary, the prayer so dear to the Virgin and so esteemed by popes; by it the faithful can best fulfill the command of Christ: ’ Ask and it shall be given; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.’ (Mt. 7:7). The Rosary puts all who have trust in it into communication with Our Lady.” -Pope Paul VI

“The Rosary, as is known to all, is in fact a very excellent means of prayer and meditation in the form of a mystical crown in which the prayers Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be to the Father are intertwined with meditation on the greatest mysteries of our Faith and which presents to the mind, like many pictures, the drama of the Incarnation of our Lord and the Redemption.” -Pope John XXIII

“If you recite the Family Rosary, all united, you shall taste peace; you shall have in your homes concord of souls. Hearing the Christian home resound with the praised of the Queen of Heaven (is) a simple fact in appearance, but extraordinarily received by God, such as to enrapture the Angels, which from Heaven see and hear! The Rosary recited in common gathers the parents with their children, piously joins them with those absent, with the deceased, draws all there, close to the Virgin, who, as Mother, will be in the midst of her children. We esteem the Rosary to be the most suitable and efficacious means to obtain the help of God. The flowers of the Rosary never perish.” -Pope Pius XII

“The Rosary is a powerful weapon to put the demons to flight and to keep oneself from sin… It not only serves admirably to overcome the enemies of God and of religion, but it is also a stimulus and an encouragement to the practice of the evangelical virtues, which it develops and cultivates in our souls. Above all, it nourishes our Catholic Faith…If you desire peace in your hearts, in your homes, and in your country, assemble each evening to recite the Rosary. Let not even one day pass without saying it, no matter how burdened you may be with many cares and labors.” -Pope Pius XI

“The Rosary elevates minds to the truths reveled by God and shows us Heaven opened. The Virgin Mary Herself has insistently recommended this manner of praying. All Graces are conceded to us by God through the hands of Mary.” - Pope Pius XI

“Nevertheless, if men in our century, with its derisive pride, reject the holy Rosary, there is an innumerable multitude of holy men of every age and every condition who have always held it dear. They have recited it with great devotion, and in every moment they have used it as a powerful weapon to put the demons to flight, to preserve the integrity of life, to acquire virtue more easily, and, in a word, to attain real peace among men.” -Pope Pius XI

“From it (the Rosary) the young will draw fresh energy with which to control the rebellious tendencies to evil and to preserve intact the stainless purity of the soul. Also in it, the old will again find repose, relief , and peace from their anxious cares. And to all those who suffer in any way, especially the dying, may it bring comfort and increase the hope of eternal Happiness.” -Pope Pius XI

“The prayer of the Rosary is perfect because of the praises it offers, the lessons it teaches, the graces it obtains, and the victories it achieves.” - Pope Benedict XV

“St. Dominic knew well that, while on the one hand Mary is all powerful with Her divine Son, who grants all graces to mankind through Her, on the other hand, She is by nature so good and so merciful that, inclined to aid spontaneously those who suffer, She is absolutely incapable of refusing Her help to those who invoke Her. The Church is in the habit of greeting the Virgin as ‘Mother of Grace’ and ‘Mother of Mercy,’ and so She has always shown Herself, especially when we have recourse to Her by means of the Holy Rosary.” -Pope Benedict XV

" The Rosary is the most beautiful and the richest of all prayers to the Mediatrix of all grace; it is the prayer that touches most the heart of the Mother of God. Say it each day." -Pope St. Pius X

" The Rosary is the most excellent form of prayer and the most efficacious means of attaining eternal life. It is the remedy for all our evils, the root of all our blessings. There is no more excellent way of praying." -Pope Leo XIII

“Among all the devotions approved by the Church, none has been so favored by so many miracles as the Rosary devotion.” - Pope Pius IX

“Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world.” -Pope Pius IX

Sorry for quoting the whole thing, but it just reminded me while I was reading the list of Popes who have promoted the use of the Rosary… God said, “I am the God of the Living, not the God of the dead…”

 

[pocohombre]

The very mysteries one reflects on, in the rosary, call to mind and heart the divinity of Christ and the glory of our Lord.

