The Russiain Orthodox Church and Fatima

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SteveVH said:
It was the communists that were intended to be conquered though, not the Russian Orthodox Church. In fact, I remember as a child praying for the Russian Orthodox for the simple reason that the Church was under such extreme oppression from the communists. We’re on your side, okay?
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So the conversion of Russia spoken of at Fatima was a conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy? Russia never ceased being Orthodox despite the communists best efforts.
 
Seraphim73 said:
So the conversion of Russia spoken of at Fatima was a conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy? Russia never ceased being Orthodox despite the communists best efforts.
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I am glad you joined the discussion Seraphim73 so the answers to my questions are becoming more clear. I appreciate the discussion from both sides.
 
Seraphim73 said:
So the conversion of Russia spoken of at Fatima was a conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy? Russia never ceased being Orthodox despite the communists best efforts.
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Spiritual but not religious (25%)
Atheist and non-religious (13%)
Undecided (5.0%)
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and i also see that much of the leadership was atheist and there was little freedom of religion.
 
If Italy had spent decades under communist oppression and had millions upon millions of Catholics in the country martyred you might be a little defensive too.
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fascist, not communist. and leonine prayers said “to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia”, not, as is sometimes said, “for the conversion of Russia” were originally said for italy.
Check out this magazine cover from the early 90’s. It’s from an issue of 30 Days magazine, a Catholic publication.
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If you can’t make out the cover it’s a picture of the pope leading an army of priests and religious to realize their dream, to “conquer Holy Mother Russia”! And that’s exactly how the Orthodox felt when Catholic and Protestant missionaries flooded the country after the fall of communism. So whether you’re “out to get” us or not that’s certainly the impression the Russians got and it persists to this day and talk of Fatima and the conversion of Russia doesn’t help that impression.
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i do not think that is the official catholic position.
Don’t proselytize; respect others’ beliefs. “We can inspire others through witness so that one grows together in communicating. But the worst thing of all is religious proselytism, which paralyzes: ‘I am talking with you in order to persuade you,’ No. Each person dialogues, starting with his and her own identity. The church grows by attraction, not proselytizing,” the pope(francis) said.
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spread the gospel at all times, when necessary, use words. - st francis of assisi
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and some church documents,
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vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html
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vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
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This is the official catholic position.
 
Seraphim73 said:
If Italy had spent decades under communist oppression and had millions upon millions of Catholics in the country martyred you might be a little defensive too. Check out this magazine cover from the early 90’s. It’s from an issue of 30 Days magazine, a Catholic publication.*

http://orthodoxinfo.com/images/readyset.jpg
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It has been pointed out on these threads, every so often, that catholic.com ≠ Catholicism. In like manner, I want to point out to you that 30 Days ≠ Catholicism.
 
Seraphim73 said:
I think a more apt analogy would be the idea that we should consecrate Italy and Vatican City to Mary and pray for the conversion of the Pope. 😉
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Well, the Pope’s probably Christian, but Italy and Vatican City?

Just kidding.
 
SteveVH said:
This seems to me to be selective reasoning from a defensive posture. I don’t think Mary intended, nor does anyone that I know who was praying for the conversion of Russia pray to convert the Russian Orthodox. The prayers were for the conversion of the atheistic communist state. I know that was the case when I was praying for the conversion of Russia. If the conversion was to happen through the Russian Orthodox Church, great. There is no reason for anyone to walk around with a chip on their shoulder. The Catholic Church is not out to get the Orthodox. 🙂

Peace.

Steve
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AMEN, A chip on their shoulder or just trying to stir up trouble! God Bless, Memaw
 
Jack007 said:
precisely.
this was what i explained in previous posts.
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Jack007 said:
fascist, not communist. and leonine prayers said “to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia”, not, as is sometimes said, “for the conversion of Russia” were originally said for italy.

i do not think that is the official catholic position.

This is the official catholic position.
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That is such a narrow view of reality. I know the Catholic Church has official positions on practically every subject you can imagine but that is not the case with all of the Christian world. Your average, everyday Orthodox in Russia is not scouring the Vatican website looking for the official position on this or that. They go by what they actually experience in their lives. And what they actually experienced in real life was a flood of foreign missionaries invading their country immediately after throwing off the yoke of communism and trying to engage in sheep stealing and leading people away from the Russian Church.
 
