The Sack of Constantinople

[Mickey]

In any case, “whiners” seems a rather soft rebuke, given God’s judgment against those who do not forgive their brethren, don’t you think.

You do not know that they have not forgiven in their hearts. You are not a heart reader. People have pain. Instead of accusing them of being unable to forgive and calling them whiners (no I do not think it is “a rather soft rebuke”), perhaps we can show a little mercy for the pain they may feel?

 

[mardukm]

You do not know that they have not forgiven in their hearts. You are not a heart reader. People have pain. Instead of accusing them of being unable to forgive and calling them whiners (no I do not think it is “a rather soft rebuke”), perhaps we can show a little mercy for the pain they may feel?

I definitely agree with you that we should show mercy, and in factm, sympathy, for the pain they may feel.

But - someone who blames Catholics and the Catholic Church of today for what occurred in Constantinople centuries ago, someone who uses that ancient event as a CAUSE for disunity, has certainly not forgiven. Wouldn’t you agree? Think about instances when you have forgiven someone, brother. Do you still assign blame? Does that occassion influence you to unChristian actions? Or is there rather peace in your heart about the matter?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

But - someone who blames Catholics and the Catholic Church of today for what occurred in Constantinople centuries ago, someone who uses that ancient event as a CAUSE for disunity, has certainly not forgiven. Wouldn’t you agree?

Forgiveness and trust are two different things. Wouldn’t you agree brother?

If someone habitually wronged me, and I forgave him over and over again, I would continue to forgive, but could I trust him to never do it again?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

This started on a thread in ECathF, for what reason I don’t know, as it seems to involve the Orthodox and the Latins. I don’t know how it involves Easterners under Rome.

Right, and my relatives came from Eastern Europe anyway. I’m pointing out that the Sack of Constantinople was wrong. It seems many would rather just ignore it like the West did for centuries and pretend it didn’t happen, rather than stand up and say it was wrong…

Dear brother Alexius,

If you read through the posts, I believe you will find that NO ONE has denied it, and NO ONE has stated it was not wrong. Rather, what the Latins, and some Eastern/Oriental Catholics are pointing out is that 1) the blame for actions of nations or individuals in the past should not be imposed on those in the present; 2) the blame for actions of nations or individuals in the past should not be imposed on a Faith or a Church as a whole.

Peace and blessings,
Marduk

Many Orthodox have ancestors that can be traced to those killed during the terrible sack of Constantinople. It was a brutal and horrible thing. And of course we all know about nazis and their evil murdering of the Jews during the holocaust. But I detect an insinuation that because the tragedy at Constantinople was so long ago, people should no longer feel the pain.

Yes. We all need to forgive. That is our faith. But we are human and the pain lingers for a very long time–and that pain can be passed down through many generations. Telling people to stop “whining”, is insulting and uncharitable.

Dear brother Mickey,

That’s certainly a possible interpretation, but I don’t think anyone ever stated that, nor intended that.

Everyone has a right to their pain. No one has denied that. However, you can feel pain without constantly blaming someone for it. The accusation of whining comes because of the unjustified blaming, not because of the pain being felt. I believe the ones accused of whining are the ones that are not forgiving, and are using the ancient occasion to perpetuate modern schism, and those who can’t even trace their lineage to a Greek from Constantinople in those days, as they are converts to EO’xy.

In any case, “whiners” seems a rather soft rebuke, given God’s judgment against those who do not forgive their brethren, don’t you think. Besides, if anyone has a right to accuse anyone of whining, it is one whose own people have only very recently been persecuted and murdered, yet has indeed forgiven.

Blessings,
Marduk

Now, I don’t recall this being brought up to perpetuate the schism EXCEPT: the historical fact that it sealed it. After that the Romans (miscalled Greeks) couldn’t ignore the realities of 1054 anymore. That’s over a century of forbearance.

The end of it, for all of the pope crocodile tears, was to set up a Latin patriarch of Constantinople (which, unlike the Orthodox one, Rome gave recognition as being second in rank), joining the ranks of the Latin Patriarchs that the Crusaders had set up in the ancient sees of Antioch and Jerusalem: the one the pope appointed for Alexandria never set foot there, as they never conquered Egypt

These patriarchs were not abolished until Vatican II, within the lifetime of many.