The contemplating the mysteries is good (except of two of them for us, the Assumption and her crowned as Queen of the Universe). It can be done without the Rosary however. So I think the prayer part is still supplication. That is, I can’t be thinking of biblical stories right in the middle of a prayer, like wandering off though to a good place. So when one prays the Hail Mary, the thoughts are on the words of the prayer, not the mystery momentarily contemplated at the beginning of a decade. …Here is one mystery contemplation I have difficulty with, "Give yourselves to me (Mary), my children. Entrust yourselves to my prayers. Jesus is always ready to respond to my prayers: …Obey me, your mother,…you will gain favor from the Lord" … catholic.org/prayers/mystery.php?id=3#5 As I and others have posted before, it is the active interaction with a saint in heaven (Mary in this case) many disagree with. It also makes it sound like saying the rosary is like a “work”, to gain favor, a little bit…Another division is this- “Virgin Mary, has been made worthy to sit at His right hand. crown the lowly creature Mary as Queen of the universe… My Son took me by the hand and led me to the throne prepared for me”.

They sing this unceasing hymn of praise.

A few years ago another correction was shown to me, that no where in the bible do angels sing. When I heard it and I had to see for myself. Their proclamations are just as glorious though. It may be a bummer on one hand but on the other may show just how special we are, that even the angels marvel at our conversion and ability to singing praises…Thanks again for your thought provoking response.

 

[wmscott]

This does not answer the question, just an attempt to avoid the obvious. But to answer your first statement “The one that got it right by the Holy Spirit, why would he need another authority to turn to”, Because Christ Himself instituted that authority to turn to, especially in the matters of conflict with interpretation of Sacred Scripture. I have answered this in post 231 and 273 in detail.

So my question still stands, what happens when two “Christians” read the same scripture and come to two totally different interpretations? We already agree that there is but one truth and that the Holy Spirit would never lie to us. So who is right and who is wrong? who was the Holy Spirit with and who was without? who do the two turn to for the “Authoritative” interpretation?

And the crickets keep on cherping

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

A few years ago another correction was shown to me, that no where in the bible do angels sing. When I heard it and I had to see for myself. Their proclamations are just as glorious though. It may be a bummer on one hand but on the other may show just how special we are, that even the angels marvel at our conversion and ability to singing praises

Interesting… I found that a couple of dynamic translations use sing, but the more literal english (DR and KJV) use say. In fact, most use “say” or “saying” from what I see. Thanks for sharing!

I understand your objections – saintly intercession & work to merit favor. As I mentioned in my initial post #260, my wife (who is SBC) had difficulty most of all with prayer to saints. How a devout Catholic and devout Southern Baptist came to be married?? Who knows!! My father-in-law calls us “Souther-Roman Batholics”. Anyway, I’ve never heard of the Rosary as being able to merit salvation (or as a work in that fashion). I refer to it and often hear it referred to it as a powerful prayer. But, I see how one can come to that impression when reading the quote you provided. Thank you for providing the catholic.org link. I will check out the sites info.

As for as contemplating the mysteries while reciting each decade, this is something I found rather difficult when I first started praying the rosary. Truthfully, I felt awkward. For me, it was an acquired ability. It took time to develop. I know folks who start praying it; and they are able to reflect with no trouble. My wife, oddly enough, is one of them!!

 

[wmscott]

And the crickets keep on cherping

So I guess silence speaks volumes

 

[dronald]

This does not answer the question, just an attempt to avoid the obvious. But to answer your first statement “The one that got it right by the Holy Spirit, why would he need another authority to turn to”, Because Christ Himself instituted that authority to turn to, especially in the matters of conflict with interpretation of Sacred Scripture. I have answered this in post 231 and 273 in detail.

So my question still stands, what happens when two “Christians” read the same scripture and come to two totally different interpretations? We already agree that there is but one truth and that the Holy Spirit would never lie to us. So who is right and who is wrong? who was the Holy Spirit with and who was without? who do the two turn to for the “Authoritative” interpretation?

