The Sack of Constantinople

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Yes, Catholicism should forever be condemned for the 2,000 Orthodox (some of whom were combatants) in the sack of Constantinople. But, by the same token:

I think the Eastern Orthodox should forever feel guilty and be blamed for African slavery and the murder of American Indians. Being mostly white, they share the guilt, as do all white people everywhere, both living and dead, whether their ancestors, let alone they, themselves, directly participated or not.

Furthermore, they should be forever condemned for wasting their resources fighting and weakening the Zoroastrian Persians and themselves so that the Arab Muslims were able to overcome them both.

Not only that, the poor Tatars, whose empire Orthodoxy destroyed, are owed an endless apology and the restoration of the territory and loot taken from them.

And think of the innocent Turks whom they invaded shortly after WW I, massacreing many. Yet, they failed to war on the Turks when the “heretic” Armenians needed them the most. A million Armenians died needlessly because the Orthodox Greeks and Russians, who were right there, and could have stopped it, wouldn’t lift a finger.

And World War I itself. Had it not been for that Orthodox Gavrilo Princep killing the Austrian Archduke, that war would never have happened. Constantinople was amply avenged on the Somme alone.

And Orthodoxy invaded German East Prussia in WWI before ever a German shot was fired at them. And when, by the way, is Orthodoxy going to restore Eastern Poland and Konigsberg to their rightful owners?

And what of the innocent Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, Western Ukrainians and East Germans who groaned under the heel of Orthodox despotism after WW II? You owe much to them.

And in our own time, you should feel guilty for the killing of Turks on Cyprus.

And to this very day, Orthodoxy murders Chechens simply because they do not wish to be ruled by Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy provided to Saddam Hussein, and now provides to Iran, the materials needed to produce weapons of mass destruction.

And of course there are the 10,000 Italians to be remembered, who were massacred by the Orthodox shortly before the Fourth Crusade.

Not guilty, you say? I agree. You are no more guilty of those things than Catholics and Catholicism are guilty of the sack of Constantinople.
 
I meant that the last strong defense of Constantinople was destroyed. It was still defended, but by such a miniscule amount of men that the Muslim Armies had very little difficulty getting in.

I don’t justify the actions of the Crusaders, though. It was wrong what they did.

Agree with the second statement. Strongly disagree with the first. Constantinople was overcome by somewhere around 7,000-8,000 outnumbered Crusaders. Some 200,000 Turks finally overcame Consantinople. Constantinople would have been lost to the Turks, no matter what.
 
Agree with the second statement. Strongly disagree with the first. Constantinople was overcome by somewhere around 7,000-8,000 outnumbered Crusaders. Some 200,000 Turks finally overcame Consantinople. Constantinople would have been lost to the Turks, no matter what.
I’ll reason that the same thing would have happened anyway, but that still does not justify the actions of the Crusaders. If they had not done that, the fault would have been on Constantinople and the large amount of Muslim attacks. Instead, the blame is easily put on Rome for many reasons…
 
And World War I itself. Had it not been for that Orthodox Gavrilo Princep killing the Austrian Archduke, that war would never have happened. Constantinople was amply avenged on the Somme alone.
The ascription of the act of an individual to a faith is inappropriate.
And Orthodoxy invaded German East Prussia in WWI before ever a German shot was fired at them. And when, by the way, is Orthodoxy going to restore Eastern Poland and Konigsberg to their rightful owners?
And what of the innocent Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, Western Ukrainians and East Germans who groaned under the heel of Orthodox despotism after WW II? You owe much to them.
And in our own time, you should feel guilty for the killing of Turks on Cyprus.
And to this very day, Orthodoxy murders Chechens simply because they do not wish to be ruled by Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy provided to Saddam Hussein, and now provides to Iran, the materials needed to produce weapons of mass destruction.
but even more inappropriate is the equation of Orthodoxy with the acts of nations.

Many years,

Neil
 
Dear brother Neil
The ascription of the act of an individual to a faith is inappropriate.

but even more inappropriate is the equation of Orthodoxy with the acts of nations.
Brother Ridgerunner readily admitted that these were nonsensical accusations (see last paragraph of his post). I believe his point was that if, as you say, ascribing the act of an individual to a faith is inappropriate, and even moreso the acts of nations to a Church, then there is no validity to the anger of EO towards the Catholic Church for what the Crusaders did.

Several years ago, when I was just a lurker on these forums, I remember a statement by a Latin gentleman. His statement stuck with me because it was so sensible, so moral and so Christian. He stated rather indignantly to an EO poster regarding this topic, “The Japanese were murdering and torturing Filipinos not 60 years ago, yet my best friend in highschool was Japanese and my mother, who experienced those horrendous days, accepted him with open arms. So don’t expect me to believe your baloney about forgiving yet not forgetting” (I probably got the exact wording wrong, but the gist of it is definitely correct).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Neil

Brother Ridgerunner readily admitted that these were nonsensical accusations (see last paragraph of his post). I believe his point was that if, as you say, ascribing the act of an individual to a faith is inappropriate, and even moreso the acts of nations to a Church, then there is no validity to the anger of EO towards the Catholic Church for what the Crusaders did.

