The Sack of Constantinople -- 800 years later

[JMJ_coder]

Why are the Orthodox still so angry about the unfortunate sacking of Constantinople? It wasn’t even authorized or planned by Rome and was in fact condemned by the Pope. Why do they refuse to forgive the Catholic Church? It doesn’t seem very Christian of them.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why are the Orthodox still so angry about the unfortunate sacking of Constantinople? It wasn’t even authorized or planned by Rome and was in fact condemned by the Pope. Why do they refuse to forgive the Catholic Church? It doesn’t seem very Christian of them.

Doesn’t the vatican still have some of the treasure looted from Constantinople? That might be one reason…

 

[mardukm]

Doesn’t the vatican still have some of the treasure looted from Constantinople? That might be one reason…

Like what?

I know there are items in other churches around the Western Patriarchate, but contrary to popular polemic opinion, the Pope has no temporal authority over the goods of any other church except those within his immediate diocese as bishop (i.e. Rome, and the Vatican proper).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bkovacs]

Like what?

I know there are items in other churches around the Western Patriarchate, but contrary to popular polemic opinion, the Pope has no temporal authority over the goods of any other church except those within his immediate diocese as bishop (i.e. Rome, and the Vatican proper).

Blessings,
Marduk

St Marks in Venice rings a bell!.

 

[Addai]

Why are the Orthodox still so angry about the unfortunate sacking of Constantinople? It wasn’t even authorized or planned by Rome and was in fact condemned by the Pope. Why do they refuse to forgive the Catholic Church? It doesn’t seem very Christian of them.

I think its a power thing. Being a victim gives them extra leverage to resist the papacy in other areas.

When dealing with EO polemicists on this issue its good to bring up two things.

1. The plight of Latin rite Catholics in Constaninople during the decades that preceded the Crusade where this took place. (Ventetian Latins merchants and other Latin catholics were murdered and abused with no action or statement from Constantinople. This led to bitterness which attributed to getting even later).
2. The plight of Oriental Orthodox under their rule.

These two things help to put things into perspective. They were not the only victims concerning past conflicts in the Church.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

As with all things there are two sides to every story. Latins were massacred twice in Constantinople in the 50 years before in numbers comparable to the sack. Also when christians should have stood together to fight muslim aggression the emperor of byzantium betrayed the western christians and if they had not been warned they would have got owned.

The latins did wrong in sacking the city.

In those days Constantinople was the power so the emperor tried to control the Church. Interestingly this is why some lapsed Greeks that I know in London parrot the “religion for control” rubbish.

Paul

 

[bpbasilphx]

Orthodox have tradtionally had devilishly long memories (I use this deliberately).

I’ve attended parish council meetings were nearly an hour was wasted complaining about what a previous rector had done 25 years before.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I think its a power thing. Being a victim gives them extra leverage to resist the papacy in other areas.

When dealing with EO polemicists on this issue its good to bring up two things.

1. The plight of Latin rite Catholics in Constaninople during the decades that preceded the Crusade where this took place. (Ventetian Latins merchants and other Latin catholics were murdered and abused with no action or statement from Constantinople. This led to bitterness which attributed to getting even later).
2. The plight of Oriental Orthodox under their rule.

These two things help to put things into perspective. They were not the only victims concerning past conflicts in the Church.

Do you have any sources for these?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Orthodox have tradtionally had devilishly long memories (I use this deliberately).

I’ve attended parish council meetings were nearly an hour was wasted complaining about what a previous rector had done 25 years before.

Yes, I can attest to this in my own family (which is slavic – well one side at least). There are still grudges being held. Someone said “something” and that was that, my grandmother doesn’t talk to them anymore – they don’t exist. And they were as close as peas and carrots before.

 

[Ridgerunner]

St Marks in Venice rings a bell!.

I have no reason to doubt that there are things inside from Constantinople. But the horses were made during the pagan period and came from a racetrack. Turkey would have the best claim to them, if anyone does.

I wonder if it’s possible to know what objects were made during the pagan period; which were made during the period when the Latin and Eastern churches were unified and which were made during the period of actual schism.

 

[bkovacs]

Turkey never existed until the Muslims came. Turkey=Muslim

 

[bpbasilphx]

**But the horses were made during the pagan period and came from a racetrack. **

**The Hippodrome and its horses which were taken to St. Mark’s in Venice date from Constantinople’s Christian period.

Of course, there’s no Hippodrome to which they can be returned now.