Most of the people on this board are from Western countries. We for the most part don’t have the foggiest idea what it’s like to suffer for Christ. The worst we have to deal with is maybe skipping a hamburger on Friday. Would we really cling to Him if our priests were being pulled out of the parish during the liturgy and shot dead or if our family members were being sent to Siberia to die in the gulags or if we watched large groups of Christians being forced to dig their own mass grave before they were all executed? Think again about what I said earlier. There were more Christians killed by the communist in the Soviet Union than in the entire history of Christianity combined. So step back and try to put yourselves in their shoes before you make judgments about so called chips on the shoulder or trouble making.
 
Jack007 said:
and i also see that much of the leadership was atheist and there was little freedom of religion.
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The salient word in that quote is “was”, that is in the past tence.

Communism in Russia has been powerless for about 20 years now and the Russian Orthodox church has a made a remarkable recovery. I am Russian Orthodox myself and I feel somewhat insulted by talk of the ‘conversion’ of Russia. Russia is Christian and in no need of ‘conversion’’.
 
andrewstx said:
The salient word in that quote is “was”, that is in the past tence.

Communism in Russia has been powerless for about 20 years now and the Russian Orthodox church has a made a remarkable recovery. I am Russian Orthodox myself and I feel somewhat insulted by talk of the ‘conversion’ of Russia. Russia is Christian and in no need of ‘conversion’’.
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Well then you’re just a trouble maker or you have a chip on your shoulder…:cool:
 
The salient word in that quote is “was”, that is in the past tence.Communism in Russia has been powerless for about 20 years now and the Russian Orthodox church has a made a remarkable recovery
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Yes. devotees of fatima believe that their prayers helped to make this a ‘was’ instead of ‘is’.
. I am Russian Orthodox myself and I feel somewhat insulted by talk of the ‘conversion’ of Russia. Russia is Christian and in no need of ‘conversion’.
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I have put the official catholic position in post #24 .
 
Jack007 said:
i thought pope francis consecrated vatican to someone?
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To St. Michael, yes. Pope Emeritus Benedict was also present at the consecration.

Back to the topic of the thread…I think its pretty safe to say that 99.9% of Catholics see the “errors of Russia” as referring to atheist communism. The Russian State, under the Soviets, did its best to “spread its errors”. The fact that many Catholics were and are ignorant of Russian Orthodoxy, its history, and the Catholic Church’s official position on Orthodoxy is unfortunate. That being said, I’ve seen some pretty nasty polemics against Catholicism from Orthodox sources - even from Orthodox bishops (think of the open letter to Pope Francis from the two Greek Metropolitans not too long ago…). My point being, the views of individual Catholics or Orthodox Christians aren’t necessarily shared by their brethren.
 
Seraphim73 said:
So the conversion of Russia spoken of at Fatima was a conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy? Russia never ceased being Orthodox despite the communists best efforts.
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We don’t view the Orthodox, apparently, as the Orthodox view us. Yes, we prayed for the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, and for an end to oppression of Christianity in general.

Do you believe that we believe that Mary asked us to pray for the conversion of the Russian Orthodox? If that were the case then she should have asked us to pray for the conversion of the Greek Orthodox and all other Orthodox Churches as well, yes?

While we may pray for healing from the wounds to unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, we do not pray for your conversion. We consider you the second lung, remember? Even if you do not. 🙂

Peace.

Steve
 
Seraphim73 said:
Most of the people on this board are from Western countries. We for the most part don’t have the foggiest idea what it’s like to suffer for Christ. The worst we have to deal with is maybe skipping a hamburger on Friday. Would we really cling to Him if our priests were being pulled out of the parish during the liturgy and shot dead or if our family members were being sent to Siberia to die in the gulags or if we watched large groups of Christians being forced to dig their own mass grave before they were all executed? Think again about what I said earlier. There were more Christians killed by the communist in the Soviet Union than in the entire history of Christianity combined. So step back and try to put yourselves in their shoes before you make judgments about so called chips on the shoulder or trouble making.
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Which is exactly why we were praying for your Church. Sheesh. 🤷

I am truly amazed at this view point and I mean that seriously. Either that, or I have been completely confused as to the intention of my prayers and those that prayed with me.

In any case, the last thing I would ever want to do is to offend you or any other Orthodox. With the attitudes that are prevalent here I think it best that I exit this thread.

Peace.

Steve
 
Thanks for your posts everyone. I think I am clear on my questions now. I am a convert to the Catholic faith so I am still learning about these things.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Do you not even understand how condescending that is? 🤷
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I wasn’t talking about the Russian Orthodox Church, I was referring to some of the posts. There was nothing wrong in praying for the conversion of Russia and we should still be doing that. Just as there is nothing wrong in praying for the conversion of terrorists today so they don’t persecute their people. God Bless, Memaw
 
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