The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[adf417]

To add to Gary Taylor’s great post above, I would also like to offer this option. The Scriptural Rosary.
scripturalrosary.blogspot.com/p/scriptural-rosary.html
Click on each of the mysteries and you will find specific scripture for deeper meditation before each Hail Mary. There are great .mp3’s with these in full rosary form that are wonderful.

Peace!!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

“While praying a scriptural rosary, one reads a short verse or passage from scripture before praying a vocal prayer.”

At some point the prayer recitation, scripture, picture in your mind all merge as one, you may find yourself being a silent observing witness to the Cross, feeling the heat and sand at your feet.

Jesus loves you!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m a sister in Christ, to be clear on my gender. You rely on interpretations that others hand you, instead of searching scripture with prayer and diligence to see if what others have told you are true; again, you start with the assumption that what someone else (the mageisterium) has told you is true and go from there. If you have searched scriptures then you personally have agreed to their interpretation, or else you wouldn’t belong to the RCC. You are in the same situation as I, it is just one removed, with your belief that only certain special people can be lead to truth instead of you being able to find it on you own with the help of the Spirit.

…

Again, you are Roman Catholic for a reason, I’m a protestant for a reason, we obviously are not going to agree on everything.

Kliska-

I was a Protestant (Methodist) and probably for the same reason that you are: namely, I was born into a Protestant family, and I went to church every Sunday with my parents from the time that I was born. I gave my life to the Lord at an early age, and I do not remember a time in my life when I did not believe or consider myself to be a follower of Jesus. How closely I may have been following at various periods of my life will have to wait for another time.

However, when I was older, I began to learn and to reason and to ask questions. Eventually, the Protestant answers to my questions about the history of Christianity and about specific verses of scripture were no longer adequate.

I began to realize that the Catholic Church existed long before the Methodist church and that Catholic explanations of scripture - ALL of scripture - fit together into a unified whole in a way that Protestantism’s interpretations do not.

Now, I realize that at present, you disagree. You think that everything your particular flavor of Protestantism teaches forms a cohesive body of doctrine. And it does as long as you are willing to accept some “overlooking” of certain verses or some “mental gymnastics” necessary to explain others. You’re bristling at that suggestion even now, aren’t you? So, “the” nagging question has not entered your mind - yet.

But my experience, the experience of close personal friends, and the experience of those whose conversion stories I have read (some famous, some not) leads me to the conclusion that eventually, God willing, you will be faced with a question for which you have no answer. But Catholicism does. And this will gnaw away at your Protestant roots until the whole tree topples. But by God’s grace, you will discover that the Catholic Church built by Jesus upon Peter the rock has been here waiting to receive you with open arms all along.

It’s what He intended for you - for all of us - before the creation of the world.

 

[pocohombre]

Kliska-
I was a Protestant (Methodist) and probably for the same reason that you are: namely, I was born into a Protestant family, and I went to church every Sunday with my parents from the time that I was born. I gave my life to the Lord at an early age, and I do not remember a time in my life when I did not believe or consider myself to be a follower of Jesus. How closely I may have been following at various periods of my life will have to wait for another time.
However, when I was older, I began to learn and to reason and to ask questions. Eventually, the Protestant answers to my questions about the history of Christianity and about specific verses of scripture were no longer adequate.
I began to realize that the Catholic Church existed long before the Methodist church and that Catholic explanations of scripture - ALL of scripture - fit together into a unified whole in a way that Protestantism’s interpretations do not.
Now, I realize that at present, you disagree. You think that everything your particular flavor of Protestantism teaches forms a cohesive body of doctrine. And it does as long as you are willing to accept some “overlooking” of certain verses or some “mental gymnastics” necessary to explain others. You’re bristling at that suggestion even now, aren’t you? So, “the” nagging question has not entered your mind - yet.
But my experience, the experience of close personal friends, and the experience of those whose conversion stories I have read (some famous, some not) leads me to the conclusion that eventually, God willing, you will be faced with a question for which you have no answer. But Catholicism does. And this will gnaw away at your Protestant roots until the whole tree topples. But by God’s grace, you will discover that the Catholic Church built by Jesus upon Peter the rock has been here waiting to receive you with open arms all along.
It’s what He intended for you - for all of us - before the creation of the world.