Now, the Latins vaunt the “Spirit of Vatican II,” and wonder why the Orthodox don’t forgive and forget. It’s not that we don’t: they remember and are wary, as we should be. We have a long history of “help” from the West.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Since this seems to be portrayed as an Orthodox grudge against the Latins, why is here?

I have replied, but I think where the rules require it:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3047599#post3047599

 

[East_and_West]

Many Orthodox have ancestors that can be traced to those killed during the terrible sack of Constantinople. It was a brutal and horrible thing. And of course we all know about nazis and their evil murdering of the Jews during the holocaust. But I detect an insinuation that because the tragedy at Constantinople was so long ago, people should no longer feel the pain.

Yes. We all need to forgive. That is our faith. But we are human and the pain lingers for a very long time–and that pain can be passed down through many generations. Telling people to stop “whining”, is insulting and uncharitable.

Actually it is charitable. Perhaps when they get over something that happened 800 years ago they will be able to grow as people.

 

[mardukm]

Forgiveness and trust are two different things. Wouldn’t you agree brother?

If someone habitually wronged me, and I forgave him over and over again, I would continue to forgive, but could I trust him to never do it again?

Biblically speaking, they are the same thing, brother. It is a hard cross to bear - agreed - but we as Christians are called to a greater standard, wouldn’t you agree?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Catherine_Grant]

This started on a thread in ECathF, for what reason I don’t know, as it seems to involve the Orthodox and the Latins. I don’t know how it involves Easterners under Rome.

The Sack of Constantinople was originally in the Eastern Catholicism forum because it was split from another thread and was discussing Eastern Catholics’ take on it. It has since become an Eastern Orthodox/Roman Catholic thread and has been moved to the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

Posters are reminded to please bring questions or concerns to the administrative or moderation staff privately, and to report possible problems through the BPR feature or a PM.

 

[East_and_West]

Right, and my relatives came from Eastern Europe anyway. I’m pointing out that the Sack of Constantinople was wrong. It seems many would rather just ignore it like the West did for centuries and pretend it didn’t happen, rather than stand up and say it was wrong…

Why should we have anything to say about it? We weren’t involved. Neither were you. There is no threat of it happening again. Its not like its our nature to do those things.

 

[mardukm]

This started on a thread in ECathF, for what reason I don’t know, as it seems to involve the Orthodox and the Latins. I don’t know how it involves Easterners under Rome.

I believe it needs to be read and discussed by Eastern Catholics as it partly goes to the heart of their identity as Eastern Catholics.

Now, I don’t recall this being brought up to perpetuate the schism EXCEPT: the historical fact that it sealed it. After that the Romans (miscalled Greeks) couldn’t ignore the realities of 1054 anymore. That’s over a century of forbearance.

This doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion.

The end of it, for all of the pope crocodile tears, was to set up a Latin patriarch of Constantinople (which, unlike the Orthodox one, Rome gave recognition as being second in rank), joining the ranks of the Latin Patriarchs that the Crusaders had set up in the ancient sees of Antioch and Jerusalem: the one the pope appointed for Alexandria never set foot there, as they never conquered Egypt

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the EO Patriarch had fled Constantinople, and the Church needed a new one. As many Latins lived there, it seems understandable that the Latins would have a Latin Patriarch. In any case, I don’t think any of the Greeks were forced to become Latin, and they retained their churches and liturgy. Do you have any proof that the Latins Latinized during this period?

In Antioch, the EO Patriarch actually remained Patriarch for three years. I think it was his own decision to leave because he could not meet the needs of his mostly Latin subjects. Thereafter, the local Church selected its own Patriarch which the Pope approved.

In Jerusalem, the Latin Patriarch was set up by the secular power, not the Pope.

These patriarchs were not abolished until Vatican II, within the lifetime of many.

The Constantinopolitan and Antiochene Patriarchs became merely titular A LOOOOONG time ago, when there was no longer a significant Latin population in those regions to shepherd.

