The Rosary

[jmj1984]

I cannot read a Saint’s mind, but I can assure you that he would recite mysteries that are perfectly fine and any good Catholic should have no problem with. And yes, I have seen many Dominicans pray the Luminous Mysteries. If they were of any problem, trust me, his order wouldn’t stand for it. The Luminous Mysteries are all scriptural and part of the deposit of faith. Trust me, if they were of any problem, Mother Angelica and the Nuns at Our Lady of Angels wouldn’t use them. Popes have added to the Rosary before. So even the Rosary you recite now has been added to since it was revealed to Saint Dominic. Although it is not the most trustable site, Wikipedia has some good sources on the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary

So you can’t, so you should stop making claims regarding what a saint would or wouldn’t do then.

Many dominicans do not use the Domincian rite and as far as I know the province in the UK has entirely abandoned it, does this mean that this what St Dominic wanted or that it is acceptable? I don’t think so. Just because the dominicans or any religious order does or does not do something does not make it wrong or right, even if it is part of their patrimony. Individual dominicans may well recite the rosary with the added luminous mysteries but none of their confraternities make it a requirement whereas reciting the rest of the rosary is a requirement in for example the Rosary Confraternity. Even Pope John Paul II did not claim to be adding to what constituted a rosary and made it clear that the additional 5 decades were only optional. To claim that the luminous mysteries are part of the depost of faith strays from the merely bizzare into absurdity, the rosary itself is not part of the deposit of faith so how could the mysteries be? If you mean that the events on which the mysteries are based is part of the deposit of faith then I have no dispute, but so are a million other things, so is every event included in the gospels. Does that mean they are all appropriate for the rosary? No, of course not.

As for the 15 mysteries, I’m afraid they are as laid down by St Dominic, any Dominican would be able to tell you that.

John Paul II wasn’t a traditionalist in the strictest sense of the word, but he was traditional and wouldn’t stand for it if someone was trying to change something that shouldn’t be changed. For instance, when it was brought up that there should just be a prayer of absolution instead of actually going to confession, he was on the side of traditionalism and practicality, saying that it shouldn’t be changed and a prayer of absolution should only be used in emergencies like it is being used now.

Bl John Paul II wasn’t a traditionalist, full stop. He was a conservative, as his biographers and those who knew well would tell you. Michael Davies, the founders of the FSSP and the ICSKP or even Archbishop Lefebvre were traditionalists, Bl John Paul II held positions markedly different from theirs.

The situation you have described is what any orthodox pope would do, the church has no authority to change sacraments, something those who proposed otherwise should have known.

 

[jmj1984]

jmj1984, are you actually saying that you will not pray the Luminous Mysteries because they are a relatively new addition to the Rosary? The Mysteries of the Rosary are to bring us in communion with Jesus - as we pray the different Mysteries we are traveling with Him through His life. The Luminous Mysteries added in 2002 by Pope John Paul II were meant to aid us in this travel. The Luminous Mysteries focus on the public life of Jesus.

I am well aware of what they are and why they were added, but I fail to see their necessity. Some of the mysteries are simply pointless, what need is their for the institution of the eucharist when one has the cruxificion? I find them Vacuous and devoid of any substance. That however is my personal opinion.

On a more empirical level I believe that a devotion such as the Rosary that is so important to the life of the church should be left well alone, if neither our Lady nor anyone since saw fit to change the mysteries then why should they be changed? Aside from this it also causes problems with the comparison between the Rosary and the psalms, as there are 150 psalms there should be 150 hail marys. St Louis de Montfort made much of this, as well as the fact that there were three sets of mysteries and so on, adding an extra 5 ruins this symbology.

Lastly it is also unhelpful, it appears in the post 60’s period that anything and everything can change from the breviary to prayers, it appears that nothing can be left alone, everything must be changed, everything must be brought up to date or improved. This attitude is unhelpful and does a grave injustice to catholic tradition.