Hi RC. It’s Saturday and there is a blizzard outside, and I thought would pigyback your thoughtful response to Kliska. I would agree that some denominations and people are being drawn back to CC or some of it’s practices. The CC story is very compelling, very powerful. It has had ages to develop her religion and her apparent airtight apologetics. Very appealing rituals also. I now would have to say the opposite is true. Some Catholics are leaving the ranks for Protestantism. Even CC church has adopted some things from Protestantism… As history may have swayed you, the same history sways others to protestantism or orthodoxy… But as we disagree on simple scripture, we also disagree on simple history. Of course simple is the wrong word. I would say it is all purposely obtuse, like the parables. Otherwise the unregenerate might understand and be saved (without regeneration). The conundrum forces a narrow gate to proper understanding, and of course He is the Gate. The need for and the actual personal and glorious encounter with the Creator of the universe, and Lover and Savior of our souls by grace and faith and with assurity is the sole counterpart to the CC draw. Almost like two gospels unfortunately…Anyways, I believe I have testified to to both experiences, to both sides of the aisle. What might be inclusive to both is universal and more powerful than either camp. Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

You rely on interpretations that others hand you, instead of searching scripture with prayer and diligence to see if what others have told you are true; again, you start with the assumption that what someone else (the mageisterium) has told you is true and go from there.

As do you, dear sister. As do you.

Unless you know from some other source that Hebrews, the Gospel of Mark, 3 John, etc etc etc are inspired?

 

[PRmerger]

Some Catholics are leaving the ranks for Protestantism.

I posit that every Catholic who has left the CC has left a Church she did not know. She was poorly catechized, and could not, when pressed, answer any question posed to her which offers a correct explication of Catholic teaching. What she understood she was leaving was not actually the Catholic Church, but her own caricature of the Church.

Oh, and another reason that Catholics leave is not because of doctrine, but because a priest, principal, teacher, fellow parishioner was rude to her.

Oh, and one other reason is because he wants to do some sort of activity (usually involving something below the belt) that the CC has declared to be sinful.

So he church shops for another church that makes him feel his activity is permissible.

Even CC church has adopted some things from Protestantism…

I don’t think anyone would deny that the CC has adopted some things from Protestantism, and ought to continue to do so.

I love the welcoming spirit that is found in the mega-church down the street.

And I love the music that they play at their worship services.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I posit that every Catholic who has left the CC has left a Church she did not know. She was poorly catechized, and could not, when pressed, answer any question posed to her which offers a correct explication of Catholic teaching. What she understood she was leaving was not actually the Catholic Church, but her own caricature of the Church.

Oh, and another reason that Catholics leave is not because of doctrine, but because a priest, principal, teacher, fellow parishioner was rude to her.

Oh, and one other reason is because he wants to do some sort of activity (usually involving something below the belt) that the CC has declared to be sinful.

So he church shops for another church that makes him feel his activity is permissible.

I almost wrote something similar to this, but didn’t really want to get into it with poco. However, you have nailed the reasons.

I think very few people understand Catholic theology correctly and decide to become something else because they disagree with what they fully understand. They leave because they mistakenly believe an inaccurate or incomplete picture of Catholic theology.

Except in the case of moral issues like divorce or contraception in which they do understand the Church’s position, but they simply want to do what the Church prohibits.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, the psalms are apples to oranges. First, it is directed to God. The Rosary primarily is directed to an intermediary, Mary.

So you cannot be objecting to the rosary because it is repetitive, but rather because it is prayer that is directed to Mary.

Where in the bible is prayer to those in heaven forbidden, poco?

Please note that praying to someone and asking for their intercession is not the same as worship. Else you would have to object to your pastor’s permission for prayer chains.

And if you’re okay with asking for someone to pray for you, perhaps your next objection will be to the fact that it’s “dead” people whom we’re asking to intercede for us.

But remember, God is a God of the living, not of the dead. And we know that Abraham, Moses and Elijah are alive in heaven. And therefore we know that those in heaven are alive, not dead.

So there can’t be any problem asking those who are in heaven to pray for us.

So what, again, is your problem with the rosary?

It’s not it’s repetitiveness.
It’s not that it’s asking for intercession.
It’s not that it’s to someone who is not living here on earth…

So…why do you object?

 

[PRmerger]

I also will point out that they are a private communication between God and one of the most important humans to ever draw breath, delivered by an angel. I’m not entirely certain that I’ve got any business repeating it.

I find this paradigm to be a bit curious.

From whence does it come that there are certain verse in Scripture that we ought not have “any business repeating”?