Blessings,
Marduk
Exactly!
 
Don’t paint me as the unsympathetic one here. I have sympathy, but it is possible to exhaust it. Appealing to outrage (as you just now did) 800 years later does little to change anything. Rather, intended or not, seems like gloating in the moral superiority of righteous victimhood.

Rather simply, I am not the one whose feet this can be laid at… I am rather certain I don’t know there is any “Latin” who can be blamed 800 years later.

That this matter carries a great deal of polemical weight seems rather more than a conincidence or inconsequential when it comes to discussing why it is still discussed in the manner it is.
How much research do you actually have on this? Do you know the persecution of Christians in Constantinople is ongoing? Right away everyone jumps the gun and assumes a “get over it” position. And then the polemics comes up, can’t we as a society get past the fact that things aren’t always grey or black, left or right, etc…? Anyway, I don’t why the defense went up, we were just discussing a historical fact that is still remembered today, not pointing fingers and trying to arise a “so what, get over it, polemical argument.”
Simple fact.
The sacking did happen.
The memory is alive.
Nothing more, nothing less.
 
How much research do you actually have on this? Do you know the persecution of Christians in Constantinople is ongoing? Right away everyone jumps the gun and assumes a “get over it” position. And then the polemics comes up, can’t we as a society get past the fact that things aren’t always grey or black, left or right, etc…? Anyway, I don’t why the defense went up, we were just discussing a historical fact that is still remembered today, not pointing fingers and trying to arise a “so what, get over it, polemical argument.”
Simple fact.
The sacking did happen.
The memory is alive.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Persecution by Moslems, certainly not by Catholics. And Catholics have been in the forefront of those protesting against the Moslem persecution of Orthodox in Constantinople and elsewhere. Catholics are not asking EOCs to “get over” the horrendous fact that they are being persecuted. They are merely asking them to “get over” one atrocious but short-lived episode of abuse by nominal Catholics more than 800 years ago, for which 21st century Catholics are not by any stretch remotely responsible. And never have I seen a Catholic attempt to deny that the sack happened, or to say that it was not an atrocious and unChristian act. So please lay off the empty rhetoric “Simple fact. The sacking did happen. The memory is alive.”
 
How much research do you actually have on this? Do you know the persecution of Christians in Constantinople is ongoing? Right away everyone jumps the gun and assumes a “get over it” position. And then the polemics comes up, can’t we as a society get past the fact that things aren’t always grey or black, left or right, etc…? Anyway, I don’t why the defense went up, we were just discussing a historical fact that is still remembered today, not pointing fingers and trying to arise a “so what, get over it, polemical argument.”
Simple fact.
The sacking did happen.
The memory is alive.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Then let’s put it this way. It’s backward and immoral to nourish such a toxic notion in one’s soul , in the same way that it’s backward and immoral for Christians to vilify Jews for being “Christ killers”.
 
The ascription of the act of an individual to a faith is inappropriate.

but even more inappropriate is the equation of Orthodoxy with the acts of nations.

Many years,

Neil
I am so glad to see you agree with Ridge so clearly and openly in his rather pointed post that the claims against the “Latins” made on this thread for the Sack are inappropriate.
 
Thank you Woodstock. It is hard to understand why they still hold onto the memory from an American viewpoint. Once the media stops reporting about it, we forget about it. I’m thinking maybe they hold onto this because it was a first in a long series of persecutions that still exist today in Constantinople.
The fact remains that it is something people remember to this day. One person saying “get over it” will not make them do so.

Hamburglar, only time and experience will help you discern and to sort of “get away” from those sorts of conversations that you experienced.
It is actually hard to understand from a Christian viewpoint.

I listen to my Orthodox relatives whine about it as if it has some genuine connection to their lives. Then they also whine about how the holocaust that took my father’s family in his lifetime gets to much publicity. So you can imagine how their outrage does not get much sympathy from me. I feel bad that this happened in history - it was a bad thing that happened nearly a millennia ago. This grudge holding is so unchristian. I don’t hold any German responsible for the sins of dead nazis, even if it was their parents, so yes it is hard to imagine Christians refusing forgiveness for something that later popes apologized for.

Culture is no excuse. It is used an excuse for schism 800 years later while ignoring the previous mentioned sins against latins. And that is ridiculous. It is all ancient history unhelpful.

Mel
 
The sack directly led to the fall of New Rome, which had withstood attacks for nearly a millenium. Her fall was greated with shock in the West too.

When the Cross goes back on Hagia Sophia, we’ll get over it.
So unforgiveness is a virtue in Orthodox Chirstianity?
 
