The Sabbath and Sunday

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CutlerB

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Hi there everyone!

I recently met a friend of mine, and he told me he was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. We talked a lot and it was really interesting. I asked him what the differences were, as I didn’t really know anything about them. He said the main difference was about the Sabbath.

I did some research into it here on catholic.com and read the tracts, but somehow I just don’t get it. We’re in discussion about the meaning of the Sabbath (which I am not terribly well versed with) and why the Church has Mass on Sunday. he keeps saying that he just doesn’t see any scriptural evidence of that, and all the things that were mentioned in the Catholic.com material don’t really seem to get through. In fact, now I’m not quite sure if I understand them myself. Can anybody give me some help with this?

Specifically, I am looking for information on these questions:
  1. What’s the significance of Jesus appearing to the Apostles on Sunday, etc.? That doesn’t diminish the importance of the Sabbath, does it?
  2. Does the Church in any way still honour the Sabbath as it was earlier?
  3. Has the Sabbath been “moved” or “replaced”, if so, by what authority and reason?
I’d be glad for any help concerning the general matter and those three questions.

Thank you!
 
CutlerB said:
Hi there everyone!

I recently met a friend of mine, and he told me he was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. We talked a lot and it was really interesting. I asked him what the differences were, as I didn’t really know anything about them. He said the main difference was about the Sabbath.

I did some research into it here on catholic.com and read the tracts, but somehow I just don’t get it. We’re in discussion about the meaning of the Sabbath (which I am not terribly well versed with) and why the Church has Mass on Sunday. he keeps saying that he just doesn’t see any scriptural evidence of that, and all the things that were mentioned in the Catholic.com material don’t really seem to get through. In fact, now I’m not quite sure if I understand them myself. Can anybody give me some help with this?

Specifically, I am looking for information on these questions:
  1. What’s the significance of Jesus appearing to the Apostles on Sunday, etc.? That doesn’t diminish the importance of the Sabbath, does it?
  2. Does the Church in any way still honour the Sabbath as it was earlier?
  3. Has the Sabbath been “moved” or “replaced”, if so, by what authority and reason?
I’d be glad for any help concerning the general matter and those three questions.

Thank you!
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The way I got it from my Catholic learning experience was this way:
The Sabbath was certainly on Saturday, as was well known. We celebrate Sunday as The Lord’s day, because that is the day of the Ascension, 3 days (according to the Jewish day, which ended at sunset) after the crucifixion, and as “the first day of the week.” I’m not sure if the Church still celebrates the Sabbath officially, but I think we treat Sunday as the Sabbath day, because, of course, of the Ascension. However, Saturday is the “Sabbath.” Perhaps the issue is that Adventists don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus? That may be the whole problem.
 
JNdoum said:
The way I got it from my Catholic learning experience was this way:
The Sabbath was certainly on Saturday, as was well known. We celebrate Sunday as The Lord’s day, because that is the day of the Ascension, 3 days (according to the Jewish day, which ended at sunset) after the crucifixion, and as “the first day of the week.” I’m not sure if the Church still celebrates the Sabbath officially, but I think we treat Sunday as the Sabbath day, because, of course, of the Ascension. However, Saturday is the “Sabbath.” Perhaps the issue is that Adventists don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus? That may be the whole problem.
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As far as I know, Adventists do believe in the Trinity. Yet, by what authority or for which reason could the Church institute Sunday instead of Saturday?
 
CutlerB said:
Yet, by what authority or for which reason could the Church institute Sunday instead of Saturday?
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By the power granted her to bind and loose heaven itself (a power which implies infallibility, BTW).

Here’s a thought. If God had wanted Christians to continue to worship on the Sabbath, why didn’t Jesus rise on Saturday rather than Sunday? It’s so obvious simply from a psychological standpoint that Christians would want to worship Jesus on the day he rose, not on a day he was dead. So why didn’t Jesus rise on the Sabbath?
 
snarflemike said:
By the power granted her to bind and loose heaven itself (a power which implies infallibility, BTW).

Here’s a thought. If God had wanted Christians to continue to worship on the Sabbath, why didn’t Jesus rise on Saturday rather than Sunday? It’s so obvious simply from a psychological standpoint that Christians would want to worship Jesus on the day he rose, not on a day he was dead. So why didn’t Jesus rise on the Sabbath?
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It said that too, but somehow it didn’t really bear any fruit. To be honest, I do find the point a bit weak. To me it feels a bit desperate, like saying: “Well, it doesn’t say the opposite, either. It must simply mean this.”