I have heard people on CAF say they refuse to pray the Fatima Prayer between decades - even though it was a specific request of Our Blessed Mother that it be added - because it is not part of the Traditional Rosary. Wow!

I would never do that. Who are we to say that Our Lady cannot change her psalter? However that is Our Lady, not a Pope.

 

[archangel04]

I wouldn’t consider it spooky music. I would consider the music as angelic, meditative calming music. This is spooky music: youtube.com/watch?v=gMLPnk9-6MM

A true masterpiece, I am huge fan of horror movies. Now back to the original topic. BTW I am in the same boat I tend to get bored with the Rosary but i still try/

 

[Padraig1972]

(After i decided last week that i wish to become a Lay Dominican), i have begun praying the rosary after the old model-form. But i do still pray the Luminous mysteries aside when the daily mystery has been done on thursdays.

Why? Because the Luminous Mysteries has been important for my conversion process and they have had a very good impact on. But now, tradition fist (the Luminous ones, later on thursdays)

 

[odile53]

@ TeutonicKnight: The EWTN video I’m talking about is the very same one that you see on TV with Mother Angelica praying with the nuns in the chapel. You could then solve your time issues and pray with what you already like.

 

[George_F]

SSPX,WE dont,Only the Joyful,Sowerfull and the Glorious Mysteries.

• look in here for the CD if you like.-Rosaries | EWTN Religious Catalogue

*These help me stay focused while praying.-http://www.rosary-center.org/joyful.htm
the luminous are on this if you like.
navagate from the arrow on the bottom.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Aside from this it also causes problems with the comparison between the Rosary and the psalms, as there are 150 psalms there should be 150 hail marys. St Louis de Montfort made much of this, as well as the fact that there were three sets of mysteries and so on, adding an extra 5 ruins this symbology.

I have heard this many times.

My question is, I have always prayed, and everyone else I have ever known has done it the same way, 3 Hail Mary’s in the begining of a rosary, for the increase of faith, hope & charity. Which makes 53 Hail Mary’s for one decade and 159 if one prayed the complete rosary. So how can one use the justification that there should be 150 Hail Mary’s because there is 150 Psalms, when in reality, there are 159?

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

I have heard this many times.

My question is, I have always prayed, and everyone else I have ever known has done it the same way, 3 Hail Mary’s in the begining of a rosary, for the increase of faith, hope & charity. Which makes 53 Hail Mary’s for one decade and 159 if one prayed the complete rosary. So how can one use the justification that there should be 150 Hail Mary’s because there is 150 Psalms, when in reality, there are 159?

Ha. You have obviously been in this argument more than once, as you seem to know exactly what to say. I’ve never heard of anyone not using the Luminous Mysteries because they deem them “unimportant” and “useless” which is what he said one way or another. The Luminous Mysteries are some of the most important. How on earth is meditating on the Eucharist a waste of time? Doesn’t he realize he’s in the Last Supper and receives arguably the most important sacrament every week? If he does than why would meditating on the Institution of the Eucharist be a waste of anyone’s time? I honestly have more of a hard time meditating on some of the Glorious and Joyful Mysteries, as I quickly run out of things to meditate on about them and my mind accidentally wanders quite a bit. On the Luminous this almost never happens. My only regret is that I only get to meditate on them once a week.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

I would never do that. Who are we to say that Our Lady cannot change her psalter? However that is Our Lady, not a Pope.

Well, here’s the funny thing about that: The Pope happens to be the Vicar of Christ. He is the physical authority of the Church. What he says about Theology and Sacramentals goes. This is because he is guided by the Holy Spirit. Trust me, if Mary had a problem with Blessed John Paul the Great adding five more mysteries, she would take it up with the Holy Spirit.

 

[MissRose73]

I always include the Fatima invocation after each mystery is prayed upon. Yes I do pray the Luminous Mysteries too. Some people do other invocations after the Fatima one of various kinds too, but its hard to keep track of them of all.