Now, the Latins vaunt the “Spirit of Vatican II,” and wonder why the Orthodox don’t forgive and forget. It’s not that we don’t: they remember and are wary, as we should be. We have a long history of “help” from the West.

Given the facts above, yes, many wonder why the EO don’t forgive and forget.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother East and West,

Actually it is charitable. Perhaps when they get over something that happened 800 years ago they will be able to grow as people.

Now, THAT is not very charitable.

Why should we have anything to say about it? We weren’t involved. Neither were you.

We have a responsibility as Christians to be cognizant of these evils so that it may never happen again.

There is no threat of it happening again. Its not like its our nature to do those things.

You’d be surprised what fallen human nature is capable of. Even today in the Middle East, Africa, and Ireland, Christians are killing other Christians. Having said that, however, I agree it is wrong for EO to hold a grudge against the Catholic CHURCH today for what Crusaders did centuries ago, and for something that was not even religiously motivated.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Melchior]

Dear brother Mel,

Your witness of forgiveness and understanding, given your Jewish background and how recent the persecutions of your people under the Nazis has been (similar to the experience of that Filipino Latin poster I mentioned earlier from the Japanese), is absolutely awesome and shines with the light of God! Many of our EO brethren can learn from you.

Abundant Blessings,
Marduk

Thank you, brother.

You are kinder than I deserve. But I appreciate it!

Every Blessing,

Mel

 

[Hesychios]

This subject pertains to the history of the Roman Catholic people and Eastern Catholic people of the Byzantine Tradition as much as to anyone else. The move of this thread into the “non”-Catholic section might suggest in the minds of some that it is “someone elses” issue, but not a Catholic one, and I think that is unfair to Byzantine Catholics, many of whom do indeed have an interest in this topic.

Michael

 

[Catherine_Grant]

I have to wonder why this subject was moved into the non-Catholic forum…

This subject pertains to the history of the Roman Catholic people and Eastern Catholic people of the Byzantine Tradition as much as to anyone else. The move might suggest in the minds of some that it is “someone elses” issue, but not a Catholic one, and I think that is unfair to Byzantine Catholics, many of whom do indeed have an interest in this topic.

Michael

Your Orthodox brother expressed unfounded concern that he wasn’t included in the conversation while on the Eastern Catholicism board. The thread has turned into a historical issue of what divides Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. It is of interest to Eastern Catholics and that’s why I left a lengthy redirect from the Eastern Catholicism forum.

All further questions or concerns on moderator activities is to be sent privately. Please return to the conversation at hand, which is the Sack of Constantinople.

 

[bobzills]

Actually it is charitable. Perhaps when they get over something that happened 800 years ago they will be able to grow as people.

Is it right to keep the loot from the sacking of Constantinople in Catholic Churches for 800 years ?

 

[mardukm]

Is it right to keep the loot from the sacking of Constantinople in Catholic Churches for 800 years ?

Are there any such treasures that are kept by the See of Rome?

Blessings

 

[Petergee]

Many Orthodox have ancestors that can be traced to those killed during the terrible sack of Constantinople.

And genealogists tell us that these people almost certainly also have ancestors who took part in the sacking. So it’s quite illogical for them to speak about it as something “they” did to “us”.

 

[Petergee]

Forgiveness and trust are two different things. Wouldn’t you agree brother?

If someone habitually wronged me, and I forgave him over and over again, I would continue to forgive, but could I trust him to never do it again?

What? When did this one egregious incident become a “habit” which was repeated and then forgiven over and over again?

 

[Petergee]

Even today in the Middle East, Africa, and Ireland, Christians are killing other Christians.

OK there may be some nominal Christians killing each other (not for reasons connected with religion) in the Congo and possibly other parts of Africa. But there are no Christians killing Christians in the Middle East nor Ireland AFAIK.

 

[bobzills]

Are there any such treasures that are kept by the See of Rome?

Blessings

I heard that St. Mark’s in Venice has a small portion of the treasures. St. Mark’s is a Catholic Church, but I don;t know who would have the title to the loot at this point in time.