But the Church could not change a law of God, could she? By that, she’d place herself higher than Him.
 
CutlerB said:
Hi there everyone!

I recently met a friend of mine, and he told me he was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. We talked a lot and it was really interesting. I asked him what the differences were, as I didn’t really know anything about them. He said the main difference was about the Sabbath.

I did some research into it here on catholic.com and read the tracts, but somehow I just don’t get it. We’re in discussion about the meaning of the Sabbath (which I am not terribly well versed with) and why the Church has Mass on Sunday. he keeps saying that he just doesn’t see any scriptural evidence of that, and all the things that were mentioned in the Catholic.com material don’t really seem to get through. In fact, now I’m not quite sure if I understand them myself. Can anybody give me some help with this?

Specifically, I am looking for information on these questions:
  1. What’s the significance of Jesus appearing to the Apostles on Sunday, etc.? That doesn’t diminish the importance of the Sabbath, does it?
  2. Does the Church in any way still honour the Sabbath as it was earlier?
  3. Has the Sabbath been “moved” or “replaced”, if so, by what authority and reason?
I’d be glad for any help concerning the general matter and those three questions.

Thank you!
Click to expand...
A great website to check out is www.scripturecatholic.com Here some verses, they provide on Sunday Worship

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.
 
hawkeye125646 said:
A great website to check out is www.scripturecatholic.com Here some verses, they provide on Sunday Worship

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.
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I’ve come across those too, and the responses to them were as follows.

Acts 20:7 — “Breaking bread can also refer to a normal supper (Acts 2:42,46)”

1 Cor 16:2 — “That money was simply collected on that day for reasons of convenience and so they could give it to Paul when he came around again”

Rev 1:10 — “The Lord’s Day can refer to the Sabbath too. (Isaiah 58:13)”
 
CutlerB said:
It said that too, but somehow it didn’t really bear any fruit. To be honest, I do find the point a bit weak. To me it feels a bit desperate, like saying: “Well, it doesn’t say the opposite, either. It must simply mean this.”

But the Church could not change a law of God, could she? By that, she’d place herself higher than Him.
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Note that the Church is God (as the Body of Christ) on earth carrying out that which Christ started with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, one can not separate God from the Church.
 
CutlerB said:
I’ve come across those too, and the responses to them were as follows.

Acts 20:7 — “Breaking bread can also refer to a normal supper (Acts 2:42,46)”

1 Cor 16:2 — “That money was simply collected on that day for reasons of convenience and so they could give it to Paul when he came around again”

Rev 1:10 — “The Lord’s Day can refer to the Sabbath too. (Isaiah 58:13)”
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catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/Sabath.htm Then, I would provide them with this… Thank you for the feedback. may God bless you!
 
DCNBILL said:
Note that the Church is God (as the Body of Christ) on earth carrying out that which Christ started with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, one can not separate God from the Church.
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OK, now that — to be honest — does sound very perplexing to me. I’ve not really dug into that area yet.
 
I think everyone needs to check their assumptions. People see “7th day is Saturday, so that’s the Sabbath.”

That assumes we are using the Gregorian Calendar, invented by the Catholic Church.
So the sabbatarians are accepting the Catholic Church’s authority to set their calendar and their day of worship!

If there is any discussion on what day the sabbath is supposed to be, we have to start from the beginning.

When was the first sabbath?

What was that date? (hint: Nobody can answer this)

Starting from that date, count 7 days at a time until the present. What day of the week will that result in? It should result in the Sabbath as it is really is.

What if doing this calculation, that the real Sabbath should be Tuesday? Would sabbatarians stop going on Saturday and go on Tuesday, repenting of their error? Or would they say “Saturday!!!” and just hold fast?

My point is, that every 7th day is supposed to be the Sabbath. Whether it is Saturday, Sunday or whatever, as long as we follow the rule (every 7th day) that’s the Sabbath.
 
CutlerB said:
I’ve come across those too, and the responses to them were as follows.