Before CAF gets too excited I’ll say that this very topic (with thread title as the question being asked) has been posed and discussed to death here. This is one of the, “gotcha” questions when something can’t be found in the Bible.

The silence only speaks volumes in that the question is off topic. But I’ll bite just to prove a point.

If two Church’s disagree you ask the Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.

 

[sennincatholic]

Before CAF gets too excited I’ll say that this very topic (with thread title as the question being asked) has been posed and discussed to death here. This is one of the, “gotcha” questions when something can’t be found in the Bible.

The silence only speaks volumes in that the question is off topic. But I’ll bite just to prove a point.

If two Church’s disagree you ask the Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.

:yawn: Still not answering the question…

 

[wmscott]

Before CAF gets too excited I’ll say that this very topic (with thread title as the question being asked) has been posed and discussed to death here. This is one of the, “gotcha” questions when something can’t be found in the Bible.

The silence only speaks volumes in that the question is off topic. But I’ll bite just to prove a point.

If two Church’s disagree you ask the Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.

The reason it is off topic is because of statements brought up earlier that are blatant falsehoods and need to be addressed. If they are not addressed there may be folks who are observing who are looking for answers and my take it as truth, a falsehood can not go unanswered. So it is not a “Gotcha” question but one that needs to be answered. it is OK from time to time for a Protestant to say OK your correct. After all the CC will recognize a truth even if it is not within.

Your statement “If two Church’s disagree you ask the Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.” I like

 

[PRmerger]

The contemplating the mysteries is good (except of two of them for us, the Assumption and her crowned as Queen of the Universe). It can be done without the Rosary however.

I still am unsure as to what your objection is to the Rosary. It can’t be that it is repetitive. Otherwise, to be consistent, you have to object to the Psalms. And you would have to pose an objection to the Holy Angels in heaven who are repeating** day and night** the* Sanctus.*

So what, again, is your objection to the Rosary?

 

[Peter_J]

So I guess silence speaks volumes

You don’t seem particularly silent.

 

[dronald]

:yawn: Still not answering the question…

Your question: “If two people disagree who do they talk to?”

My answer: “The Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.”

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kliska
I agree, and I’m just explaining that is one idea that some protestants hold, the whole “back to the Bible” ideology. And in this case, I believe even Tradition wouldn’t include the rosary dated back to the time of the earliest church. It sometimes boils down to earliest practice for protestants.

Contradictory statement. There are scores of Protestant practices which have no ties to early Christianity:

The Bible-Alone for starters.

 

[PRmerger]

Your question: “If two people disagree who do they talk to?”

My answer: “The Eastern Orthodox Church. They’ll know what to do.”

Which one? Which patriarch?

 

[pocohombre]

I still am unsure as to what your objection is to the Rosary. It can’t be that it is repetitive. Otherwise, to be consistent, you have to object to the Psalms. And you would have to pose an objection to the Holy Angels in heaven who are repeating** day and night** the* Sanctus.*
So what, again, is your objection to the Rosary?

Again, the psalms are apples to oranges. First, it is directed to God. The Rosary primarily is directed to an intermediary, Mary. Secondly, The repetition in Psalms is minute compared to the Rosary. The Rosary is repetitive for repetition sake of a prayer (and helping make a rose for her crown). The Psalms, if repetitive at all, is for musical and poetic effect. It also brings out the pathos of life before a Holy God, and the praise due Him. The psalms are usually laden with doxology, praise, not in hopes of a glorious ending (like the Hail Mary), but full of assurance of a glorious ending ! Don’t see where angels are repetitive, unless you mean the four beasts, in the last day(s),and it may be figurative for “all creation”, as per my earlier post ( #307 ). But no, it may not be the repetition but it is indicative of the bigger problems I have been alluding to: elevation of an intermediary to Christ, even giving her a crown of roses, a call to gain favor, obey, trust, and draw near to the Queen of Heaven, and a drumming in of the precariousness of our position in Christ and His grace and salvation (for we must be in His grace at the last second, the hour of our death, if not all is lost). It lacks the gloriousness of the new creature we are in Christ and that he will finish what He started in us, ala Psalmist doxology…These are my thoughts as asked for, and understand others see it differently.