How does a Christian know which verses may be uttered and prayed and ejaculated continuously and which are the ones we have no business repeating?

To wit: Is “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you!” of the former or of the latter?

What about, “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord!”?

Or “My breath is offensive to my wife”?

 

[PRmerger]

I appreciate the opportunity to address the issue.

I am extremely leery of approaching a line that might constitute idolatry in any form—even if the intended recipient is the mother of Jesus. I of course am aware of my audience here—the Roman intelligentsia have declared the saying of the rosary and the prayers attached to it as a good thing. This does not assuage my concern in the least. I will grant that the majority of the words of the Ave Maria are in the Bible. I also will point out that they are a private communication between God and one of the most important humans to ever draw breath, delivered by an angel. I’m not entirely certain that I’ve got any business repeating it.

In my capacity as a United Methodist, it is my understanding (and my practice) that the UMC doesn’t particularly endorse requests for intercessory prayer from the living here on Earth to those ‘confirmed’ by Rome as being present in Heaven, which I understand to be a component of elevation to Roman sainthood. I am far more prepared to concede a special place in the faith to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Attempted communication with those who now belong to the Church Triumphant is unnerving, despite what any Roman theory may say. While I’m not Saul and I’m not asking the purported shade of Samuel for military advice, I am also not interested in having to defend myself against an accusation of similar acts.

Take for example a prayer I found earlier this year, A Lawyer’s Prayer to St Thomas More. It is a beautiful prayer, one that strikes me as elegant and comprehensive. I think quite a lot of it, as a matter of fact. I quoted it to a Methodist minister and we agreed to its beauty. That is, until I pointed out that it was to Thomas More, not God. Neither of us were particularly comfortable with that fact. Of course, intercessory prayer by those here for others here is entirely reasonable. I do it nightly for a number of people. The frequent prayer of an unrighteous man availeth something, I hope.

On the other hand, I am not concerned as to the “repetitive prayer” notion. I accept the explanation offered somewhere, perhaps in this thread, that the words of Christ were more targeted towards non-Christian types who essentially prayed a dictionary hoping to find a key word or phrase, much like the Fellowship of the Ring at the entrance at Moria. Besides, we know from the example of the persistent woman that certain repetition of prayer isn’t in vain. Further, I also perceive value in certain meditative practices which allow one to focus the mind on things such as say, the life of Jesus.

As an aside, the seeming Scriptural numerology of the rosary itself is unconvincing to me, but I place little-to-no value on numeric occurrences in Christianity as a whole other than to note that Judaism of the era may have placed value on certain numbers.

However, the foregoing objections might be rendered obsolete if the UMC were to embrace a more Roman interpretation of the Communion of Saints or suddenly acquire a more Marian flavor. This may yet happen; there is an official ecumenical process between the UMC and RCC which might yield some sort of arrangement within my lifetime. One never knows what might result from the process of the Joint Commission for Dialogue Between the Roman Catholic Church and the World Methodist Council.

Again, thanks for the opportunity to address the issue.

And, welcome to the CAFS!!

 

[Kliska]

As do you, dear sister. As do you.

Umm… no. It is RC doctrine that lay people are to turn to the magisterium and the leaders of the RCC to interpret scripture for the lay people, is it not?

Unless you know from some other source that Hebrews, the Gospel of Mark, 3 John, etc etc etc are inspired?

This is beating a dead horse that protestants aren’t buying… neither are the Orthodox.

 

[PRmerger]

Umm… no. It is RC doctrine that lay people are to turn to the magisterium and the leaders of the RCC to interpret scripture for the lay people, is it not?

No one is denying that. :nope:

This is beating a dead horse that protestants aren’t buying… neither are the Orthodox.

The trenchant point is that you, while objecting to Catholics submitting to the authority of the CC, also…submit to the authority of the CC.

 

[Kliska]

No one is denying that. :nope:

And that is a difference between you and I.

The trenchant point is that you, while objecting to Catholics submitting to the authority of the CC, also…submit to the authority of the CC.

Last I checked what the RCC considers cannon is not the same as what I consider cannon, so… no. The Orthodox have what they consider cannon as well. There is no “one” cannon.