Acts 20:7 — “Breaking bread can also refer to a normal supper (Acts 2:42,46)”

1 Cor 16:2 — “That money was simply collected on that day for reasons of convenience and so they could give it to Paul when he came around again”

Rev 1:10 — “The Lord’s Day can refer to the Sabbath too. (Isaiah 58:13)”
Click to expand...
Worship (III): The Day of Worship: The Lord’s Day

In Rev. 1:10 John wrote, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day . . . .” By the time the book of Revelation was written, one day had already come to be designated as the “Lord’s Day.” Which day was it? Sabbatarians tell us that the Lord’s day is the seventh day of the week and teach that the early church worshiped on the Sabbath day. They further charge that either the pope or Constantine changed the day of worship of the New Testament church and that those of us who worship on the first day of the week have departed from New Testament Christianity. Let us find out just what John meant when he spoke of the “Lord’s day” to see if the first or the seventh day of the week is the Lord’s day.
Sabbath Observance Was Abolished
The observance of the Sabbath day was instituted shortly after God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. The commandment to “remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy” was given to the nation Israel in conjunction with the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20; Deut. 5). God specifically stipulated how the Sabbath was to be observed. Here are some of the ordinances required for proper observance of the Sabbath day, according to the Mosaical law: (a) do no work (Ex. 31:15); (b) kindle no fire (Ex. 35:3); (c) gather no sticks (Num. 15:32); (d) offer burnt offerings (Num. 29:9-10); (e) buy no goods (Neh. 10:31; 28:9-10); (f) bear no burden (Jer. 17:21); (g) prepare shewbread (1 Chron. 9:32); (h) stay in one’s place (Ex. 16:29; Acts 1:12). Anyone who disobeyed these commandments was to be punished by being put to death (Ex. 31:14; Num. 15:32-36).
Though many religious people say that they observe the Sabbath day, I have never yet met anyone who observed it according to the Scriptures. Though they might do no work and buy no goods, I know of no Sabbatarian who prepares shewbread and offers burnt offerings on the Sabbath day as the Mosaical law requires. Neither have I ever met the man who believes that all those who do not observe the Sabbath day should be put to death. Even those who believe in worshiping on the Sabbath day do not believe in observing it as the Bible dictates.
However, when the law of Christ was given, the Mosaical law was abolished or abrogated (Heb. 8:13; 7:12; Eph. 2:14-16; etc.). Consequently, Paul could write, “And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to ,food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ” (Col. 2:13-17). Hence, Sabbath observance was abolished when the rest of the ordinances of the Mosaical law were abolished. Men do not observe the Sabbath, not because the pope or Constantine said not to observe it, but because of a divine decree which set aside the Sabbath day.

truthmagazine.com/archives/volume23/TM023299.html
 
CutlerB said:
But the Church could not change a law of God, could she? By that, she’d place herself higher than Him.
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Keep in mind that from the Catholic perspective there is not a separation between Christ and the Church (as Scripture says, Christ is the head of the Church and we are members of the body). Therefore, we believe that the origin of what the Church officially teaches pertaining to faith and morals is Christ, and that the Church is guiding in defining such matters with a guaranteed guidance of the Holy Spirit.

We can readily see that many aspects of the Old Testament laws ceased or were modified after the coming of Christ. There are over 600 laws in Old Testament, and very few of them are applicable to Christians (which was especially good news for me today, seeing as I had pork BBQ for lunch).
 
CutlerB said:
I’ve come across those too, and the responses to them were as follows.

Acts 20:7 — “Breaking bread can also refer to a normal supper (Acts 2:42,46)”

1 Cor 16:2 — “That money was simply collected on that day for reasons of convenience and so they could give it to Paul when he came around again”

Rev 1:10 — “The Lord’s Day can refer to the Sabbath too. (Isaiah 58:13)”
Click to expand...
Notice that they have to twist things to fit their narrow and particular belief that goes against everything else in Christianity. Does that sound like a reasonable interpretation OR something kinda heretical?

Keep driving home the points…
  1. We see in the bible that Christians gathered and worshipped on Sunday NOT Saturday.
  2. Sunday was chosen by the Apostles because that is when Christ rose and this is what the entire new covenant is based on and what Christian worship is all about.
  3. The early Church, that is the Apostles themselves, were given the authority to bind and loose. They made this change for good reason (see 1 & 2 above) and Christians followed their teachings.
  4. We have lot of things from the Old Testament that were foreshadows of the New covenant and which we don’t keep doing. - Animal Sacrifice, Ritual washing, going back to the Temple in Jerusalem, etc. Therefore it seems a bit disengenuine to single out Saturday as the 1 Jewish custom that we MUST uphold.
  5. We are still obeying the command to keep holy the Sabbath - the day changes, not the principle or law.
  6. We have evidence that the Apostles DID change the date in the bible (which they should respect) and the Didache as well as countless other historical records since that time. We therefore have an unbroken line from Christ’s resurrection to today that Christians follow the Sabbath on Sunday, NOT Saturday.
The fact that they single this 1 thing out, above all others is the exact type of thing that the bible warns us against. The Apostles say that we will know false teachers when they do not teach the same as the Apostles taught. And the 7th Day Adventists really have not historical grounds to stand on… so what they teach opposes what we KNOW the Apostles taught. - Because we have the bible AND history BOTH confirming this.