 

[zab]

On a more empirical level I believe that a devotion such as the Rosary that is so important to the life of the church should be left well alone, if neither our Lady nor anyone since saw fit to change the mysteries then why should they be changed?
I would never do that… Who are we to say that Our Lady cannot change her psalter? However that is Our Lady, not a Pope.

We should remember that Blessed Pope John Paul II was very devoted to Our Lady. His motto was “Totus Tuus” (totally yours) expressing his personal consecration to Mary. His coat of arms had the letter M for the Virgin Mary. He has said that it was a mother’s hand that guided the bullet at his attempted assasination that occurred on the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima. Pope John Paul II gave one of the bullets to the bishop in charge of the shrine at Fatima and today the bullet remains in the crown of the statue of the Blessed Virgin there. Blessed John Paul II was very close to Our Lady. I can’t help but believe that he was inspired to give us these beautiful Luminous Mysteries.

When our church was built in 1953, stained glass windows with the 15 decades of the rosary were installed. Three years ago, when our church was restored/renovated we had the five Luminous Mysteries and a window with Pope John Paul II installed separating the Nave from the vestibule.

 

[Jim_Reid]

Thank you for providing the link. I prayed the Rosary for the first time in several months.

 

[jmj1984]

I have heard this many times.

My question is, I have always prayed, and everyone else I have ever known has done it the same way, 3 Hail Mary’s in the begining of a rosary, for the increase of faith, hope & charity. Which makes 53 Hail Mary’s for one decade and 159 if one prayed the complete rosary. So how can one use the justification that there should be 150 Hail Mary’s because there is 150 Psalms, when in reality, there are 159?

I’ll answer that with a Quote from St Louis de Montfort

In the methods he gives to say the Rosary he states

'O Blessed Virgin Mary, we offer you this apostles creed so as to honour the faith you had on earth and to ask us to share in the same faith.
O Lord we offer you this Our Father to adore you in Your oneness and to recognise you as the First Cause and Last End of things.
Most Holy Trinity, we offer you these three Hail marys to thank You for all the graces that You have given to Mary and all the graces you have given us through her intercession’

So we can see the three hail Marys do not undermine the symbology of the Rosary as the Angelic Psalter. It should also be pointed that 159 or 153 is still 150 not 209, the symbology remains intact.

As for praying three hail marys at the beginning of each decade I have never met anyone who has said this nor is it mentioned in any literature I have read and certainly not by St Louis de Montfort so I confess that I do not believe this to be common. It is a pious practice but it cannot be obligatory just as the luminous mysteries cannot be and as in fact Bl John Paul II made clear they are not

'*The psalter or Rosary of our Lady is divided into three chaplets of five decades each, for the following purposes:
1)To honour the three persons of the Holy trinity
2)To honour the Life, Death, and Glory of Jesus Christ
3)To imitate the Church Triumphant, to help the church militant, and to comfort the Church suffering

Also to imitate the three parts of the Psalter
a)The first being for the purgative life
b)The second for the illuminative life
c) and the third for the unitive life

To fill us with graces during life, peace at death, and glory in eternity’ (The Angelic psalter, The Secret of the Rosary)*

It is not therefore just the 150 that is an important number it is the fact that three are 3 sets of mysteries. Indeed the Rosary is filled with symbology and added another set of 5 mysteries distorts this in countless ways.

 

[jmj1984]

Well, here’s the funny thing about that: The Pope happens to be the Vicar of Christ. He is the physical authority of the Church. What he says about Theology and Sacramentals goes. This is because he is guided by the Holy Spirit. Trust me, if Mary had a problem with Blessed John Paul the Great adding five more mysteries, she would take it up with the Holy Spirit.