 

[MethodistEsq]

I appreciate the opportunity to address the issue.

I am extremely leery of approaching a line that might constitute idolatry in any form—even if the intended recipient is the mother of Jesus. I of course am aware of my audience here—the Roman intelligentsia have declared the saying of the rosary and the prayers attached to it as a good thing. This does not assuage my concern in the least. I will grant that the majority of the words of the Ave Maria are in the Bible. I also will point out that they are a private communication between God and one of the most important humans to ever draw breath, delivered by an angel. I’m not entirely certain that I’ve got any business repeating it.

In my capacity as a United Methodist, it is my understanding (and my practice) that the UMC doesn’t particularly endorse requests for intercessory prayer from the living here on Earth to those ‘confirmed’ by Rome as being present in Heaven, which I understand to be a component of elevation to Roman sainthood. I am far more prepared to concede a special place in the faith to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Attempted communication with those who now belong to the Church Triumphant is unnerving, despite what any Roman theory may say. While I’m not Saul and I’m not asking the purported shade of Samuel for military advice, I am also not interested in having to defend myself against an accusation of similar acts.

Take for example a prayer I found earlier this year, A Lawyer’s Prayer to St Thomas More. It is a beautiful prayer, one that strikes me as elegant and comprehensive. I think quite a lot of it, as a matter of fact. I quoted it to a Methodist minister and we agreed to its beauty. That is, until I pointed out that it was to Thomas More, not God. Neither of us were particularly comfortable with that fact. Of course, intercessory prayer by those here for others here is entirely reasonable. I do it nightly for a number of people. The frequent prayer of an unrighteous man availeth something, I hope.

On the other hand, I am not concerned as to the “repetitive prayer” notion. I accept the explanation offered somewhere, perhaps in this thread, that the words of Christ were more targeted towards non-Christian types who essentially prayed a dictionary hoping to find a key word or phrase, much like the Fellowship of the Ring at the entrance at Moria. Besides, we know from the example of the persistent woman that certain repetition of prayer isn’t in vain. Further, I also perceive value in certain meditative practices which allow one to focus the mind on things such as say, the life of Jesus.

As an aside, the seeming Scriptural numerology of the rosary itself is unconvincing to me, but I place little-to-no value on numeric occurrences in Christianity as a whole other than to note that Judaism of the era may have placed value on certain numbers.

However, the foregoing objections might be rendered obsolete if the UMC were to embrace a more Roman interpretation of the Communion of Saints or suddenly acquire a more Marian flavor. This may yet happen; there is an official ecumenical process between the UMC and RCC which might yield some sort of arrangement within my lifetime. One never knows what might result from the process of the Joint Commission for Dialogue Between the Roman Catholic Church and the World Methodist Council.

Again, thanks for the opportunity to address the issue.

 

[pocohombre]

Thanks. and welcome.

 

[pocohombre]

This does not answer the question, just an attempt to avoid the obvious. But to answer your first statement “The one that got it right by the Holy Spirit, why would he need another authority to turn to”, Because Christ Himself instituted that authority to turn to, especially in the matters of conflict with interpretation of Sacred Scripture. I have answered this in post 231 and 273 in detail.

So my question still stands, what happens when two “Christians” read the same scripture and come to two totally different interpretations? We already agree that there is but one truth and that the Holy Spirit would never lie to us. So who is right and who is wrong? who was the Holy Spirit with and who was without? who do the two turn to for the “Authoritative” interpretation?

Jesus said when there is a “dispute” take it to another brother, if not then take it the church. I posted which church of the three ? Shall we take the CC view on the Rosary, or shall we take the Orthodox view or even the Protestant view ? Faith is faith, and a sure fire way of an authoritative referee might be presumptuous. You are right back to faith, which is divine and God given and “elective”, up to the individual, freedom of conscience.