 

[pocohombre]

I posit that every Catholic who has left the CC has left a Church she did not know. She was poorly catechized, and could not, when pressed, answer any question posed to her which offers a correct explication of Catholic teaching. What she understood she was leaving was not actually the Catholic Church, but her own caricature of the Church.
Oh, and another reason that Catholics leave is not because of doctrine, but because a priest, principal, teacher, fellow parishioner was rude to her.
Oh, and one other reason is because he wants to do some sort of activity (usually involving something below the belt) that the CC has declared to be sinful.
So he church shops for another church that makes him feel his activity is permissible.

Totally possible. I belted out a laugh with your with your below the belt comment. Actually I thought most priests who leave the priesthood remain Catholic, not sure. Anyways, many reformers were Catholic once, very well catechized, even teachers and monks…There is also vice-versa. Those that leave Protestantism were probably never born again, never experienced Christ personally, though very religious. The reason for departure on both sides is a wide spectrum, and not as narrow as you suggest.

I don’t think anyone would deny that the CC has adopted some things from Protestantism, and ought to continue to do so.
I love the welcoming spirit that is found in the mega-church down the street.
And I love the music that they play at their worship services.

Whew, glad you agree cause I couldn’t think of any specifics when I first posted .Now I am thinking thinking about bible studies, and a bible in every home. That wasn’t always so in the last few centuries in CC. Maybe Chrarismatic stuff also.

 

[pocohombre]

So you cannot be objecting to the rosary because it is repetitive, but rather because it is prayer that is directed to Mary.

I covered the objections several times now.

Where in the bible is prayer to those in heaven forbidden, poco?

You know as I looked I not only could I not find where it is forbidden, but I couldn’t find where it is allowed either. The only thing directly disallowed is expecting an answer back, as in conjuring them.

Please note that praying to someone and asking for their intercession is not the same as worship. Else you would have to object to your pastor’s permission for prayer chains.

Correctomundo.

And if you’re okay with asking for someone to pray for you, perhaps your next objection will be to the fact that it’s “dead” people whom we’re asking to intercede for us.

Pretty much .

But remember, God is a God of the living, not of the dead. And we know that Abraham, Moses and Elijah are alive in heaven. And therefore we know that those in heaven are alive, not dead.

News flash! Nobody is dead on the other side, whether in heaven of hell.They are all alive (but not well).

So there can’t be any problem asking those who are in heaven to pray for us.

We are disciples and are to be copy cats therefore of our spiritual fathers and forefathers. So to be true to my pastor and his, to some reformers, to the apostles, to Isaiah, David, Moses, and Father Abraham may I ask to be led to seek out the Father, even the Godhead in prayer.

It’s not it’s repetitiveness.

Yes

It’s not that it’s asking for intercession.

No ( be more specific)

It’s not that it’s to someone who is not living here on earth…

Yes

 

[GaryTaylor]

and a bible in every home. That wasn’t always so in the last few centuries in CC. Maybe Chrarismatic stuff also.

That gets back to the “required” conversation. The Pope didn’t speak infallibly about the mandatory Bible in the home. It then followed that one was only “required” to attend confession once a year…which was * to confess the 51 missed Sunday scripture teachings/mass and holy days of obligation. Just in time for Christmas. Yes we have had a couple generations of those blessed by the Holy Spirit and who insist the Church should listen to them on matters of God.

Now today, we are back to “poor, dirty and missionary” still struggling with “required” though. And Jesus still loves us all and we are still all in the middle of this love story. Prevail …He said… a word not to be taken lightly.*

 

[adf417]

This is beating a dead horse that protestants aren’t buying… neither are the Orthodox.

I know many protestants buying this horse. A few have told me “its the best argument the Catholic Church has for holding the fullness of truth”.

Peace!!!

 

[Kliska]

I know many protestants buying this horse. A few have told me “its the best argument the Catholic Church has for holding the fullness of truth”.

Peace!!!

Yeahhh… They must run in different circles.

Grace and Peace!

 

[Peter_J]

Umm… no. It is RC doctrine that lay people are to turn to the magisterium and the leaders of the RCC to interpret scripture for the lay people, is it not?

Yes. However, we nevertheless need to use our own will and intellect to decide to become Catholic in the first place – or to remain Catholic in my case, since I’m cradle Catholic.

If you’ve ever read Rome Sweet Home, you know what I’m talking about.

 

[Peter_J]

The reason for departure on both sides is a wide spectrum, and not as narrow as you suggest.

I’m glad you think so. Honestly, I’ve gotten so tired of the caricatures (whether spoken by Catholics or by protestants) that “Converts to protestantism are like this, but converts to Catholicism are like that.”