Except that the Rosary is neither theology nor Sacramentals, so where you are going with this I don’t know

It should also be pointed out that the sweeping statement 'What he says about theology and sacramentals goes…’ is neither accurate nor helpful. The Pope cannot
1)Contradict previous infallible teaching whether it be declared by a council or a pope
2)Change the matter or form of a sacrament where this sacrament is instituted in specios (that is specifically) e.g he could not declare that we can use cakes for mass and change the words of institution to something that means something entirely different from what Christ says in the gospel’s.
3)Contradict natural law
4)Contradict divine law
5)Expound new doctrines that are not found in the deposit of faith
6)Contradict Holy Scripture
7)Contradict the Truth of the Sacraments
8)Command something against the articles of Faith

The Popes power is not unlimited it, is is supreme not absolute. These limitations on Papal power have long been recognised and were pointed out again by Bl Cardinal Newman in a letter he wrote which can be read here newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section4.html

You also appear to be confusing impeccability with infallibility, there are very very narrow circumstances in which a Pope is infallible, adding to the mysteries of the Rosary is not one of them. What confuses me is that Bl Pope John Paul II did not make this claim, so why do you see fit to put words in his mouth and make the claim for him?

 

[jmj1984]

We should remember that Blessed Pope John Paul II was very devoted to Our Lady. His motto was “Totus Tuus” (totally yours) expressing his personal consecration to Mary. His coat of arms had the letter M for the Virgin Mary. He has said that it was a mother’s hand that guided the bullet at his attempted assasination that occurred on the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima. Pope John Paul II gave one of the bullets to the bishop in charge of the shrine at Fatima and today the bullet remains in the crown of the statue of the Blessed Virgin there. Blessed John Paul II was very close to Our Lady. I can’t help but believe that he was inspired to give us these beautiful Luminous Mysteries.

When our church was built in 1953, stained glass windows with the 15 decades of the rosary were installed. Three years ago, when our church was restored/renovated we had the five Luminous Mysteries and a window with Pope John Paul II installed separating the Nave from the vestibule.

I know well that he was devoted to Our Lady which is why I am even more confused that he saw fit to add to the Rosary. Regardless you are entitled to hold your opinion but that does not change the facts, namely that the Rosary consists of 15 decades, another 5 may be added but this is optional.

 

[zab]

The Rosary was given to us at a time when the average person did not have access to read the psalter. It was a simple method to let the common people meditate on the life of Christ. Now Pope John Paul II brought us into the new millinium. It is a time when almost everyone has access to read the Scriptures. The Rosary is still a wonderful method of prayer and the time was right to include another section of Christ’s life for our meditation. Is it obligatory that we pray the Luminous Mysteries? Not any more than it is obligatory to pray any of the Rosary. But these new mysteries are a wonderful gift to those of us who do pray the Rosary.

 

[jmj1984]

The Rosary was given to us at a time when the average person did not have access to read the psalter. It was a simple method to let the common people meditate on the life of Christ. Now Pope John Paul II brought us into the new millinium. It is a time when almost everyone has access to read the Scriptures. The Rosary is still a wonderful method of prayer and the time was right to include another section of Christ’s life for our meditation. Is it obligatory that we pray the Luminous Mysteries? Not any more than it is obligatory to pray any of the Rosary. But these new mysteries are a wonderful gift to those of us who do pray the Rosary.

Each to their own, I will certainly not be praying them but nor am I going to go around telling people they shouldnt pray them.

 

[zab]

Each to their own, I will certainly not be praying them but nor am I going to go around telling people they shouldnt pray them.

Fair enough.

 

[zab]

I know well that he was devoted to Our Lady which is why I am even more confused that he saw fit to add to the Rosary.

Knowing his devotion to Our Lady, and her special love for him in guiding the deadly bullet, I think it is possible that he was inspired by God (perhaps even directed by Our Lady )to do so.

 

[jmj1984]

Knowing his devotion to Our Lady, and her special love for him in guiding the deadly bullet, I think it is possible that he was inspired by God (perhaps even directed by Our Lady )to do so.

But he never made such a claim, so it seems imprudent to do so especially as even if someone makes such a claim the church seeks proof and in this case he has not even made such a claim.