And “Turkey” didn’t exist, at least as a state, until the fall of the Ottoman Empire.**

 

[Madaglan]

Why are the Orthodox still so angry about the unfortunate sacking of Constantinople? It wasn’t even authorized or planned by Rome and was in fact condemned by the Pope. Why do they refuse to forgive the Catholic Church? It doesn’t seem very Christian of them.

Probably for similar reasons that the Irish hate Cromwell.

“Accursed Protestant invaders!”

 

[malphono]

Why are the Orthodox still so angry about the unfortunate sacking of Constantinople? It wasn’t even authorized or planned by Rome and was in fact condemned by the Pope. Why do they refuse to forgive the Catholic Church? It doesn’t seem very Christian of them.

As bpbasilphx said, “Orthodox have tradtionally had devilishly long memories.” But I trust you don’t mean to say that the sacking of Constantinople can be considered “Christian” either. Whether it was planned or “authorized” by Rome (or any of the western monarchs involved) is rather beside the point. The fact is that it happened, and no matter what one’s perspective, it was an un-Christian act in and of itself.

PaulAndrew83:

1) The plight of Latin rite Catholics in Constaninople during the decades that preceded the Crusade where this took place. (Ventetian Latins merchants and other Latin catholics were murdered and abused with no action or statement from Constantinople. This led to bitterness which attributed to getting even later).

As with all things there are two sides to every story. Latins were massacred twice in Constantinople in the 50 years before in numbers comparable to the sack. Also when christians should have stood together to fight muslim aggression the emperor of byzantium betrayed the western christians and if they had not been warned they would have got owned. … In those days Constantinople was the power so the emperor tried to control the Church. …

Personally, I doubt that the treatment of Latins in Constantinople for the preceding 50 years had much to do with it. It was the loot. Yes, the Byzantine Empire was “the power” but it was weak and ripe for plundering. And the weakness of the Empire was likely at least part of the reason it did not get involved in fighting the Arab occupation. Remember, too, that the vast bulk of Crusaders from the West were not of the “educated classes” (I’m being as nice as I can here) and I suppose the commanders may have said: “the boys need some fun, so let them have it in Constantinople.”

Just my 2cents, and probably not worth half of that.

 

[mardukm]

**But the horses were made during the pagan period and came from a racetrack. **

**The Hippodrome and its horses which were taken to St. Mark’s in Venice date from Constantinople’s Christian period.

Of course, there’s no Hippodrome to which they can be returned now.

And “Turkey” didn’t exist, at least as a state, until the fall of the Ottoman Empire.**

Has the See of Constantinople ever formally negotiated with the bishop of Venice for the return of the property? Has there ever been a formal request or catalogue of identifiable items that could be returned?

And here’s a serious question - would the return of such items actually heal the animosity?

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

I suppose the commanders may have said: “the boys need some fun, so let them have it in Constantinople.”

From my understanding, the Latins initially occupied the city by invitation, and it was the animosity shown to them by the Greek populace just because they were Latin - even before there was any notion of a sack - that made the sack more violent. I’m not condoning anyone’s unChristian behavior during the event, and I’m not defending unChristian behavior at all, but I think we have to put things in proper perspective. These were two groups of people acting in an unChristian manner towards each other, and one side just happened to have more “guns.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Dan-Man916]

Has either the west or the east explivitly expressed their expectations, to the other in writing, of what they want from the other in order for reunion to occur?

 

[Dan-Man916]

From my understanding, the Latins initially occupied the city by invitation, and it was the animosity shown to them by the Greek populace just because they were Latin - even before there was any notion of a sack - that made the sack more violent. I’m not condoning anyone’s unChristian behavior during the event, and I’m not defending unChristian behavior at all, but I think we have to put things in proper perspective. These were two groups of people acting in an unChristian manner towards each other, and one side just happened to have more “guns.”

Blessings,
Marduk

However, the discussion of the sacking of Constantinople has occured on this forum before.
As I remember, the fundamental problem of that discussion was a lack of consensus in what happened, who was at fault, and what the contributing factors were.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The Sack of Constantinople

I’ve got the “Backpack of Constantinople™”, although my wife thinks the “Bruxton Bag of Constantinople™” is much more impressive!

Of course, neither of our Constantinopolitan souvenirs are anywhere NEAR the antiquity of your 800 year old Sack™, though ours are probably in better shape.

:shamrock2:

 

[Amadeus]

The most recent transferral of relics to the See of Constantinople was done in November 2004, involving those of St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian.

The documents covering the transferral:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/2004/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_20041127_consegna-reliquie_en.html