They can argue and use semantics to try and find other interpretations - but their interpretation conflicts with the entire thrust of Christian history. So it is kinda like they are supposing an alternate reality where the Christian faith never moved the Sabbath to Sunday - but that’s not reality.

So ultimately… who’s more likely to be wrong? - The earliest Christians who were taught by the Apostles OR some offshoot group some 1800 years later?
 
The SDA are taught a visceral hatred of the Catholic Church. They eat and drink it. They believe that the Catholic Church will force Sunday worship by a federal law. They believe that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon” and that the pope is the antichrist. Their foundress, Ellen Gould White, received a severe head injury as a child and was comatose for three weeks. After that, she worked in the family hat-making business, where she was allegedly exposed to mercury, a poisonous, heavy metal. The use of mercury in the hat-making business lead to the coining of the term “mad hatter.”

After these two events, she began receiving “visions”. She started a career of almost compulsive writing. She hated the Catholic Church, believing that it had fooled or duped all of the world’s true Christians into Sunday worship. The SDA believe that her writings are inspired, but are on a level just below that of the bible. However, they are true Christians, having a belief in the trinity, and a valid trinitarian baptism - but are about as fringe as you can get. They share some beliefs with the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses - not surprising, since they appeared on the face of the earth at the same time, and in the same country.

An excellent resource to rely on in such discussions is the Essential Catholic Survival Guide , which is a compilation of Catholic Answers’ tracts on the SDA, LDS, JWs, and various other subjects.
 
po18guy said:
The SDA are taught a visceral hatred of the Catholic Church. They eat and drink it. They believe that the Catholic Church will force Sunday worship by a federal law. They believe that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon” and that the pope is the antichrist. Their foundress, Ellen Gould White, received a severe head injury as a child and was comatose for three weeks. After that, she worked in the family hat-making business, where she was allegedly exposed to mercury, a poisonous, heavy metal. The use of mercury in the hat-making business lead to the coining of the term “mad hatter.”

After these two events, she began receiving “visions”. She started a career of almost compulsive writing. She hated the Catholic Church, believing that it had fooled or duped all of the world’s true Christians into Sunday worship. The SDA believe that her writings are inspired, but are on a level just below that of the bible. However, they are true Christians, having a belief in the trinity, and a valid trinitarian baptism - but are about as fringe as you can get. They share some beliefs with the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses - not surprising, since they appeared on the face of the earth at the same time, and in the same country.
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Are you sure? The friend I was talking to knows about my interest in the Catholic Church, but he did not in any way seem opposed. In fact, he said he doesn’t hate her. He went further asking me to take him to Mass, once I had taken the step to convert. That doesn’t sound too hateful?
 
CutlerB said:
Are you sure? The friend I was talking to knows about my interest in the Catholic Church, but he did not in any way seem opposed. In fact, he said he doesn’t hate her. He went further asking me to take him to Mass, once I had taken the step to convert. That doesn’t sound too hateful?
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Just be aware that they do indeed offer massive amounts of anti-Catholic propaganda and it’s been perpetrated by their leaders for about as long as they’ve been in existence.

You might want to take a look at the following links that I gleaned from the [Ask an Apologist (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4) forum. Why do the Seventh Day Adventists attack the Catholic Church?
 
CutlerB said:
Are you sure? The friend I was talking to knows about my interest in the Catholic Church, but he did not in any way seem opposed. In fact, he said he doesn’t hate her. He went further asking me to take him to Mass, once I had taken the step to convert. That doesn’t sound too hateful?
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I pray that you have found an open-hearted seeker of the truth. May it be so! My chaplain at work was SDA, which lead to my investigating their faith. Yes, they are one of the most anti-Catholic sects out there. As to further questions your friend may have, a copy of Catholicism for Dummies would be an excellent book to have on hand. Praying that all goes well.
 
CutlerB said:
OK, now that — to be honest — does sound very perplexing to me. I’ve not really dug into that area yet.
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Well it really makes sense when you think about it. Would God go through all the trouble of the Incarnation, forming a community of believers, suffering the Passion, Death and then Resurrecting, tell His followers to go out and preach the Good News to all nations and not have a system of authority established so that His Word would be propagated throughout the ages?

I believe that it would be silly to think otherwise.
 
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