I disagree. Though it is not the isolated event of the Sack of Constantinople that lead to the fall, it certainly was the last straw. With the unjust sack, Constantinople lost its last defense against the Muslim invaders. Why are people still upset? How would you feel if other Christians, who were once your allies, came to your town and killed your family and destroyed your home? Then, they violated the LORD by entering His house with bloody swords and stole your most prized possessions and relics, only to put them on display in their own churches. Please, have some sympathy…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
Your families were not killed. Your homes were not invaded. In fact, you weren’t even in existence at the time of the Sack of Constantinople. Seriously it has nothing to do with you.
 
Dear brother Mel,
It is actually hard to understand from a Christian viewpoint.

I listen to my Orthodox relatives whine about it as if it has some genuine connection to their lives. Then they also whine about how the holocaust that took my father’s family in his lifetime gets to much publicity. So you can imagine how their outrage does not get much sympathy from me. I feel bad that this happened in history - it was a bad thing that happened nearly a millennia ago. This grudge holding is so unchristian. I don’t hold any German responsible for the sins of dead nazis, even if it was their parents, so yes it is hard to imagine Christians refusing forgiveness for something that later popes apologized for.

Culture is no excuse. It is used an excuse for schism 800 years later while ignoring the previous mentioned sins against latins. And that is ridiculous. It is all ancient history unhelpful.
Your witness of forgiveness and understanding, given your Jewish background and how recent the persecutions of your people under the Nazis has been (similar to the experience of that Filipino Latin poster I mentioned earlier from the Japanese), is absolutely awesome and shines with the light of God! Many of our EO brethren can learn from you.

Abundant Blessings,
Marduk
 
Many Orthodox have ancestors that can be traced to those killed during the terrible sack of Constantinople. It was a brutal and horrible thing. And of course we all know about nazis and their evil murdering of the Jews during the holocaust. But I detect an insinuation that because the tragedy at Constantinople was so long ago, people should no longer feel the pain.

Yes. We all need to forgive. That is our faith. But we are human and the pain lingers for a very long time–and that pain can be passed down through many generations. Telling people to stop “whining”, is insulting and uncharitable.
 
Then let’s put it this way. It’s backward and immoral to nourish such a toxic notion in one’s soul , in the same way that it’s backward and immoral for Christians to vilify Jews for being “Christ killers”.
i haven’t seen anyone blame or hold anything against roman catholics on this issue on this thread or anywhere. It’s not “holding something in” and it’s not “playing the blame game.”
It was a point, and people are going off the deep end here, as if it is a personal attack to them. .
Good grief.
 
Your families were not killed. Your homes were not invaded. In fact, you weren’t even in existence at the time of the Sack of Constantinople. Seriously it has nothing to do with you.
Right, and my relatives came from Eastern Europe anyway. I’m pointing out that the Sack of Constantinople was wrong. It seems many would rather just ignore it like the West did for centuries and pretend it didn’t happen, rather than stand up and say it was wrong…🤷
 
Dear brother Mickey,
Many Orthodox have ancestors that can be traced to those killed during the terrible sack of Constantinople. It was a brutal and horrible thing. And of course we all know about nazis and their evil murdering of the Jews during the holocaust. But I detect an insinuation that because the tragedy at Constantinople was so long ago, people should no longer feel the pain.
That’s certainly a possible interpretation, but I don’t think anyone ever stated that, nor intended that.
Yes. We all need to forgive. That is our faith. But we are human and the pain lingers for a very long time–and that pain can be passed down through many generations. Telling people to stop “whining”, is insulting and uncharitable.
Everyone has a right to their pain. No one has denied that. However, you can feel pain without constantly blaming someone for it. The accusation of whining comes because of the unjustified blaming, not because of the pain being felt. I believe the ones accused of whining are the ones that are not forgiving, and are using the ancient occasion to perpetuate modern schism, and those who can’t even trace their lineage to a Greek from Constantinople in those days, as they are converts to EO’xy.

In any case, “whiners” seems a rather soft rebuke, given God’s judgment against those who do not forgive their brethren, don’t you think. Besides, if anyone has a right to accuse anyone of whining, it is one whose own people have only very recently been persecuted and murdered, yet has indeed forgiven.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Alexius,
Right, and my relatives came from Eastern Europe anyway. I’m pointing out that the Sack of Constantinople was wrong. It seems many would rather just ignore it like the West did for centuries and pretend it didn’t happen, rather than stand up and say it was wrong…🤷
If you read through the posts, I believe you will find that NO ONE has denied it, and NO ONE has stated it was not wrong. Rather, what the Latins, and some Eastern/Oriental Catholics are pointing out is that 1) the blame for actions of nations or individuals in the past should not be imposed on those in the present; 2) the blame for actions of nations or individuals in the past should not be imposed on a Faith or a Church as a whole.

Peace and blessings,
Marduk
 
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